Dierk Lange: Origin of the Yoruba, Israelites ?????

[karem]

The above nameed person, Dierk Lange, seems to believe that the Yoruba peoples originally came from the Near East.
Has anyone else heard this before and is there any truth to it or is it just religiously fuelled bs ?

[truthteacher2007]

Sept 22, 2014 10:53:29 GMT -5 karem said:

The above nameed person, Dierk Lange, seems to believe that the Yoruba peoples originally came from the Near East.
Has anyone else heard this before and is there any truth to it or is it just religiously fuelled bs ?

We've been all over this nonsense in previous threads. There are so many reasons why it's not three. However, I will say that there are cultural similarities in certain areas, such as cosmology, not identical, but similar. I attribute it to the fact that both peoples probably share some Saharan cultural influences. Just as people migrated to the Nile when the Sahara began to dry up, so too did people migrate south into areas of West Africa. The Green Saharan culture extended from the Red Sea in the East to the Atlantic in the west, but to say Yorubas or any other West African group are Egyptian descendants.... Wishstory history.

[rivertemz]

*Rolls eyes* Yes I have, as a Yoruba myself, I'm not convinced by it one bit.
I would rather recognise substantial facts before I take that belief on board.
The Igbos (or Ibos, a neighbouring ethnic group to yoruba), also claim isrealite links.
Meh, even if it was truth, nothing special about it.

[truthteacher2007]

Sept 22, 2014 14:43:18 GMT -5 rivertemz said:

*Rolls eyes* Yes I have, as a Yoruba myself, I'm not convinced by it one bit.
I would rather recognise substantial facts before I take that belief on board.
The Igbos (or Ibos, a neighbouring ethnic group to yoruba), also claim isrealite links.
Meh, even if it was truth, nothing special about it.

As an Ifa practitioner, I see too many holes in this theory. Mind you, I still have a lot to learn, but the little I do know doesn't lead me to believe there is anything grounded in fact to these claims. First of all, the Yoruba story of creation is totally different than the Egyptian story. Besides, according to the Yoruba story of creation, the world began at Ile Ife, soooo... I think that speaks for itself. In Ifa there is no Odu that equates to the story of isis and Osiris. All the thories I've seen have been grossly ignorant of Egyptians and Yoruba history and culture.

[anansi]

True many a Hebrewcentrist will claim Hebrews or Jews are responsible for major civilizations and rituals all over Africa and their descendants make up the majority of the population of New world Blacks however one must take-care not ignore such communities exist even within or among some of those civilizations,they like the Muslims were in Africa for a very longtime some penetrated deep into Africa below the great desert,one of Mali's leading scholars is a descendant of such.

During the 8th century, the Rhadanites (Jewish African, mulit-lingual traders) began to settle in Timbuktu, Mali. There they established a trading center from which they set up a network of trading routes throughout the desert. More Jews began to arrive in the 14th and 15th centuries, fleeing the Spanish Inquisition. Then in 1492, the local King, Askia Muhammed, threatened the Jews with death if they did not convert to Islam. As the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526: "The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods." While some chose conversion, many fled from the country. In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.

In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.

link
Here^
www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/leo_afri.asp
And Here^
Rule of thumb anywhere Muslim could go Jews could go.

[truthteacher2007]

Sept 23, 2014 0:38:18 GMT -5 anansi said:

True many a Hebrewcentrist will claim Hebrews or Jews are responsible for major civilizations and rituals all over Africa and their descendants make up the majority of the population of New world Blacks however one must take-care not ignore such communities exist even within or among some of those civilizations,they like the Muslims were in Africa for a very longtime some penetrated deep into Africa below the great desert,one of Mali's leading scholars is a descendant of such.

During the 8th century, the Rhadanites (Jewish African, mulit-lingual traders) began to settle in Timbuktu, Mali. There they established a trading center from which they set up a network of trading routes throughout the desert. More Jews began to arrive in the 14th and 15th centuries, fleeing the Spanish Inquisition. Then in 1492, the local King, Askia Muhammed, threatened the Jews with death if they did not convert to Islam. As the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526: "The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods." While some chose conversion, many fled from the country. In 1860, Rabbi Mordechai Abi Serour emigrated from Morocco with several Jews to trade in Timbuktu. Rabbi Serour had to negotiate with the local authorities to obtain “protected people” status. The newly arrived congregation established a synagogue and Jewish cemetery in the area. By the early 20th century no Jews remained in Mali.

