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Post by anansi on Aug 16, 2010 22:28:35 GMT -5
I am laying down an open challenge to all E.S.R members..to discontinue the use of the term Nubia and Nubian when discussing the people south of the Kemitic boarder and even within kmt it self, especially going back to pre-Roman times lets identify who the Kemites were fighting or trading and making alliance with by name, I am well aware that most articles and journals that we read from will say Nubians,but this forum is fill with big brains lets dig deeper here is an example I was having a discussion over at E/S and Djehuti had this to say. The Kushites themselves were allied with a nomad warrior group from the eastern desert known as Antiu. In fact it was the dead body of an Antiu chieftain and NOT a Kushite whom Thutmose I hung from the prow of his boat in victory. Obviously the Antiu were more than just a 'nuisance' to the Egyptians and their national security. Of course throughout the New Kingdom, the Medjay held an honored place in Egyptian society not only as soldiers but as policmen to the point that 'Medjay' became a nickname for police. So obviously the Egyptians did not generalize when it came to 'Nubians' but were very keen to distinguish and differentiate between the various groups. And yes, even some Egyptian royal families were of 'Nubian' ancestry. There is speculation that even the 17th and descendant 18th dynasty was of Nubian ancestry as well due to the features of some 17th dynasty royals. In fact some Egyptologists believe the reason why the Medjay were so closely aligned to the 17th and 18th dynasty was because of familial relations. www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003433Now the highlighted portion how many of us has seen that sentence somewhere and others even used that as proof that the Kemities had to be of a different" race" than the so-called" Nubians" "Bernal also believes that Egypt was essentially African, and therefore black. But he does not say what we are to make of the historical accounts of Egyptian pharaohs campaigning against black neighbors to the south, in the Land of Kush, as when Tuthmosis I of Egypt, around 1510 B.C., annihilated a black Kushite army at the Third Cataract and came home with the body of a black Kushite prince hanging upside down from the prow of his ship. Perhaps Bernal thinks of this as African tribal warfare?" Vermeule is clearly arguing that the very savagery of the fighting between Egyptians and Nubians proves that they must have belonged to different "races." I can find no other way to interpret Vermeule's argument except as an expression of the old notion that a "natural antipathy" exists between people of different races. www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1992/mar/26/the-world-turned-upside-down/That's why we have to be better than that^ a trained professional singular laziness to actually identify people will cause all kinds of mis-statements.
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Post by clydewin98 on Aug 17, 2010 10:13:00 GMT -5
It is almost impossible to do this in the real world. In the real world Nubia refers to a specific geographical area accepted by scholars. As a result, you have to use this term so other researchers will know what place you are referring too.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Aug 17, 2010 11:52:33 GMT -5
Sorry to say it but Nubia has to be retained at some level. There are dozens of obscure polities south of Egypt that nobody really knows about largely because when they show up in AEL texts there's no context just a name.
I propose, where known and possible, the correct name be used followed by Nubia in parenthesis; e.g. Seyala (in "Nubia"), Kush (a "Nubia"), TaSeti ("Nubia") proper.
Also if Nubia isn't used it we will miss surfer hits because only specialists would use the precise terms instead of Nubia (which technically is just what's now Lake Nasser and its immediate environ not the whole of Sudan like most take the word to mean).
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Aug 17, 2010 12:02:50 GMT -5
I agree with Al Takruri:
A lot of times they ae vague. As to conclusions that Egyptians and Nubians were of different races because of warfare..... Well then I guess Europe is full of different races because the majority of their history is warfare against their neighbors and within the countries between competing kingdomes. Just further example of how logic gets turned on the ass end when it comes to Africa and Africans.
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Post by nebsen on Aug 17, 2010 16:06:43 GMT -5
I'm in full agreement with Anansi, on this one ! From my understanding, Kush would be the correct use in relation to portions of the ancient Kingdoms which is now called the Sudan.
It was thus called Kush, by the other ancient, nations of the time. Even in the Bible (which I understand should not always be understood for historical accuracy ) was spelled Cush ,instead of K Also the term Ta-Seti could also be used.
