Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2013 21:12:52 GMT -5
This may be lengthy and hard to follow but those who are into DNA will appreciate this. Translation follows for the layman. They are one step closer to admitting hg-H1 etc is African. This is the first report I have seen where they admitted that possibility.
================
Post-Last Glacial Maximum Expansion From Iberia to North Africa Revealed by Fine Characterization of mtDNA H Haplogroup in Tunisia (2008)
Lotfi Cherni, Luýsa Pereira2,
MAJOR CONTRIBUTIONS from historical migrations to this Iberian genetic imprint in Tunisia were RULED OUT by the mtDNA gene pool similarity between Berber/Arab/cosmopolitan samples and some ‘‘Andalusian’’ communities, settled by the descendents of the ‘‘Moors’’ who once lived in Iberia for 10 centuries (between 8th and 17th centuries), before being expelled to Tunisia
TRANSLATION: No evidence of migration of Europeans to the Maghreb(Tunisia) after 700BC. The “documented” expulsion may not be numerically accurate. The bottom-line is, the so called “expelled” Moors have identical DNA as those that never left.
closeness between some cultures, such as Iberomaurisian and Capsian (Newman, 1995), Iberia COULD potentially have contributed some H lineages to the North African pool, during post- LGM expansion or after. As it is possible to a large extent to distinguish between Iberian and Near Eastern/Caucasian/Arabian Peninsula H pools, the fine characterization of this haplogroup could be very informative to the discussion
TRANSLATION: There are Near East hg-H and European hg-H. It is possible to distinguish them.
In recent times, the most important population movement from Iberia to North Africa resulted from the expulsion of the ‘‘Moors’’ residing in Andalusia, South Spain, after Granada’s capitulation (in 1492 AC). Tunisia received a large number of immigrants, estimated to have been over 80,000 ‘‘Andalusians’’
TRANSLATION: According to documents the expelled Moors settled in Andulsia in Tunisia, after living close to >700yrs in Europe.
The remaining Eurasian pool was diversified, in almost all samples, but as observed in the Northern Mediterranean margin, the highest frequency was attained by haplogroup H, reaching frequencies between 16% in Kesra and 45% in Skira, both the small Berber communities (see Fig. 2).
TRANSLATION: Berbers have one of the highest frequencies of hg-H
Tunisian diversity can be classified as a sub-set of European diversity, and no signs of local expansions were detected in North Africa alone OR SHARED WITH NEAR EAST AND CAUCASUS. Both diversities, observed in the coding region and in HVSI, were used to estimate the time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) for the most frequent H sub-haplogroups in Tunisia (Table 3). Comparing these estimates with the ones obtained in Pereira et al. (2005b), ages were younger in Tunisia, ALTHOUGH NOT SO APART IN THE TIME SCALE
TRANSLATION: or alternatively European diversity can be classified as a sub-set of Tunisians. The estimated age of hg-H for both Tunisia and Iberia is about the same. But since we are Europeans and we are reluctant to admit hg-H originated in Tunisia. Also North Africans are NOT Arabs.
IT IS TEMPTING TO INFER THAT THIS GENETIC CLOSENESS OF ‘‘ANDALUSIAN’’ VILLAGES TO NORTH AFRICAN POPULATIONS SEEMS TO FAVOR A KIND OF GENETIC ISOLATION OF THE DESCENTS OF ARABS AND BERBERS THAT PARTICIPATED IN THE ISLAMIC CONQUEST OF IBERIA IN THE 7TH CENTURY AC (Abdul-Wahab, 1917) during the 10 centuries they remained there. But some posterior demographic events could have strengthened the North African typical background of the migrants when returned to Tunisia, such as its known effective size reduction in the 18th century due to epidemics and immigration, and interbreeding with autochthonous people which is supposed to have taken place only from the 19th century onwards. In fact, the arriving ‘‘Andalusians’’ established themselves in an inhabited region, agriculturally rich in Tunisia, having Qalaat El Andalous served in 1,609–1,614 as the platform for the final repartition into North Tunisia (Abdul-Wahab, 1917).
