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Post by sundiata on Mar 17, 2012 11:38:10 GMT -5
After scouring the primary sources from medieval Arabic writers, I've come to the conclusion that we've basically been had. In an attempt to concretize the term 'Sudan', and present it on etic grounds, scholars often look to equate it as being the land south of Egypt, or their conception of "sub-Saharan Africa". The problem is that this doesn't work. The Arab authors explicitly inform us that "the land of the Blacks" extended into Lybia and Egypt. A few documents that affirm this conclusion are:
Leo Africanus, who wrote:
^El-Guichet is Leo's way of pronouncing the Arabic "al-wahat", meaning "The Oases" and referring specifically to the Western desert of Egypt (Leo claimed El-Guichet was 120 miles west of the Luxor).
Al-Biruni wrote:
^Likely referring to either the same location or general area.
Sort of off point, but another quote basically shows that Berber and "Black" were not mutually exclusive, even though Al-Idrisi goes through pains to explain how Berber-speakers came to be this way.
Al-Idrisi writes:
"The people of Baghama are Black Berbers. The sun has burned their skins and changed their color, but their language is that of the Berbers."
Ibn Faqwal writes something similar with respect to the Banu Tadamek, oppositely going through pains to explain why a people thought to have come from the Sudan can have lighter complexions.
^The latter two quotes evince a confused ideology that adheres to emergent Hamitic principles. Ibn Haqwal for instance, goes on to say that the Banu Tadamek are descendant from Ham on their mother's side and are therefore Sudan. Al-Idrisi thinks that it is the sun that is the result of the Baghama people's blackness, which is curious as others equate Baghama with the land of the Zaghawa!
Indeed, Leo Africanus actually included the Zaghawa among the "5 tribes of Lybia", another case of "Lybian Sudan".
"Estos desierios no tienen entre nostros ningun nombre, anque se dividen en cincopartes y cada una de ellas toma el nombre del pueblo que la habita o sea: de los Numidas, los cuales se dividen igualmente en cinco grupos, que son: Zanega, Guanziga, Terga , Lenta, y Berdeoa [Teda/Tebu-Zaghawa]".
^If anyone can fill me in on what Leo meant by "Guanziga", that would be helpful.
I guess my main point is to show that Sudan and Bidan were very fluid concepts and Arabic writers themselves had trouble concretizing the terms when they ran into contradictions. Those like Leo Africanus who weren't looking to explain what they saw/knew and simply recorded these observations in passing, like in their descriptions of the "Black" populations of Egypt, are invaluable because they allow us to interpret what's going on for our selves without the burden of sifting through obfuscating nonsense.
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jari
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Post by jari on Mar 21, 2012 8:01:39 GMT -5
Nice find, this only confirms what I have been saying all along, that Sudan/Mehgreb and Berber/"Black African" were not mutually exclusive and alot of our current understand is based on biased mistranslations of Arabic sources. For example Sudan is translated as "Negroland" as if the Saharan and North African communities never had blacks or so called Negros in them.
This is why I say we as Africans need to do our own research. I remember debating Garrig on this sissue, how he somehow felt superior and comfortable in his own ignorance on this subject. He basically copied and pasted Eurocentric sits thinking that would be enough to give him the edge because he was able to get away with it on less academic sits like Topics. In the end my very basic and brief research nearly overwhelemed him, he could not keep a concrete argument,.
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Post by africurious on Mar 21, 2012 10:22:04 GMT -5
I think an important point also is that the area bilad al-sudan referred to probably changed as the population changed. For example, the greeks would refer to widely separated areas as "aethiopia". Basically, any where the population was predominantly black or very dark would be called aethiopia. I think it was Strabo or some other roman/greek who said writers way before their time saw the area on the mediterranean coast near the present day borders of syria and turkey as the border of aethiopia. So it seems syria and the levant stopped being referred to as aethiopia after a certain time, probably because many non-black/dark skinned people moved there and changed the complexion of the population. Maybe a similar thing could've happened to the bilad al-sudan, with all those non-dark skinned people moving into north africa (much more than the amount who'd moved there before the arabs invaded) over the course of centuries.
