Who were the Moors

[sttigray]

With the Identity of Egypt being a bygone conclusion, who were the Moors. I am asking this on a purely academic level, and I have many pictures depicting the Moors as Black. I also think that while the Moors were mostly Black, I still am curious to what populations that they originated from. Please approach this from an objective viewpoint, keep the racism both subtle and overt out of the discussion.

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[truth]

^more typical Trojan horses of Afrocentrism...

There is the Moor of Andalus and there is the moor of classical Rome. One is a noun, indicative of an entire culture (Andalusian Moors), while the latter is an adjective; descriptive of people (Mauritania) darker than the Romans. The bust provided by OP is emblematic of Afrocentrists using a trojan horse to anchor themselves on to foreign history. The head bust has nothing to do w/Moors of spain. It predates Al Andalus.

The majority of Andalusian Moors consisted of Arab and Berber muslims. The moorish push was an islamic one. Arabs are the originators of Al-Islam, not Negroes. The Negro moors, also called "Blackamoor," were conscripts in the various Arab military campaigns. Many of these Negroes were hired mecenaries and many were forcefully conscripted and converted.

The majority of the depictions of the moors show asian and berber people, with a minority of the Negro. Here is an example of a depiction (10th century; written in gaelic) which gives you an idea of the racial makeup of the moors of andula. There is one Negro, the rest are Berbers and Arabs.

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[sttigray]

While I know that the Moors gave way to the Arabs over time, your depiction is contrary to personal eye witness depictions of them. This is a subject that I am learning about, and I am quite secure in my races history thus far I have no need to appropriate contrary to what we have. But I am fuzzy on some matters and I can find even your information enlightening. But I would love to stick with the facts, I find the securing of a cultures identity by artifacts alone, less than accurate. You can find Romans in Ebony if you like, but that does not change their non African nature.

This is a sample of eye witness descriptions of the Moors. What do you make of it.
"The Moors were a people composed of dark-skinned tribes who had gained domination over all of North Africa after the decline of the Vandals who had gained control of the region briefly following the fall of Rome".
Procopius
6th Century, Byzantium

the Moorish army was 50,000 strong and led by Marganice, Emperor of Ethiopia and Carthage. Their most valiant figure is described as Abisme (probably a derivative of, Abyssinian), who (verse 126) is described as black as melted pitch. In this epic, the Moors are called Sarrazins, in English, Saracens.
Chanson of Roland 13th century

[sttigray]

"All the Moorish soldiers were dressed in silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired their faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like a cooking pan".
Alfonso X King of Spain
13th century
description of the Moors in Spain

[sttigray]

I have read some reports that they were from Ethiopia or even Senegal, and others stating that many were from Upper Egypt. While I know that all were not Black, I am also interested in the origin of the non-black moors as well

[truth]

You do realize that "dark" is relative and not absolute. This is another mistake (or at times purposed) by Afrocentrists; that is, to equate dark w/the racial identity -- Black.

Apr 2, 2010 14:06:06 GMT -5 sttigray said:

While I know that the Moors gave way to the Arabs over time, your depiction is contrary to personal eye witness depictions of them. This is a subject that I am learning about, and I am quite secure in my races history thus far I have no need to appropriate contrary to what we have. But I am fuzzy on some matters and I can find even your information enlightening. But I would love to stick with the facts, I find the securing of a cultures identity by artifacts alone, less than accurate. You can find Romans in Ebony if you like, but that does not change their non African nature.

This is a sample of eye witness descriptions of the Moors. What do you make of it.
"The Moors were a people composed of dark-skinned tribes who had gained domination over all of North Africa after the decline of the Vandals who had gained control of the region briefly following the fall of Rome".
Procopius
6th Century, Byzantium

the Moorish army was 50,000 strong and led by Marganice, Emperor of Ethiopia and Carthage. Their most valiant figure is described as Abisme (probably a derivative of, Abyssinian), who (verse 126) is described as black as melted pitch. In this epic, the Moors are called Sarrazins, in English, Saracens.
Chanson of Roland 13th century

[truth]

How does this indicate they were by and large, Black?