TRANSLATION: If the data and numbers are true then the Moors remained sexually isolated for >1000yrs while in Europe. Or!!, they went hog-wild with the natives when they returned. to North Africa. Bottom-line they carry no “recent” European genetic material and no Levantine genetic material. This is supported also by DNATrbies 2013 release.
characterization of 1,580 bp in the mtDNA coding region showed the ALMOST TOTAL SHARING OF HAPLOTYPES BETWEEN TUNISIANS AND IBERIANS, being those a limited subset of these. ESTIMATED AGES WERE ALSO YOUNGER FOR TUNISIAN H1 AND H3 LINEAGES, and although they cannot be interpreted as dates for expansion in North Africa, as no signs of local diversity were detected, they **SEEM **to support that NORTH AFRICA WAS the receiver rather than THE BIRTH PLACE OF H1 AND H3.
TRANSLATION: Speculation and hesitation, interesting choice of words; QUOTE:”They **SEEM **to support that NORTH AFRICA WAS the receiver rather than THE BIRTH PLACE OF H1 AND H3” It is unclear which migrated where but although North Africans have a wider and earlier time age we decided on Iberia as the origin, why, because we say so. Ignore the fact that Tunisia hg-H is older for unclassified H and H3.
A CONSIDERABLE proportion of H Tunisian lineages (25%) could not be precisely affiliated, even after the characterization of 1,580 bp. This was also observed in the general European screen (Pereira et al., 2005b). Nonetheless, AGES ESTIMATED FOR ALL H LINEAGES EXCEPT H1 AND H3 SHOWED YOUNGER AGES IN TUNISIA THAN IN EUROPE, NOT EXCLUDING THAT EUROPE COULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED ALSO TO H* GROUP.
TRANSLATION: Quote:
I repeat: “AGES ESTIMATED FOR ALL H LINEAGES *****EXCEPT H1 AND H3 ****SHOWED YOUNGER AGES IN TUNISIA THAN IN EUROPE”. Ie H1 and H3 are NOT younger in Tunisia compared to Europe. They are using the OTHER hg-H lines to determine origin. In addition Tunisia has a substantially greater frequency of unclassified hg-H(H*). More so than Europe. But they continue to make the assumption it came from Europe. Talk about blind arrogance and ignorance. Everything points to Tunisia as the origin of hg-H but they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep it in Europe. They are not going to admit it as long as they do not have to. Notice they did not mention the frequency of H* in Europe, but it was disclosed in that Enefaraa(?) et al table I posted. If memory serves me right I believe it was around 5%.
The UNDISTINGUISHABLE H SUB-HAPLOGROUP profile between ‘‘Andalusians’’ and other North African communities DOES NOT support a strong HISTORICAL contribution of an Iberian imprint in North Africa. The post- LGM expansion from Iberia, which resettled Europe, must have also been the movement responsible for the H sub-haplogroup presence in North Africa
TRANSLATION: they are speculation that the unclassified hg-H came from Europe although the frequency is highest in Africa. They admitted no genetic contribution from Europe in historical times so they assume it came during the post LGM expansion and refuse to admit the third and most likely scenario when all evidence are compiled together. Europeans got it from Tunisians/North Africans.
To summarize:
1.They clearly admitted that H* is older in Tunisia; H1 and H3 are about the same age compared to Europe although H3 is slightly older in Tunisia. H* has highest frequency in Africa.
2. H*frequency and age is highest in Tunisia yet they refuse to admit Tunisia gave the H*, H1 and H3 to Europeans.
3. The recent DNATribes release also supports the view there is no European SNP contribution to North African natives.
It is pretty clear how this played out. Tunisians/North Africans migrated over to Europe during and after the LGM. This happened while the sea level was relatively low and there were land bridges to Europe at Iberia and Sardinia/Corsica also Greece. Sergi is of the same belief. This is supported by the fact that H*/H3 frequency is higher and older in Tunisia compared to Europe. These same Tunisians migrated and formed the Nuragic, Etruscan civilization on the Western side of Italy. Other Africans primarily from the Nile Valley area migrated from Egypt to Crete to form pre-Greek Civilizations. Keeping in mind there was a barrier(ethnic) along the Nile Valley (?? et al). That is why hg-H is not found in Egypt. Hg-L continued to be the dominant female macro-haplogroup in Africa pushing north and West. That could explain the beef the Nile Valley had with natives to the West and that barrier cited by many authors.
Note also:
Quote: There was NO TENDENCY for the ‘‘Andalusian communities’’ having lower frequency of SUB-SAHARAN HAPLOTYPES, with values varying from 13% in El Alia to 34% in Testour. THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY OF SUB-SAHARAN HAPLOGROUPS WAS OBSERVED IN TUNIS (41%), most probably contributing to the only significant genetic distance referred above. THE SUB-SAHARAN POOL PRESENTED ALL ITS MAJOR BRANCHES, L0, L1, L2, AND L3, being the more frequent ones (L2 and L3) present in all populations.