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Post by sundiata on Mar 21, 2012 11:11:59 GMT -5
^Indeed. I'm pretty sure many more references exist outside of this that muddies up the water but westerners and their neat little categories remain an interference. There seems to be a concerted effort to reconcile the emic with the etic by acting as though these concepts (aethiopia, "sudan") coincide with their colonial/post-colonial ideas of racial geography. If I recall, and I may be mistaken since I can't track down the reference, but I believe it was Virgil who talked about the "aethiopians of southern Egypt". Not that it matters since aethiopian just means "burned face", and not "Black", but it again reveals an oversimplification.
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jari
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Post by jari on Mar 21, 2012 11:50:34 GMT -5
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jari
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Post by jari on Mar 21, 2012 12:00:48 GMT -5
More on Sudan including parts of Egypt, Fezzan and Lybia etc. via Arabic sources here), and it claims that medieval Arabs classified native Egyptians as "Sudan" (blacks). Here is the excerpt in question: - Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.-Al Jahiz More.. Sahrans, Sanhadja, Megrebians etc.. -Ibn Butlan 11th Century.. Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”. -11th Century See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342. ......... The Taureq Bani Tanamek were counted among the Sanhadja............ Description of Yussef Tachfin leader of the Almoravid Berbers(Sanhadja).. -Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work, The Sanhadja would have been dark to Meduim Reddish brown with Woolly hair.. [ - Frigi et al.
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Post by truthcentric on Mar 21, 2012 12:34:06 GMT -5
I believe it was Virgil who talked about the "aethiopians of southern Egypt" While searching for that quotation, I came up with a description of Egyptian auxiliaries serving in Antony's armor at the Battle of Actium as "aethiops" ( see line 14).
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Post by azrur on Nov 24, 2013 20:47:41 GMT -5
More on Sudan including parts of Egypt, Fezzan and Lybia etc. via Arabic sources - Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.-Al Jahiz china pakistan and india
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Post by anansi on Nov 24, 2013 21:06:21 GMT -5
More on Sudan including parts of Egypt, Fezzan and Lybia etc. via Arabic sources - Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores.-Al Jahiz china pakistan and india Yes ancient writers sometimes see Asiatic blacks with African blacks as one and the same.
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Post by azrur on Nov 24, 2013 21:30:21 GMT -5
Yes ancient writers sometimes see Asiatic blacks with African blacks as one and the same. and what are the asiatic blacks of pakistan and china? in india it is those people on andaman right
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Post by zarahan on Mar 8, 2014 12:31:42 GMT -5
Good info Sun. It would be nice to know when Bilad al Sudan as only referring to the south of Egypt first came into Western discourse. I have no doubt it was used by some as part of the "sub-Saharan" true negro model, just as an artificial separation between "Nubia" and Kemet is pumped up by some, when in fact the Nubians are the closest cousins to the Egyptians. After scouring the primary sources from medieval Arabic writers, I've come to the conclusion that we've basically been had. In an attempt to concretize the term 'Sudan', and present it on etic grounds, scholars often look to equate it as being the land south of Egypt, or their conception of "sub-Saharan Africa". The problem is that this doesn't work. The Arab authors explicitly inform us that "the land of the Blacks" extended into Lybia and Egypt. A few documents that affirm this conclusion are: Leo Africanus, who wrote: ^El-Guichet is Leo's way of pronouncing the Arabic "al-wahat", meaning "The Oases" and referring specifically to the Western desert of Egypt (Leo claimed El-Guichet was 120 miles west of the Luxor). Al-Biruni wrote: ^Likely referring to either the same location or general area. Sort of off point, but another quote basically shows that Berber and "Black" were not mutually exclusive, even though Al-Idrisi goes through pains to explain how Berber-speakers came to be this way. Al-Idrisi writes: "The people of Baghama are Black Berbers. The sun has burned their skins and changed their color, but their language is that of the Berbers." Ibn Faqwal writes something similar with respect to the Banu Tadamek, oppositely going through pains to explain why a people thought to have come from the Sudan can have lighter complexions. ^The latter two quotes evince a confused ideology that adheres to emergent