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Post by franklin on Apr 12, 2010 13:35:48 GMT -5
Liberal imperialism Whoever wrote this article believed that the British empire was a benign force showering it’s blessings all over the world brining prosperity and progress to all corners of the globe. In the beginning of the 18th century the London Stock Market and the Bank of England were first important holders of the national debt and many schemes like the South Sea Company (which gave a great boost to the slave trade) were established to finance the debt and the excessive export of capital served to keep wealth away from the hands of the common person. Much of the investment were in places outside of the empire, so the informal empire added to the empire! “Overseas investment made Britan the world super power of the 19th century” www.docstoc.com/docs/3530515/%E2%80%9COverseas-investment-made-Britain-the-world-super-power-of-the-19th-century%E2%80%9D-Discuss
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Post by franklin on Apr 12, 2010 14:26:54 GMT -5
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Post by zarahan on Apr 13, 2010 18:48:20 GMT -5
Liberal imperialism Whoever wrote this article believed that the British empire was a benign force showering it’s blessings all over the world brining prosperity and progress to all corners of the globe. In the beginning of the 18th century the London Stock Market and the Bank of England were first important holders of the national debt and many schemes like the South Sea Company (which gave a great boost to the slave trade) were established to finance the debt and the excessive export of capital served to keep wealth away from the hands of the common person. Much of the investment were in places outside of the empire, so the informal empire added to the empire! “Overseas investment made Britan the world super power of the 19th century” www.docstoc.com/docs/3530515/%E2%80%9COverseas-investment-made-Britain-the-world-super-power-of-the-19th-century%E2%80%9D-DiscussIts a bit unclear what you are saying. How exactly did "excessive export of capital served to keep wealth away from the hands of the common person.."? The article you cite indicates rather that it was Britain's overseas investing that made the nation wealthy, and as spillover enriched many of the masses (I did not say 100% of the masses). Overseas investment in American timber or cotton , or German mines for example generated mo jobs back in the UK. And as the article notes, most of Britain's investment was in other developed economies -Europe and the US - not the colonies which absorbed a minority share of about 30-35%. Quote: ""In the early 19th century and particularly after 1815, the majority of Britain's overseas investments went to Europe, her wartime allies and France.." Can you give concrete examples of: a) Why you think export of capital was excessive.. and exactly how do you define excessive? b) Did such export indeed impoverish the common people? I wonder about this notion because per capita income in Britain was rising during the time period the 'overseas' article cites. So how were the masses getting poorer? Your idea may well be right but I think you need to clarify the analysis.
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Post by franklin on Apr 14, 2010 11:55:43 GMT -5
Because Brittan eventually fell behind the U.S. and Germany in many areas, and now the situation is similar in the United States falling behind. See the second post Edit: I really didn't make it very clear at all sorry about that. But see how it talks about the changing trading patterns on the first post. Also there was an informal empire on top of the empire This is from page 7 of the article at the end of the 2nd post, however the link probably won't work “The British Stock Market and British Economic Growth”, 1870- 1914 Richard S. Grossman Wesleyan Univesity, J. Bradford De Long U.C. Berkeley page 7 econ161.berkeley.edu/Econ_articles/Venice/GDVenice.pdf I'll reword what I said from the first post The empire showering it's blessings on the the world amounted to excessive export of capital, which meant not valuing investments into domestic technology and education, but many of the overseas investments were ways to finance the government debt and thus a way to maintain that debt. Today countries like China and Japan hold much of the national debt of the United States
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Post by franklin on Apr 15, 2010 12:24:40 GMT -5
This is a good article and the author concludes that the empire was good for both those who governed and the subject colonies and concludes that the empire was not a waste of money and that investors were investing rationally “The British Empire, 1870-1914: A Waste of Money?” Avner Offer The Economic History Review, New Series, Vol. 46, No. 2. (May, 1993), pp. 215-238 www.fcs.edu.uy/multi/phes/Offer%201993.pdfEven though that is kind of the opposite of what I'm talking about its good to show things with different perspectives This is from Adam Smith: I liked this part because it shows the common folk and possibly if it were not for the round about use of capital they would have been able to use it themselves. Adam Smith also gave an example about Brittan buying an excess amount of tobacco several times and that is an example that applies to many of the things that have gone on in history and gives some good perspective. In context of what he is saying Adam Smith said 1. domestic trade put forth the greatest amount of industry 2. And then 2nd came the direct foreign trade of consumption which is necessary 3. The last being the carrying trade. According to him none of these should be inhibited or forced but it is the monopoly that leads to things going out of proportionbooks.google.com/books?id=8k_K8rf2fnUC&pg=PA150#v=onepage&q&f=falseAdam Smith on how the tobacco monopoly unnaturally diverts capital from the country, and thus actually lessens the amounts that can be put into native industry books.google.com/books?id=8k_K8rf2fnUC&dq=&pg=PA249#v=onepage&q&f=falseIf you missed from the earlier post this is interesting "THE FAILURE OF FREE TRADE LIBERALISM - VICTORIAN BRITAIN" a-place-to-stand.blogspot.com/2009/06/failure-of-free-trade-liberalism.html
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Post by franklin on Apr 15, 2010 14:29:10 GMT -5
Notice these two factors that are contributing to the damage 1) The foodstuffs are subsidized 2) Aid to these countries is also doing great damage.