================
Post-Last Glacial Maximum Expansion From Iberia to North Africa Revealed by Fine Characterization of mtDNA H Haplogroup in Tunisia (2008)
Lotfi Cherni, Luýsa Pereira2,
MAJOR CONTRIBUTIONS from historical migrations to this Iberian genetic imprint in Tunisia were RULED OUT by the mtDNA gene pool similarity between Berber/Arab/cosmopolitan samples and some ‘‘Andalusian’’ communities, settled by the descendents of the ‘‘Moors’’ who once lived in Iberia for 10 centuries (between 8th and 17th centuries), before being expelled to Tunisia
TRANSLATION: No evidence of migration of Europeans to the Maghreb(Tunisia) after 700BC. The “documented” expulsion may not be numerically accurate. The bottom-line is, the so called “expelled” Moors have identical DNA as those that never left.
closeness between some cultures, such as Iberomaurisian and Capsian (Newman, 1995), Iberia COULD potentially have contributed some H lineages to the North African pool, during post- LGM expansion or after. As it is possible to a large extent to distinguish between Iberian and Near Eastern/Caucasian/Arabian Peninsula H pools, the fine characterization of this haplogroup could be very informative to the discussion
TRANSLATION: There are Near East hg-H and European hg-H. It is possible to distinguish them.
In recent times, the most important population movement from Iberia to North Africa resulted from the expulsion of the ‘‘Moors’’ residing in Andalusia, South Spain, after Granada’s capitulation (in 1492 AC). Tunisia received a large number of immigrants, estimated to have been over 80,000 ‘‘Andalusians’’
TRANSLATION: According to documents the expelled Moors settled in Andulsia in Tunisia, after living close to >700yrs in Europe.
The remaining Eurasian pool was diversified, in almost all samples, but as observed in the Northern Mediterranean margin, the highest frequency was attained by haplogroup H, reaching frequencies between 16% in Kesra and 45% in Skira, both the small Berber communities (see Fig. 2).
TRANSLATION: Berbers have one of the highest frequencies of hg-H
Tunisian diversity can be classified as a sub-set of European diversity, and no signs of local expansions were detected in North Africa alone OR SHARED WITH NEAR EAST AND CAUCASUS. Both diversities, observed in the coding region and in HVSI, were used to estimate the time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) for the most frequent H sub-haplogroups in Tunisia (Table 3). Comparing these estimates with the ones obtained in Pereira et al. (2005b), ages were younger in Tunisia, ALTHOUGH NOT SO APART IN THE TIME SCALE
TRANSLATION: or alternatively European diversity can be classified as a sub-set of Tunisians. The estimated age of hg-H for both Tunisia and Iberia is about the same. But since we are Europeans and we are reluctant to admit hg-H originated in Tunisia. Also North Africans are NOT Arabs.
IT IS TEMPTING TO INFER THAT THIS GENETIC CLOSENESS OF ‘‘ANDALUSIAN’’ VILLAGES TO NORTH AFRICAN POPULATIONS SEEMS TO FAVOR A KIND OF GENETIC ISOLATION OF THE DESCENTS OF ARABS AND BERBERS THAT PARTICIPATED IN THE ISLAMIC CONQUEST OF IBERIA IN THE 7TH CENTURY AC (Abdul-Wahab, 1917) during the 10 centuries they remained there. But some posterior demographic events could have strengthened the North African typical background of the migrants when returned to Tunisia, such as its known effective size reduction in the 18th century due to epidemics and immigration, and interbreeding with autochthonous people which is supposed to have taken place only from the 19th century onwards. In fact, the arriving ‘‘Andalusians’’ established themselves in an inhabited region, agriculturally rich in Tunisia, having Qalaat El Andalous served in 1,609–1,614 as the platform for the final repartition into North Tunisia (Abdul-Wahab, 1917).
TRANSLATION: If the data and numbers are true then the Moors remained sexually isolated for >1000yrs while in Europe. Or!!, they went hog-wild with the natives when they returned. to North Africa. Bottom-line they carry no “recent” European genetic material and no Levantine genetic material. This is supported also by DNATrbies 2013 release.
characterization of 1,580 bp in the mtDNA coding region showed the ALMOST TOTAL SHARING OF HAPLOTYPES BETWEEN TUNISIANS AND IBERIANS, being those a limited subset of these. ESTIMATED AGES WERE ALSO YOUNGER FOR TUNISIAN H1 AND H3 LINEAGES, and although they cannot be interpreted as dates for expansion in North Africa, as no signs of local diversity were detected, they **SEEM **to support that NORTH AFRICA WAS the receiver rather than THE BIRTH PLACE OF H1 AND H3.
