Egypt as the originator of African civilization?

[anansi]

The Kemites did settle in other places beyond their immediate boarders, beginning with PepyII and the 11 and 12th dyn kings some of whom Senwosret and Amenemhat.sent out conquest in both directions north and south, at-least we have on record the settlement of a colony in the area of the Black Sea an ancient nation called Kolkhis.

Also whenever the Kemites got in trouble militarily from invaders out side the Nile Valley they high tail it south and royals on the move will mean a lot of folks will follow.

Sometimes they just got upset with a particular ruler and they will pack their bags and move. 250,000 at once now it seems like a high number but??? there it is.

On leaving this city (Meroe), and again mounting the stream, in the same space of time which it took you to reach the capital from Elephantine, you come to the Deserters, who bear the name of Asmach. This word, translated into our language, means "the men who stand on the left hand of the king."
These Deserters are Egyptians of the warrior caste, who, to the number of two hundred and forty thousand, went over to the Ethiopians in the reign of king Psammetichus.
The cause of their desertion was the following:- Three garrisons were maintained in Egypt at that time, one in the city of Elephantine against the Ethiopians, another in the Pelusiac Daphnae, against the Syrians and Arabians, and a third, against the Libyans, in Marea. (The very same posts are to this day occupied by the Persians, whose forces are in garrison both in Daphnae and in Elephantine.) Now it happened, that on one occasion the garrisons were not relieved during the space of three years; the soldiers, therefore, at the end of that time, consulted together, and having determined by common consent to revolt, marched away towards Ethiopia.

Psammetichus, informed of the movement, set out in pursuit, and coming up with them, besought them with many words not to desert the gods of their country, nor abandon their wives and children.

"Nay, but," said one of the deserters with an unseemly gesture, "wherever we go, we are sure enough of finding wives and children." [1]

Arrived in Ethiopia, they placed themselves at the disposal of the king. In return, he made them a present of a tract of land which belonged to certain Ethiopians with whom he was at feud, bidding them expel the inhabitants and take possession of their territory.
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=102
More on the subject^ with appropriate links.

Not all migrations have to include everybody some people stayed put even during the dry Saharan phase some folks just adopted to the new conditions and the Bantu still lives in their supposedly original home land of Camaroon

[truthteacher2007]

Jul 11, 2010 1:26:37 GMT -5 anansi said:

The Kemites did settle in other places beyond their immediate boarders, beginning with PepyII and the 11 and 12th dyn kings some of whom Senwosret and Amenemhat.sent out conquest in both directions north and south, at-least we have on record the settlement of a colony in the area of the Black Sea an ancient nation called Kolkhis.

Also whenever the Kemites got in trouble militarily from invaders out side the Nile Valley they high tail it south and royals on the move will mean a lot of folks will follow.

Sometimes they just got upset with a particular ruler and they will pack their bags and move. 250,000 at once now it seems like a high number but??? there it is.

On leaving this city (Meroe), and again mounting the stream, in the same space of time which it took you to reach the capital from Elephantine, you come to the Deserters, who bear the name of Asmach. This word, translated into our language, means "the men who stand on the left hand of the king."
These Deserters are Egyptians of the warrior caste, who, to the number of two hundred and forty thousand, went over to the Ethiopians in the reign of king Psammetichus.
The cause of their desertion was the following:- Three garrisons were maintained in Egypt at that time, one in the city of Elephantine against the Ethiopians, another in the Pelusiac Daphnae, against the Syrians and Arabians, and a third, against the Libyans, in Marea. (The very same posts are to this day occupied by the Persians, whose forces are in garrison both in Daphnae and in Elephantine.) Now it happened, that on one occasion the garrisons were not relieved during the space of three years; the soldiers, therefore, at the end of that time, consulted together, and having determined by common consent to revolt, marched away towards Ethiopia.

Psammetichus, informed of the movement, set out in pursuit, and coming up with them, besought them with many words not to desert the gods of their country, nor abandon their wives and children.

"Nay, but," said one of the deserters with an unseemly gesture, "wherever we go, we are sure enough of finding wives and children." [1]

Arrived in Ethiopia, they placed themselves at the disposal of the king. In return, he made them a present of a tract of land which belonged to certain Ethiopians with whom he was at feud, bidding them expel the inhabitants and take possession of their territory.
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=102
More on the subject^ with appropriate links.

Not all migrations have to include everybody some people stayed put even during the dry Saharan phase some folks just adopted to the new conditions and the Bantu still lives in their supposedly original home land of Camaroon

Thanks for that info. Its very interesting. I don't doubt that there were migrations from time to time to nearby areas. What I find hard to swallow is that all of Africa was just sitting around picking their noses until some group of Egyptians wandered into town and showed them how to make a fire!