To sum it up the problem is a need for consumers for all the surplus food that is produced, so the problem is an overproduction of food. World hunger and obesity are both means by which more of this food will be consumed, so both are interconnected. There was massive confusion when I was talking about selling goods to Africa (in order to carry on an African holocaust) on the other forum but from the very beginning I meant the situation was comparable to war. War can stimulate the economy but there could be more efficient ways of doing things. Farmers have been destroying their crops for a long time in order to keep prices up so this is the explanation as to why in the United States overproduction becomes over consumption because there must be a way to raise more demand for foodJohn Hobson, "economic taproot of Imperialism" www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Hobson/hbsnImp7.html100 years later This is a great article "Profits before people: The great African liquidation sale" 5 November 2009 farmlandgrab.org/8757"With cheap food imports, Haiti can’t feed itself U.S. policies encouraging low tariffs on imports destroyed local agriculture" www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35967561/ns/world_news-americas//Captain says:
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Post by franklin on Apr 24, 2010 12:33:03 GMT -5
I just found this video that I was looking for about aid hurting Haiti and what was interesting was I didn't know aid was doing that much damage, they have huge amounts of rice stored, the aid by itself is doing much damage. What needs to be stressed here is that even if governments are simply tools for certain people to make money, their schemes would not be worth it if they didn't have the government as a tool, as certain people are certainly profiting from this Haiti Wants Food Aid to Stop?" www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar-2b9Xtj2I Also see thread "The epicness of the African slave trade" which also talks about flooding of African societies with goods thus causing great damage and thus forcing them into reliance on trade with Europe egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=32
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Post by franklin on May 27, 2010 15:54:51 GMT -5
As another source showed earlier in 1853 70 percent of the London Stock Exchange was government debt, this is also an interesting article. The article talks about how great effort was put into separating the London stock Exchange from the provincial ones, so that people would be forced to go through London to trade securities so they can be charged fees. This also talks about inefficiency because the London brokers went through great trouble to avoid the use of telegraphs and telephones in order to prevent the integration of markets. And they went through great trouble to restrict the use of the ticker tape, even when they had one they put a lot of restrictions on it. On page 16 the article even describes the introduction of the telephone in the late 1870s as a threat the management of the stock exchang"The London Stock Exchange and the British Securities Market, 1850-19I4 By R. C. MICHIE from The Economic History Review, New Series, Vol. 38, No. 1 (Feb., 1985), aviewofhistory.weebly.com/uploads/4/4/1/8/4418968/london_securities.pdfElectronic page 3 [However, even as late as 1840, activity in these was completely dwarfed by that in the obligations of the British and foreign governments. For example, of the 1.3 billion (in British ponds) securities known in the London market in 1840, only 11 per cent had not been issued by governments, and, of that, much consisted of such quasi-government organizations as the East India Company, the South Sea Company, and the Bank of England] The ticker tape and telephone had made the markets more integrated which disturbed members of the London stock exchange page 17
So in the 1900s they eventually passed acts to undo the work of the ticker tape and telephone
page 19
[These measures meant that the domestic market for securities was beginning to operate less efficiently, because the unrestricted communication between London dealers and provincial brokers had been replaced by one which had to go through London brokers and bear commission charges]
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