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Post by anansi on Oct 31, 2016 1:45:18 GMT -5
Xyyman or anyone with genetic studies skillz for that matter. I know that you!, Xyyman proposed that R found in central Africa in the region of Cameroon,Chad and Niger in high frequencies is of local development or un-derived, others said it travel from Spain into Africa and then back to Europe. So far so good, but! is there a third way not considered?? I like history so this gave me a little insight, what if R1b found in Africa is a result of the importation of Slaves, and recent enough during the era of Kanem Bornu, look at the map of Kenem Bornu, it covered all those areas in it's empire days. Mai Idris Alooma imported Eurasian slaves and slave soldiers through Egypt from the Caucasus region, goods and people flowed back and forth to this empire, they were not above enslaving Arab tribes that got too close to their border who had recently crossed over into the Sudan from Arabia heading west. Couldn't this be the origin of how R1b got to central Africa, I mean it would take none but a few thousand male Eurasian slaves to passed on their genes to their male off springs, I mean it would be a good match with historical data, however that would only work if R1b in central Africa not older than enslaved Eurasians in the late middle ages. Btw Someone sometime ago on ES posted Eurasian Female Mtdna in the Gambia that might have been a result of Eurasian female trade in slaves that went far south into Gambia, if anyone out there remembers such a thread or part of it please link us.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Oct 31, 2016 4:36:52 GMT -5
let me read the post and get back to you
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Oct 31, 2016 9:03:35 GMT -5
Unlike most people. I go where the scientific data takes me. I am not versed in history so my review of the data is unbiased. I do not let the knowledge of history affect my judgement or interpretation. I go where the data takes me. Your viewpoint is NOT unique ie the back-and-forth migration between three geographic close regions like Africa/Europe/Near East. And, yes, many seem to forget that male sex-related haplogroups should NOT be treated as an isolate. There are also the female counter part and of course autosomal SNPs. And even more importantly the resolution of the haplogroups being analyzed . The fact is at high resolution R1b-V-88 is OLDER in Central Africa compared the coastal areas of Africa meaning it is never in-out-in-out. It was always central Africans migrating OUTWARDS. When female line mtDNA-H is taken into consideration (at higher resolution) the “European” female line is a sub-set of the North African female line. Yet, another indicator of the direction of migration. White Females slaves were NOT brought into Africa by Babary pirates at least not to the extent to account for the WIDESPREAD presence of mt-DNA in North Africa and parts of SSA. Further when SNPs fall into the picture. It is a slam dunk. “Eurasian” SNPs increase in frequency from Central Africa TO North Africa into Europe. That is how selective sweep work or Isolation by Distance or Genetic Surfing.
Also keep in mind mtDNA-H is NOT the female counter part to R1b as it is today. R1b-M269 is post Neolithic expansion. Mt-DNA-H is Early Neolithic. For some reason the male counter part y-DNA –G disappeared but E1b1b* remains at small frequency.
So. Sorry. Regardless to what is “written” in the “history” books. The data do NOT support that.
BTW – I am not on a hiatus. Just that there is nothing new coming out. This has been resolved.
Quote: Xyyman or anyone with genetic studies skillz for that matter. I know that you!, Xyyman proposed that R found in central Africa in the region of Cameroon,Chad and Niger in high frequencies is of local development or un-derived, others said it travel from Spain into Africa and then back to Europe. By looking at the big picture, including all the data and letting the data illustrate the patterns, we can unravel what appears to be the mysterious appearance of R1b in Central Africa. Along the way, we can uncover a previously unknown re-migration from Africa to Europe. Too often haplogroup data is treated as discrete buckets of information living in a vacuum with no interaction to other haplogroups and no internal relationships. Every DNA record is connected to every other record in a network. Each haplotype is a vector with location and direction. The sooner we treat genetic records as a network analysis, the sooner we will solve more DNA mysteries.