I feel, maybe if the historical time frames could be broken down, so one can understand how the different names, & terms, for ancient Kush changed over time ; by the super powers of the day, such as Rome, who popularized the term Nubia, because of it's relation too it's (Nub) gold mines.
Another area of confusion is the term ""Ethiopia which the Greeks used to denote both Khemt & Kush & probably the rest of East & equatorial Africa, "Land Of Brunt Faces".
The nation of the Sudan is huge, with a vast, vast, history, with different regions, ethnic groups, & time lines. If we can begin too understand this varied history, & it's time lines, we can better put names, & terms, into context.
In one way the term "Nubia" popularized by our young, has given them something to hold on too, & to be proud of ! Even if the term is not the correct one, for the history they adore.
So should we not educate them & others on the term Kush ? I say of course we should," Knowledge Is Power"! ;)P.S. To my mind "Nubia", speaks more to "Myth....." so lets take it out of the Mythical into the real world ,of a land ,& civilization, called Kush.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Aug 17, 2010 17:49:49 GMT -5
Kush is little better than Nubia. And why should people who are not Nubians be proud of the word? People should be proud of the name of the land that's actually their own.
Wawat was not Kush. Irthet was not Kush. Yam was not Kush. Khenthonefer was not Kush. The Yntyw were not Kushites. They're not interchangeables.
The term that covered them all, including TaSeti and Kush, was TaNehesi a technical term that will only obscure things for most.
But to each his own, I guess.
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Post by egyptianplanet on Aug 17, 2010 19:03:03 GMT -5
You guys are over analyzing.
To the land south of Egypt was Nubia. And south of Nubia laid the empire of Kush.
Those who were part of Egypt were called Egyptians, those who were part of Nubia were Nubians and those a part of Kush were Kushites. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by anansi on Aug 17, 2010 20:01:31 GMT -5
You guys are over analyzing. To the land south of Egypt was Nubia. And south of Nubia laid the empire of Kush. Those who were part of Egypt were called Egyptians, those who were part of Nubia were Nubians and those a part of Kush were Kushites. Nothing more, nothing less. No not over analyzing, just trying to untangle a much muddled region and people, it is one of the few areas of study to be so muddled the areas called Mesopotamia or Meso-America have similar over-lapping civilizations and polities but hardly anyone confuses a Mayan with an Aztec with an "Olmec" or a Sumerian with a Babylonian with an Assyrian , scholars take the time to distinguish one from the other,Even the civilizations of the western Sudan the situation is not jumbled Ghana,Mali, Songhay and others over-lapped but they are distinguishable. Nubia proper was the gold producing region of Kmt it was also where the first nome or state was located Kush and others came later to expand in that area. I know it is extremely difficult given the over whelming use of the term for both layman like myself and professionals but it should start somewhere, there was a time when the word Kmt was hardly used in place of Egypt, now that term is catching on in the layman community, also on my wish list is replacing African names to places in Africa and in this instance the Nile Valley Wose or nowe instead of Thebes or Luxor and so on. One way of doing this like Al-Takruri suggested is to lore them in with the name Nubian or Nubia but use the correct names of the people involved, btw I have no intention of having the people who today call themselves Nubians to give up their name because that also have a history attached to it.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Aug 18, 2010 7:21:50 GMT -5
You guys are over analyzing. To the land south of Egypt was Nubia. And south of Nubia laid the empire of Kush. Those who were part of Egypt were called Egyptians, those who were part of Nubia were Nubians and those a part of Kush were Kushites. Nothing more, nothing less. No not over analyzing, just trying to untangle a much muddled region and people, it is one of the few areas of study to be so muddled the areas called Mesopotamia or Meso-America have similar over-lapping civilizations and polities but hardly anyone confuses a Mayan with an Aztec with an "Olmec" or a Sumerian with a Babylonian with an Assyrian , scholars take the time to distinguish one from the other,Even the civilizations of the western Sudan the situation is not jumbled Ghana,Mali, Songhay and others over-lapped but they are distinguishable. Nubia proper was the gold producing region of Kmt it was also where the