In the mid-1990s, however, thousands of so called ‘Hidden Jews,’ began a Malian Jewish revival in Timbuktu, Mali; many reclaiming their Jewish heritage. In 1993, Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, established an organization called Zakhor (Timbuktu Association for Friendship with the Jewish World). This organization is predominately composed of Malians, descendants of Jews. Over the years, much of the Malian Jewry’s history has been uncovered; it was once concealed to avoid persecution.

link
Here^
www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/leo_afri.asp
And Here^
Rule of thumb anywhere Muslim could go Jews could go.

This is valid history. However, stating that Jewish people came and settled in a community is a very different thing than saying that they founded the community. It would be like saying that the founding fathers of the United States were Jamaicans just because you found Dance hall DVD's all over the place 500yrs from now. There are so many poorly articulated theories of the Yoruba origins. Some want to say Egypt, some want to say Arabia, and of course, some want to say they were Isrealites. My question for all these wandering people theories, "Can ya'll just pick one and agree on it"? However, wheher it's Hebrews, Arabians or Egyptians, I see no real evidence in any of these theories that matches up with actual yoruba culture. If Yorubas were Isrealites, how come then they have such a complex cosmology that is so radically different from Judaism? Even our death rituals are different. I mean when they bury a priest they put a hog's head right on the grave, HELLOOOO! Does it get any non kosher than that? Yoruba traditional religions do have dietetic restrictions, but nothing like the kosher laws. In general, we refrain from eating pumpkin, bones, in the new world at least, we're not supposed to eat coconut, (not sure about Nigeria), but other food restrictions are ascribed on an individual basis and are ditermined according to divination. There is nothing in Judaism that comes even close to Ifa or Obi divination. Nothing akin to eggun, (ancestor) veneration, or the concept of orisha intercession. It's all so radically different. No story of Adam and Eve, no concept of female inferiority/sinfullness. If Islam could arrive in West Africa with all it's core principles in place, then why wouldn't it be the same with Judaism?

[karem]

Thanks for the link Anansi. As suspected, its religious ideology then. How about groups like the Lemba and Beta Israel - are there any actual genetic links to them and Israelites ?

[kaskata]

It should not be surprising that the Israelites share some culture aspects with Africans. One, the Israelites were in Egypt for a long time, every time they faced hardship they ran to Africa.Two,the bible tells us they are the children of the Ethiopians, Amos 9:7 "Are you not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? says the LORD". Three, all the ancient historians couldn't tell them from the Egyptians. If one really study the old hebrew customs, one can definitely see African influences.

[anansi]

Oct 18, 2014 19:44:08 GMT -5 kaskata said:

It should not be surprising that the Israelites share some culture aspects with Africans. One, the Israelites were in Egypt for a long time, every time they faced hardship they ran to Africa.Two,the bible tells us they are the children of the Ethiopians, Amos 9:7 "Are you not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? says the LORD". Three, all the ancient historians couldn't tell them from the Egyptians. If one really study the old hebrew customs, one can definitely see African influences

Well that's because even before Hebrews became Hebrews their earlier language and customs in this case Semitic came out of East Africa so there was bound to be cultural connection no matter how distant.

A Conversation with Christopher Ehret

Christopher Ehret, UCLA
Interviewed by WHC Co-editor Tom Laichas

WHC: You describe two other groups. One of them is the Afrasans. Can you talk about them for a moment?

Ehret: These are people who have been called Afro-Asiatic and also Afrasian. I'm saying "Afrasan" because I'm trying to get "Asia" out. There is still this idea that the Afro-Asiatic family had to come out of Asia. Once you realize that it's an African family with one little Asian offshoot, well, that itself is a very important lesson for world historians.

We actually have DNA evidence which fits very well with an intrusion of people from northwestern African into southwestern Asia. The Y-chromosome markers, associated with the male, fade out as you go deeper into the Middle East.

Another thing about the Afrasans: their religious beliefs. Anciently, each local group had its own supreme deity. This is called "henotheism." In this kind of religion, you have your own god to whom you show your allegiance. But you realize that other groups have their own deities. The fact that they have deities different from yours doesn't mean their deities don't exist.