There are certain segments in the Afrocentic camp that immidiately give Egypt the credit for any example of civilization found anywhere in Africa. I do think it highly possible that both West Africa and the Nile Valley share a common ancestor through the migrations of Saharan peoples. It would explain why there are so many parallels between certain cultures in the West and Egypt/Nile valley. But when you want to claim direct Egyptian influence all over the continent that's taking a bit of truth and blowing it way out of proportion.

[imhotep06]

From my research, I think there is a belt of innovation, philosophy and "civilization". I call this "The Ancient Fertile African Crescent." It is an imaginary belt that spreads from Ghana, Nigeria and Cameroon, bending down into Kongo, Uganda, Ethiopia and Sudan. It is this Fertile Crescent that gave rise, through successive migrations into the Sahara, and back-migrations into these respective regions, which gave rise to Nile Valley civilization and the other kingdoms discussed throughout these forums.

There is evidence that many of the ideas you see expressed in the Nile Valley already existed fully formed in these regions. GJK Campbell-Dunn's book "Who Were the Minoans: An African Answer" discusses how the ancient Nigerians and Fulani and Bambara made it to north Africa, the Middle East and even Minoa, Rome, Spain in ancient times and how the languages, architecture, scripts and religious rites attest to their presence in these regions.

Egypt should be looked at as the genius that is possible when different African minds and cultures come together to create something they couldn't have created separate.

[anansi]

It has been said before that there is strong Dna evidence that connects Greeks and Africans one of the root of the Benin hbs gene, maybe through the Minoans and less we for get Bernal although he reduced the amount of loan words into Greek from Kmt still stands pretty high. at 17% if memory serves me correctly down from 25%.

[anansi]

Jul 13, 2010 16:02:12 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

Senegalese Egyptologist Aboubacry Moussa Lam (2003), L'unité culturelle égypto-africaine à travers les formes et les fonctions de l'appui-tête, Dakar, Sénégal : Presses universitaires de Dakar, reported he found similar headrests in Japan.

Well the Japanese had quite elaborate hairdos both male and female
so I could see the need for one but I have to drop by the muesum to see exactly what they looked like as I can't find any on goole image.

[anansi]

Jul 14, 2010 18:51:17 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

I can see that most of you deny the hypothesis of Ancient Egypt being the origin of African civilization. I agree with this, but it seems to me that some features relative to dynastic Egypt can be found in modern Africa and can only be explained by migrations from Ancient Egypt. Not saying that Egyptians civilized or brought anything "superior" to other Africans of course. What do you people think about it?

Arara

I believe there was give and take but if the Sahara and other cultural incubators was before the rise of Kmt proper it will be difficult to figure out much influence Kmt has on it's neighbors take for instance the hangool from Somalia and the Ws scepter from Kmt who gave what to whom or did they originate in the same location and fan out from there.


Below, we have an early and a rather simple rendition dating back to ca. 3500 BC, found in the Hierakonpolis tomb 100, sporting several individuals holding what appear to be Was scepter



The following is a "North Saharan" — from "Kargur Talh" in particular — rendition dating to ca. 6ky to 7ky BP; it notably sports a male figure holding what appears to be a staff, reminiscent of the Was scepter..

exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/11/examples-of-cultural-similarities.html

[imhotep06]

I agree with Arara. One such example I'd like to share from my own observation concerns the Crook and the Flail. The flail in ancient Egypt is called n-kh-kh, sometimes n-kh-kh.w.



Some linguistics will help clarify some things. Firstly, as I have stated before, in many African languages, the word for God is also the word for ancestors, man, or anyone in authority: including the king.

In Egyptian, a word for God is KAKA. In Luvala-Bantu KAKA is "God." KAKA YETU is "our God (as a primary ancestor). In Igbo OKAKA is God. NKAKA in Kikongo refers to an "elder, someone of authority, God." NKAKA in Yoruba is a "Chief." In Kiswahili KAKA is "an elder relative, older brother." In ciLuba you have ntu nkaka / Nkot, cikoyi" I am in essence Old / an Ancestor = Nkaké, Kaka, Nkot, ciKwaya, nKwota, ciKoy, ciKote. The later strengthens the evidence that in Egyptian, the same word for God is the same word for "ancestors." In a paper I am writing I will demonstrate just that with nTr, as again in ciLuba and related languages, nTr/Ndele/Ndela, etc., means "God" and "ancestors." But that is something for later.