first nome or state was located Kush and others came later to expand in that area. I know it is extremely difficult given the over whelming use of the term for both layman like myself and professionals but it should start somewhere, there was a time when the word Kmt was hardly used in place of Egypt, now that term is catching on in the layman community, also on my wish list is replacing African names to places in Africa and in this instance the Nile Valley Wose or nowe instead of Thebes or Luxor and so on. One way of doing this like Al-Takruri suggested is to lore them in with the name Nubian or Nubia but use the correct names of the people involved, btw I have no intention of having the people who today call themselves Nubians to give up their name because that also have a history attached to it. I do agree with you. The problem is that often times the references to the exact peoples are not clearly stated, so there's no way to know exactly who is being spoken of. I think we have to keep in mind that when such texts were written it was in the context of its day. They didn't need to be specific because everyone knew who the kingdom was at war with. They had no idea that one day people around the world would be analyzing their inscriptions. This is why we can't totally get rid of the term. However, it should be taught that "Nubia" was an umbrella term that included peoples of various ethnic groups and that they were not just one people. Kush was a political entity, but before it came along, these people were not united under one government. I guess it was more like Greece where each ethnic group was an independent political and geographic entity. So wherever the exact name is known, it should be used. The blame falls on scholars who were too lazy to translate exact names and just wrote Nubia. This is why today we are all struggling to wrap our heads around who these peoples actually were. I think the first think that needs to be done is to realize that Nubian doesn't speak to one unified ethnic group, but was a term applied broadly to many different ethnic groups. Its like using the term "Native American" instead of Mohawk, Cherokee, Penobscot etc.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Aug 18, 2010 7:24:31 GMT -5
Kush is little better than Nubia. And why should people who are not Nubians be proud of the word? People should be proud of the name of the land that's actually their own. Wawat was not Kush. Irthet was not Kush. Yam was not Kush. Khenthonefer was not Kush. The Yntyw were not Kushites. They're not interchangeables. The term that covered them all, including TaSeti and Kush, was TaNehesi a technical term that will only obscure things for most. But to each his own, I guess. What exactly does Nehesi mean? In many texts its translated as "black" or "negro". I know this is coming through the filter of the translator because Egyptians didn't refer to people by concepts of race, so was it an ethnic group or a geographical term, like the way we use "Middle East"?
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jari
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Post by jari on Aug 18, 2010 9:13:17 GMT -5
You guys are over analyzing. To the land south of Egypt was Nubia. And south of Nubia laid the empire of Kush. Those who were part of Egypt were called Egyptians, those who were part of Nubia were Nubians and those a part of Kush were Kushites. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not true, First off Nubia as an entity did not exist in Ancient Times, what existed was Southern Nilotic Tribes seperated by so called Cateracts and Desert. The Egyptians were clear on the fact that several different Tribes existed, some formed Powerful states that threatened the Egyptian Royal House such as Kerma, Kush, etc. While others were Nomadic and friendly such as Medjay, Yam, Punt and several more. The problem is that people think Nubia equals one Jet black race of people, or that Egyptians equals one set of people..etc. In Ancient times as well as Modern several Tribes ranging in features and skin tone were under one King. Is'nt it not rumored that several Kings ruled Egypt at certain points. Anyway back to topic I think Nubia is fine to refer to the land South of Egypt, although it is a blanket term as Takruri says only people trained and knowledgeble will know what Ta-Seti, Neheshy, etc is. The minute we start to become TOOO professional we will lose folks who stumble on this site out of curiosity if we start talking about NHSY this NHSY that and if we are going to refrain from using Nubia might as well throw off Egypt and Egyptian too...see what I mean. The fact remains Europeans started this field of study and we still are playing in their backyard, I know many hate to admit it but thats the truth.