This kind of belief still exists. It's fading, maybe on its last legs, in southeastern Ethiopia, among people of the Omati group. They descend from the earliest split in the Semitic family. Way up in the mountains, they have this henotheism. They have a deity of their clan, or their small group of closely related clans. They have their priest-chief who has to see to the rites of that deity.

We see the same kind of thing in ancient Egypt. If we go to there, we discover that the Egyptian gods began as local gods. With Egyptian unification, we move from this henotheism to polytheism. To unify Egypt, after all, you have to co-opt the loyalty of local groups and recognize their gods. We have no direct evidence, but it's certainly implied by the things we learn about the gods in the written records we do have.


20
WHC: You seem to be suggesting that the Semitic monotheism ­ Jewish, Christian and Islamic monotheism ­ descends from African models. Is that fair?

Ehret: Yeah, actually it is. Look at the first commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." It's not like the Muslim creed, which is "There is no God but God." It's doesn't say "there is no god but Yahweh, and Moses is his prophet." It is an admittance that there are other gods. It is an example of henotheism. And the Hebrew tribes are like the Omati clan groups. The tribes are clans writ larger. Like the Omati clans, they track their ancestry back ten or fifteen generations to a common ancestor. And these common ancestors were twelve brothers. (Actually, there are thirteen. They have to turn two of them, Ephraim and Manasseh, into half tribes, because thirteen wasn't a good number. I always loved that. There are really thirteen tribes, but you have to combine two of them).

The Canaanite cities have an alternative Semitic structure: polytheism. There's Astarte and Baal and the various gods that you'll find in South Arabia. So it looks like in the early Semitic world, you have two coexisting religions. You have polytheism among the ones who are really more urbanized. Then you have henotheistic groups.

What I see here is that earlier Middle Eastern polytheism is influencing Semitic religion. After all, the early Semites were just a few Africans arriving to find a lot of other people already in the area. So they're going to have to accommodate. Some groups, maybe ones who live in peripheries, in areas with lower population densities, may be able to impose the henotheistic religion they arrived with.

link

[snakepit]

Sept 22, 2014 21:36:17 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:43:18 GMT -5 rivertemz said:

*Rolls eyes* Yes I have, as a Yoruba myself, I'm not convinced by it one bit.
I would rather recognise substantial facts before I take that belief on board.
The Igbos (or Ibos, a neighbouring ethnic group to yoruba), also claim isrealite links.
Meh, even if it was truth, nothing special about it.

As an Ifa practitioner, I see too many holes in this theory. Mind you, I still have a lot to learn, but the little I do know doesn't lead me to believe there is anything grounded in fact to these claims. First of all, the Yoruba story of creation is totally different than the Egyptian story. Besides, according to the Yoruba story of creation, the world began at Ile Ife, soooo... I think that speaks for itself. In Ifa there is no Odu that equates to the story of isis and Osiris. All the thories I've seen have been grossly ignorant of Egyptians and Yoruba history and culture.

It's more likely that people practicing the Hebrew faith, settled amongst peoples who would become Yorubas & Igbo (I don't know how far back the names Yoruba & Igbo goes) , hence why there are some who claim Hebrew descent, and some (many) who don't.  Anyways, in terms of traditions & spiritual systems, the bantu speaking people have a closer relationship with "monotheism" compared to the Yoruba/Ibgo. I can't remember the title of the book right now, but it was written by Andrew Leigh Battell (an "explorer") , and he mentioned that when he was in Angola, the natives were followers of the religion of Mohamet (Muhammad) , i.e they were Muslims. That is of course not possible, since the Arabs didn't go that far south on the Atlantic seaboard. He mentioned that they prayed eastwards, prostrating. It's not too far-fetched that he might have got the traditions mixed up, since Islam & the Hebrew faith are very compatible in some instances (as in prayer etc.) ..