Apr 2, 2010 14:09:46 GMT -5 sttigray said:

"All the Moorish soldiers were dressed in silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired their faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like a cooking pan".
Alfonso X King of Spain
13th century
description of the Moors in Spain

[truth]

Many of the moors were drawn from interior Africa. However, that does not mean Nergoes were the majority. The moors were mainly Berbers and Arabs.

Apr 2, 2010 14:11:56 GMT -5 sttigray said:

I have read some reports that they were from Ethiopia or even Senegal, and others stating that many were from Upper Egypt. While I know that all were not Black, I am also interested in the origin of the non-black moors as well

[truth]

The leader of the moors, Tariq ibn Ziyad.



"Tariq ibn Ziyad or Taric bin Zeyad (Arabic: ØÇÑÞ Èä ÒíÇÏý, 15 November 689 – 11 April 720[citation needed]) was a Berber Muslim and Umayyad general who led the conquest of Visigothic Hispania in 711 under the orders of the Umayyad Caliph Al-Walid I" (Retrieved from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn-Ziyad)

Two things of importance in that quote: Tariq was a Berber and answered to the Caliph. These facts are important because A) the pix illustrates a typical Berber and B) The Caliphate was Islamic governance.

Pay close attn. to these facts because these two debunk the claim that Negro presence dominated the moorish movement. The Negro is not the father of Al Islam, nor is the Negro a Berber.

[sttigray]

@ Truth
In reference to some of your points
1. Wikipedia?
2. While dark is relative, they are usually described as pitch black, and a medieval woodcut is not at all accurate in describing anyone. If you like I could find wood cuts and statues depicting a black ceasar, but you and I know better. At least I hope.
3. I'm not much interested in Afrocentric reasoning.
4. Who is speaking of the origin of Islam, I speak of the Moors as tenants of the religion, not developers.
5. Berbers is not necessarily a race but a language, and to compare todays Berbers with Antiquities Berbers is as asinine as comparing todays American, with antiquities Native American.
6. Please only respond if you have some actual points on the subj matter, not Islam, Not Muslims, not Arabs, just Moors.
7. It would be wise to note that Moor generally described Black individuals. I.E. Negro, Blacks, etc etc

[truth]

^Sir, the wikipedia provides the references. I hope you are not trying to beat up on a strawman (wikipedia). Anyhow, the moorish movement of Andulas was an islamic one. Are you disputing that?

[sttigray]

Here are some other eyewitness reports of the Moors if you like, the evidence speaks for itself.

11th century – Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler his Description of the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”. See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.

I also know that many people were pressed into service, and as you stated it was not just Black Africans, but also many other types of people as well, My contention is that it seems, from eyewitness accounts as well as historical accounts that the soldiers as well as their leadership comprised of a majority African contingent.


“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”

- Martial, VI, 39.

As I said it is wise to note that originally Moor was a term used to describe Black Africans in general. I dont mean to lecture I actually came here to learn, but you seem to take the offensive when this should be just a discussion. So I am forced on the defensive

[sttigray]

@ Truth

Of course the movement is Islamic, you are the only one contending the matter, but Islamic does not necessarily equate Arabic, like Christian does not equate White. I think that may be your confusion.

[sttigray]

Apr 2, 2010 14:43:25 GMT -5 truth said:

Many of the moors were drawn from interior Africa. However, that does not mean Nergoes were the majority. The moors were mainly Berbers and Arabs.

Are youreading your own posts? there is a majr contradiction above and I will not be so rude as to point it out, but I will say that in your haste to refute my imagined position, you are only bolstering it.

Apr 2, 2010 14:11:56 GMT -5 sttigray said:

I have read some reports that they were from Ethiopia or even Senegal, and others stating that many were from Upper Egypt. While I know that all were not Black, I am also interested in the origin of the non-black moors as well

[truth]

You provide an eyewitness acct. of a regiment of soldiers. How does that constitute the entirety of the moorish people? Were there whole military units comprised mainly of Negroes? Did the Iranian eyewitness describe an exclusive Negro military unit, he encountered?

Did you bother asking yourself any of these question during your research?

I did not even bother addressing the second quote because that is just too obvious.