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jari
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Post by jari on Aug 18, 2010 9:18:15 GMT -5
Kush is little better than Nubia. And why should people who are not Nubians be proud of the word? People should be proud of the name of the land that's actually their own. Wawat was not Kush. Irthet was not Kush. Yam was not Kush. Khenthonefer was not Kush. The Yntyw were not Kushites. They're not interchangeables. The term that covered them all, including TaSeti and Kush, was TaNehesi a technical term that will only obscure things for most. But to each his own, I guess. What exactly does Nehesi mean? In many texts its translated as "black" or "negro". I know this is coming through the filter of the translator because Egyptians didn't refer to people by concepts of race, so was it an ethnic group or a geographical term, like the way we use "Middle East"? In my opinion Neheshy would mean "Southerner" again it makes no sense that during the time of Sesotris a so called black or Negro King is calling other Negros and barring them from entering Egypt. Its obvious he barred his enemy tribes from the South who he felt were a threat to his Royal House in Egypt. Again Im not Egyptian but Southerner is just as good as Negro for a meaning of Neheshy..
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Post by egyptianplanet on Aug 18, 2010 9:56:41 GMT -5
jari - the Egyptians didn't utilize the land of Nubia for gold until the New Kingdom when they expanded their lands. Before then they traded with those to the South of them until they used new technologies to finally subjugate them.
Also fair to point out Egyptians referred to their land being overrun by people known as "Nubians" to the South. You guys are over analyzing. Why can't Southerners also be known as Nubians? Sheesh.
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jari
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Post by jari on Aug 18, 2010 10:20:26 GMT -5
jari - the Egyptians didn't utilize the land of Nubia for gold until the New Kingdom when they expanded their lands. Before then they traded with those to the South of them until they used new technologies to finally subjugate them. Also fair to point out Egyptians referred to their land being overrun by people known as "Nubians" to the South. You guys are over analyzing. Why can't Southerners also be known as Nubians? Sheesh. First off I never said anything about Gold, you might have me mistaken for someone else. Second the Migration of Southern "Nubians" into Egypt goes back to predynastic times as well Egyptian Migration into Nubia, hence the last Pharoah Nechtanebo fleeing to Nubia for his new home. I am aware of Egyptian complaints of Asiatic Tribes over running Egypt but not Nubians unless you can proved proof. Thrid I never said to replace Nubia, read my post. I stated clearly the the European began this feild of study, If we throw away Nubian then why not throw away Egyptian, Lybian, Asiatic, Luxor, Memphis, Karnack, why not throw away Muslim/Arab terms like "Abu Simbel", "Mastaba" , "Tell El Armana"..etc. This is way too much fuss, again revisionism should not be our goal, I agree that using Neheshy when nessesary and informing lurkers of the proper terms and tribal names but pin pointing "Nubian" wont help more than saying Kmt. a million time will, people still call Kmt Egypt and TaNeshey Nubia...Lets get over it and accept that Europeans were the mastermind and originators of this feild of study, if not for them "Egyptsearch" would not exist.
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Post by anansi on Aug 18, 2010 11:05:55 GMT -5
What exactly does Nehesi mean? In many texts its translated as "black" or "negro". I know this is coming through the filter of the translator because Egyptians didn't refer to people by concepts of race, so was it an ethnic group or a geographical term, like the way we use "Middle East"? In my opinion Neheshy would mean "Southerner" again it makes no sense that during the time of Sesotris a so called black or Negro King is calling other Negros and barring them from entering Egypt. Its obvious he barred his enemy tribes from the South who he felt were a threat to his Royal House in Egypt. Again Im not Egyptian but Southerner is just as good as Negro for a meaning of Neheshy.. Yes but who was he barring? was he including Medjay, puntites,or everyone south of his boarder? Mentuhoptep 11 Dyn.He according to Rogers called himself first born Nehesy Then there was Hatshepsut's powerful chancellor and friend Nehesy. While another a King who ruled during Hyksos era called Nehesy ruled in Avaris . Then there was Panehesy was the 'Chief servitor of the Aten in the temple of Aten in Akhetaten' ('Second Prophet of the Lord of the Two Lands'). He was also the 'Seal-bearer of Lower Egypt en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panehesywiki sourced for convenience..the above is OK. And then you have another Panehesy Viceroy of "Nubia", who caused nothing but grief for Ramses XI during the Year Of The Hyena. So if Nehesy roughly translate as being southerner or of southern origin I can see that but it still does not specify who they were addressing..Nahesy= Negro naaw I ain't buying that no Kemite would know what a Negro was supposed to be and that would imply that they were familiar with our modern race construct.
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