[snakepit]

Sept 23, 2014 9:16:25 GMT -5 truthteacher2007 said:

Sept 23, 2014 0:38:18 GMT -5 anansi said:

True many a Hebrewcentrist will claim Hebrews or Jews are responsible for major civilizations and rituals all over Africa and their descendants make up the majority of the population of New world Blacks however one must take-care not ignore such communities exist even within or among some of those civilizations,they like the Muslims were in Africa for a very longtime some penetrated deep into Africa below the great desert,one of Mali's leading scholars is a descendant of such.

link
Here^
www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/leo_afri.asp
And Here^
Rule of thumb anywhere Muslim could go Jews could go.

This is valid history. However, stating that Jewish people came and settled in a community is a very different thing than saying that they founded the community. It would be like saying that the founding fathers of the United States were Jamaicans just because you found Dance hall DVD's all over the place 500yrs from now. There are so many poorly articulated theories of the Yoruba origins. Some want to say Egypt, some want to say Arabia, and of course, some want to say they were Isrealites. My question for all these wandering people theories, "Can ya'll just pick one and agree on it"? However, wheher it's Hebrews, Arabians or Egyptians, I see no real evidence in any of these theories that matches up with actual yoruba culture. If Yorubas were Isrealites, how come then they have such a complex cosmology that is so radically different from Judaism? Even our death rituals are different. I mean when they bury a priest they put a hog's head right on the grave, HELLOOOO! Does it get any non kosher than that? Yoruba traditional religions do have dietetic restrictions, but nothing like the kosher laws. In general, we refrain from eating pumpkin, bones, in the new world at least, we're not supposed to eat coconut, (not sure about Nigeria), but other food restrictions are ascribed on an individual basis and are ditermined according to divination. There is nothing in Judaism that comes even close to Ifa or Obi divination. Nothing akin to eggun, (ancestor) veneration, or the concept of orisha intercession. It's all so radically different. No story of Adam and Eve, no concept of female inferiority/sinfullness. If Islam could arrive in West Africa with all it's core principles in place, then why wouldn't it be the same with Judaism?

It's not accurate to call it "Judaism". Judaism is basically the babylonian Talmud, which the original Hebrews didn't create (they were already exiled by then) .
There aren't many who actually practice the Hebrew faith the way it was done in the days of the old. The only possible exception might be the Falashas, who practiced a very "pure" form of the Hebrew faith, which they supposedly had to let go of, so that they could "emigrate" to Israel (The Ashkenazim didn't like the fact that the Ethiopians were more "pious" than them, I guess.)

It's a pretty extensive subject, but as I said, it's erroneous to liken Judaism to the belief system which the Hebrews practiced in, lets say, 900BCE. It's not nearly the same.

[history91]

Interesting

inmyfatherhouseisrael.com/2015/01/evidence-of-ancient-judeanisraelite-lost-identities-roots-of-yoruba/

[zarahan]

The Yorbua may have come from the East, but "the East" would be East Africa
not Palestine, or Arabia. Indeed, East Africa is the major zone hub of human
dispersals out of Africa, but also to some extent, within Africa. The wide
dispersion of Semitic speaking peoples in historic times may have brought
traders, merchants, nomads etc across the Sahara into West Africa but all
that would be relatively RECENT movements. People have been in West Africa
for many thousands of years BEFORE. No Hebrews are needed to explain how 
the Yoruba came into being.



Another shaky claim is that of "fleeing blacks" running away from Egypt to come
to West Africa when the Assyrians, Persians etc took over Egypt. But again, this would
be a relatively recent movement. The Assyrians took over in around 664BC when the 25th
dynasty was expelled. The Persians showed up around 525-404bc. But black folk were in
place in West Africa thousands of years BEFORE. There was no need for "fleeing negroes"
or "Hebrew refugees" to show up circa 600 or 400 BC from "the East."





Data from Mali for example, at Ounjougou, demonstrates long occupation multiple thousands
of years ago, indigenous African development that does not need any Hebrews to explain why.

www.ounjougou.org/en/projects/mali/archaeology/the-beginning-of-the-holocene-at-ounjougou/

[jethro]

Sept 22, 2014 10:53:29 GMT -5 karem said:

The above nameed person, Dierk Lange, seems to believe that the Yoruba peoples originally came from the Near East.
Has anyone else heard this before and is there any truth to it or is it just religiously fuelled bs ?

YORUBA ARE  SSA  AFRICANS  CARRYING THE  VERY INDIGENOUS  E1B1A  ORIGINATING IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA!!!!!!