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Post by anansi on Oct 31, 2016 20:14:35 GMT -5
So let's be clear R1b is older in central Africa than it is in Europe got it. One more thing the central African kingdom imported Mameluke or Circassian slave soldiers is there a way of differentiating them from the original African R.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Oct 31, 2016 21:15:36 GMT -5
to be clear. R1b-V88 is older in Central Africa compared to North Africa and Europe. Sources cited here on ESR. But R1b-M269 has NOT been compared at high resolution between Africa and Europe. So I cannot define whether R1b-M269 amongst Africans and Europeans. Busby et al came the closest for comparison. But he refused to disclose the data.
I do not have a handle on "documented" Mamelukes and Circassian in African. If they carried European R1b-M269 into Africa it would be easily to pinpoint since the descendant will carry "European" R1b-M269. This has never been discovered. The R1b-V88 is unique to Africa.
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Post by anansi on Oct 31, 2016 21:25:42 GMT -5
to be clear. R1b-V88 is older in Central Africa compared to North Africa and Europe. Sources cited here on ESR. But R1b-M269 has NOT been compared at high resolution between Africa and Europe. So I cannot define whether R1b-M269 amongst Africans and Europeans. Busby et al came the closest for comparison. But he refused to disclose the data. I do not have a handle on "documented" Mamelukes and Circassian in African. If they carried European R1b-M269 into Africa it would be easily to pinpoint since the descendant will carry "European" R1b-M269. This has never been discovered. The R1b-V88 is unique to Africa. Ok thanks as always, if you find any thing new I am sure you will hook us up.
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Post by africurious on Nov 2, 2016 12:05:51 GMT -5
Mai Idris Alooma imported Eurasian slaves and slave soldiers through Egypt from the Caucasus region, goods and people flowed back and forth to this empire, they were not above enslaving Arab tribes that got too close to their border who had recently crossed over into the Sudan from Arabia heading west. Couldn't this be the origin of how R1b got to central Africa, I mean it would take none but a few thousand male Eurasian slaves to passed on their genes to their male off springs, I mean it would be a good match with historical data, however that would only work if R1b in central Africa not older than enslaved Eurasians in the late middle ages. Btw Someone sometime ago on ES posted Eurasian Female Mtdna in the Gambia that might have been a result of Eurasian female trade in slaves that went far south into Gambia, if anyone out there remembers such a thread or part of it please link us. Hey Anansi. There're a whole bunch of reasons why that theory doesn't work, see below: 1. r1b-v88 in africa isn't the same as that found in Eurasia and prevalent in Europe. 2. r1b-v88 has so far only been detected in africa and extremely rare cases outside of Africa such as in dead sea bedouins in Jordan. 3. The r1b-v88 mutation is over 10k years old I believe, waaay older than the few 100 yrs ago when kanem-bornu existed. A mutation that old one would expect there to be a lot of it in the areas where the slaves originated and it's not there. 4. r1b-v88 prevalence doesn't actually match kanem-bornu's boundaries. R1b-v88 is widespread all the way down Gabon. There's no record or indication of extremely large amounts of eurasian slaves being taken to places such as Gabon. 5. Related to above point, r1b-v88 is in some cases near half of the male lineage among some groups in central Africa. An extreme amount of eurasian slaves (more than the few 1,000 you suggested) would have to have been imported to this region over a short time to make such an impact on the population. 6. The other y-chromosomes common among people from the areas in eurasia you mentioned are not found in a pattern with r1b-v88. That is what would have happened if the theory were true. 7. These eurasians slaves (not to mention free men) would've been all over africa from the sahara to the northern coast of africa in waaay greater #s than what kanem-bornu imported but r1b-v88 is still hardly found in Africa outside the central zone. It doesn't add up.
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Post by anansi on Nov 6, 2016 22:30:47 GMT -5
Thanks to both you and Xyyman for putting the the R question in context it's always good to ask.