Hamitic principles. Ibn Haqwal for instance, goes on to say that the Banu Tadamek are descendant from Ham on their mother's side and are therefore Sudan. Al-Idrisi thinks that it is the sun that is the result of the Baghama people's blackness, which is curious as others equate Baghama with the land of the Zaghawa! Indeed, Leo Africanus actually included the Zaghawa among the "5 tribes of Lybia", another case of "Lybian Sudan". "Estos desierios no tienen entre nostros ningun nombre, anque se dividen en cincopartes y cada una de ellas toma el nombre del pueblo que la habita o sea: de los Numidas, los cuales se dividen igualmente en cinco grupos, que son: Zanega, Guanziga, Terga , Lenta, y Berdeoa [ Teda/Tebu-Zaghawa]". ^If anyone can fill me in on what Leo meant by "Guanziga", that would be helpful. I guess my main point is to show that Sudan and Bidan were very fluid concepts and Arabic writers themselves had trouble concretizing the terms when they ran into contradictions. Those like Leo Africanus who weren't looking to explain what they saw/knew and simply recorded these observations in passing, like in their descriptions of the "Black" populations of Egypt, are invaluable because they allow us to interpret what's going on for our selves without the burden of sifting through obfuscating nonsense.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Mar 9, 2014 2:44:21 GMT -5
Yes ancient writers sometimes see Asiatic blacks with African blacks as one and the same. and what are the asiatic blacks of pakistan and china? in india it is those people on andaman right No, they meant the whole Indian Sub continent. They considered Indians eastern Eithiopians. They would decribe them as being black like Eithiopians, but with straight hair. China probably refered to a larger area than the present day nation of China. It could have included south east Asia where a lot of black skinned people can still be found. Back then, there was no Pakistan. It was all Hindustan and even in Pakistan you will find very dark people.
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Post by azrur on Mar 9, 2014 5:25:33 GMT -5
and what are the asiatic blacks of pakistan and china? in india it is those people on andaman right No, they meant the whole Indian Sub continent. They considered Indians eastern Eithiopians. They would decribe them as being black like Eithiopians, but with straight hair. China probably refered to a larger area than the present day nation of China. It could have included south east Asia where a lot of black skinned people can still be found. Back then, there was no Pakistan. It was all Hindustan and even in Pakistan you will find very dark people. what does black like eithiopian mean i have seen an indian people before and they do not look same as eithiopian so the china it include south east Asia but what about present day nation of China
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Mar 9, 2014 22:49:39 GMT -5
No, they meant the whole Indian Sub continent. They considered Indians eastern Eithiopians. They would decribe them as being black like Eithiopians, but with straight hair. China probably refered to a larger area than the present day nation of China. It could have included south east Asia where a lot of black skinned people can still be found. Back then, there was no Pakistan. It was all Hindustan and even in Pakistan you will find very dark people. what does black like eithiopian mean i have seen an indian people before and they do not look same as eithiopian so the china it include south east Asia but what about present day nation of China Not that they have the same features, but that they have the same skin color. Indians for the most part are just as dark as Sudanese and Eithiopians. Some of them are even darker. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any dark skinned populations in the modern nation of China. If they're there I haven't seen them.
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Post by azrur on Mar 11, 2014 16:12:24 GMT -5
what does black like eithiopian mean i have seen an indian people before and they do not look same as eithiopian so the china it include south east Asia but what about present day nation of China Not that they have the same features, but that they have the same skin color. Indians for the most part are just as dark as Sudanese and Eithiopians. Some of them are even darker. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any dark skinned populations in the modern nation of China. If they're there I haven't seen them. sudanese and eithiopian they are to be most darkest skinned people on the earth? (excluding a one like alexander siddig) indian people they can get dark brown some time but it look like a different skin tone than blacks there is a lot of burmese people here they are like that in the photo and real small but burma is not present in the present day china but it is on mainland
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