TRANSLATION: Speculation and hesitation, interesting choice of words; QUOTE:”They **SEEM **to support that NORTH AFRICA WAS the receiver rather than THE BIRTH PLACE OF H1 AND H3” It is unclear which migrated where but although North Africans have a wider and earlier time age we decided on Iberia as the origin, why, because we say so. Ignore the fact that Tunisia hg-H is older for unclassified H and H3.
A CONSIDERABLE proportion of H Tunisian lineages (25%) could not be precisely affiliated, even after the characterization of 1,580 bp. This was also observed in the general European screen (Pereira et al., 2005b). Nonetheless, AGES ESTIMATED FOR ALL H LINEAGES EXCEPT H1 AND H3 SHOWED YOUNGER AGES IN TUNISIA THAN IN EUROPE, NOT EXCLUDING THAT EUROPE COULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED ALSO TO H* GROUP.
TRANSLATION: Quote:
I repeat: “AGES ESTIMATED FOR ALL H LINEAGES *****EXCEPT H1 AND H3 ****SHOWED YOUNGER AGES IN TUNISIA THAN IN EUROPE”. Ie H1 and H3 are NOT younger in Tunisia compared to Europe. They are using the OTHER hg-H lines to determine origin. In addition Tunisia has a substantially greater frequency of unclassified hg-H(H*). More so than Europe. But they continue to make the assumption it came from Europe. Talk about blind arrogance and ignorance. Everything points to Tunisia as the origin of hg-H but they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep it in Europe. They are not going to admit it as long as they do not have to. Notice they did not mention the frequency of H* in Europe, but it was disclosed in that Enefaraa(?) et al table I posted. If memory serves me right I believe it was around 5%.
The UNDISTINGUISHABLE H SUB-HAPLOGROUP profile between ‘‘Andalusians’’ and other North African communities DOES NOT support a strong HISTORICAL contribution of an Iberian imprint in North Africa. The post- LGM expansion from Iberia, which resettled Europe, must have also been the movement responsible for the H sub-haplogroup presence in North Africa
TRANSLATION: they are speculation that the unclassified hg-H came from Europe although the frequency is highest in Africa. They admitted no genetic contribution from Europe in historical times so they assume it came during the post LGM expansion and refuse to admit the third and most likely scenario when all evidence are compiled together. Europeans got it from Tunisians/North Africans.
To summarize:
1.They clearly admitted that H* is older in Tunisia; H1 and H3 are about the same age compared to Europe although H3 is slightly older in Tunisia. H* has highest frequency in Africa.
2. H*frequency and age is highest in Tunisia yet they refuse to admit Tunisia gave the H*, H1 and H3 to Europeans.
3. The recent DNATribes release also supports the view there is no European SNP contribution to North African natives.
It is pretty clear how this played out. Tunisians/North Africans migrated over to Europe during and after the LGM. This happened while the sea level was relatively low and there were land bridges to Europe at Iberia and Sardinia/Corsica also Greece. Sergi is of the same belief. This is supported by the fact that H*/H3 frequency is higher and older in Tunisia compared to Europe. These same Tunisians migrated and formed the Nuragic, Etruscan civilization on the Western side of Italy. Other Africans primarily from the Nile Valley area migrated from Egypt to Crete to form pre-Greek Civilizations. Keeping in mind there was a barrier(ethnic) along the Nile Valley (?? et al). That is why hg-H is not found in Egypt. Hg-L continued to be the dominant female macro-haplogroup in Africa pushing north and West. That could explain the beef the Nile Valley had with natives to the West and that barrier cited by many authors.
Note also:
Quote: There was NO TENDENCY for the ‘‘Andalusian communities’’ having lower frequency of SUB-SAHARAN HAPLOTYPES, with values varying from 13% in El Alia to 34% in Testour. THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY OF SUB-SAHARAN HAPLOGROUPS WAS OBSERVED IN TUNIS (41%), most probably contributing to the only significant genetic distance referred above. THE SUB-SAHARAN POOL PRESENTED ALL ITS MAJOR BRANCHES, L0, L1, L2, AND L3, being the more frequent ones (L2 and L3) present in all populations.