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ringo
Craftsperson
Posts: 16
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Post by ringo on Mar 31, 2017 5:30:02 GMT -5
to be clear. R1b-V88 is older in Central Africa compared to North Africa and Europe. Sources cited here on ESR. But R1b-M269 has NOT been compared at high resolution between Africa and Europe. So I cannot define whether R1b-M269 amongst Africans and Europeans. Busby et al came the closest for comparison. But he refused to disclose the data. I do not have a handle on "documented" Mamelukes and Circassian in African. If they carried European R1b-M269 into Africa it would be easily to pinpoint since the descendant will carry "European" R1b-M269. This has never been discovered. The R1b-V88 is unique to Africa. R1B originated in the MIDDLE EAST MTDNA H originated in the MID EAST www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(mtDNA)Cameroons Men carry a subclave of R1B WHICH IS NOT THE SAME SUBCLAVE as EUROPEANS and MID EASTERNERS!
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 1, 2017 7:23:09 GMT -5
Do understand what you are posting? Or are you quoting from a script? West Africans carry R1b-V88 and UPSTREAM clade of R1b which is about 10,000years old. Modern Europeans carry R1b-M269 which is ONLY about 6000year old. I usually ignore newbies. So will you take it someplace else. And it is not "subCLAVE". SMH to be clear. R1b-V88 is older in Central Africa compared to North Africa and Europe. Sources cited here on ESR. But R1b-M269 has NOT been compared at high resolution between Africa and Europe. So I cannot define whether R1b-M269 amongst Africans and Europeans. Busby et al came the closest for comparison. But he refused to disclose the data. I do not have a handle on "documented" Mamelukes and Circassian in African. If they carried European R1b-M269 into Africa it would be easily to pinpoint since the descendant will carry "European" R1b-M269. This has never been discovered. The R1b-V88 is unique to Africa. R1B originated in the MIDDLE EAST MTDNA H originated in the MID EAST www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(mtDNA)Cameroons Men carry a subclave of R1B WHICH IS NOT THE SAME SUBCLAVE as EUROPEANS and MID EASTERNERS! edit 10,000 not 100,000
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 3, 2017 21:18:06 GMT -5
to be clear. R1b-V88 is older in Central Africa compared to North Africa and Europe. Sources cited here on ESR. But R1b-M269 has NOT been compared at high resolution between Africa and Europe. So I cannot define whether R1b-M269 amongst Africans and Europeans. Busby et al came the closest for comparison. But he refused to disclose the data. I do not have a handle on "documented" Mamelukes and Circassian in African. If they carried European R1b-M269 into Africa it would be easily to pinpoint since the descendant will carry "European" R1b-M269. This has never been discovered. The R1b-V88 is unique to Africa. R1B originated in the MIDDLE EAST MTDNA H originated in the MID EAST www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(mtDNA)Cameroons Men carry a subclave of R1B WHICH IS NOT THE SAME SUBCLAVE as EUROPEANS and MID EASTERNERS! It has always been know that the first hunter-gatherers of Europe were SSAs. Now we can declare that the carriers of haplogroup R1, that introduced the European agro-pastoral cultures to Europe, i.e., Bell Beaker and Yamnaya were probably also SSAs because they carried V88. This should not be surprising because the Bell Beaker culture probably began in Morocco. Toomas Kivisild1 (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page provides a detailed discussion of R1 in prehistoric Europe. Kivisild (2017) also made it clear that V88 is the earliest offshoot of R-M343 . .
The presence of V88 in Europe indicates that the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people who carried R1 were mainly SSA. It indicates that the Bell Beaker people who entered Europe from Morocco via Iberia were carriers of V88.
The genetic evidence makes it clear that the Basal Eurasians that are mixed into modern Europeans, who came from the Middle East, and North Africa were SSA's not Indo-European speakers.
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 9, 2017 16:43:28 GMT -5
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Post by clydewin98 on Apr 9, 2017 16:44:39 GMT -5
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