We mentioned above that NKAKA among the Yoruba means "Chief" (King). In the picture below, you will see a Yoruba Chief holding a "Crook & Flail" in his hand.



Wa-Shil, Ashil, Mujilu, Ajil (ciLuba), Wsr (ciKam), Osirus (Greek), Awuje-Ori - (Yoruba)



The chance that the Yoruba priest kings/chiefs "by chance correspondence or super distant heritage," created the symbol/tool AND the same word for the item under examination, independently from ciKulu Cya Malelela (ancient Ta Mry) is slim to none.

Comparing our term in the other African languages confirm that KAKA refers to something, someone in a position of authority, who wields tremendous power (the root is KA which means "power").

Egyptian: KAKA "God", n-KHKH.w "Flail" (sign of a God, nTr (see pic with Osiris), king)

Igbo: OKAKA "God"

Kiswahili: KAKA "an elder relative, older brother."

Kikongo: KAKA "God, elder, someone of authority"

ciLuba: ntu nkaka / Nkot, cikoyi" I am in essence Old / an Ancestor = Nkaké, Kaka, Nkot, ciKwaya, nKwota, ciKoy, ciKote.

Yoruba: NKAKA "Chief, flail (symbol of authority)

It should be noted that this same "flail" serves the same function among the Songye people of the Congo. Remember also that ancestors rank higher in knowledge and power in African societies. The order is God, non ancestral forces "gods", The ancestors, the King, the priests, man, animals, plant life, gross matter. Most priests will tell you however that plants are more intelligent than humans (See Dr. Malidoma Some's Of Water and the Spirit).

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Anansi's post of the art piece from Kargur Tahl (Uweinat) in the



central east Sahara from neolithic times disconfirms any scientific
(replicable and falsifiable) proposition that the was originated in
dynastic Egypt and then fanned out elsewhere in Africa.

Clinging to that proposition places it in a non-verifiable cultural or
ideological context, true as propaganda but false as archaeology.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

I think it would good for you to detail exactly what dynastic
Egyptian features are found in your modern Africa and solidly
demonstrate their continuity through both space (routes and
modes of transfer from Egypt) and time (examples showing
their existence in eras between dynastic Egypt and your
modern Africa).

A civilization's features can spead without any migration. But if
migrations can be conclusively confirmed, so much the better.

Jul 14, 2010 18:51:17 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

I can see that most of you deny the hypothesis of Ancient Egypt being the origin of African civilization. I agree with this, but it seems to me that some features relative to dynastic Egypt can be found in modern Africa and can only be explained by migrations from Ancient Egypt. Not saying that Egyptians civilized or brought anything "superior" to other Africans of course. What do you people think about it?

Arara

[imhotep06]

Some notes might bring clarity to this symbol's meaning. The w3s staff is called woko in Hamar and shonkor in Arbore


Note sur le w3s égyptien et le woko hamar
Alain Anselin


Chez les Hamar, le woko “is also extended to the
realm of ritual where the fork of the staff is used to
ward off what is unwanted (disease,
and the hook is used to draw close what is wanted
(health, abundance, peace). Hisada should use the
hooked end of the staff, Ivo said, to attract large funds
and many scholars to the center, and with the forked
he should keep away poverty, thieves and liars."

pg17

i-Medjat
n°4, février 2010
Papyrus électronique des Ankhou

[anansi]

I want to clear something up the crook I get but the frail is it a fly whisk or a farm instrument for threshing wheat?

[truthteacher2007]

Jul 19, 2010 17:01:02 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

The fulfillment of the conditions you mentioned are only in progress among my research as a whole, as I'm currently mostly concentrating on other aspects of the argumentation. My (little) theory is the following: Kemetic linguistic varieties had their peculiarities and innovations when compared to other related African or Asiatic languages. If one finds out that some of its peculiarities and innovations, which I call "Kemeticisms", are found nowhere outside of Kemet and a group of modern African languages where it would need to be proven that they are not local developments, one will have to conclude those words came from Kemetic language. As you said however, those words could be due to diffusion, and not migrations. However, if those Kemeticisms are found, in the said modern African languages, say Kwa languages, to be regular traces of the presence of the Kemetic linguistic system as a whole a nd not only of scattered cultural elements, one will have to conclude that there has been a linguistic contact between Kwa and Kemetic. The most likely hypothesis would be, in my opinion, that Kemetians came down to West Africa rather than some "Kwa" speakers went to Kemet and came back to West Africa teaching Kemetic language around. This is my broad opinion on this issue.

The features I'm mentioning are, among many others, the theonym Sakpatá~Sakpatɛ́ I partly dealt with in a paper I sloppily translated here:

egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=egyto&thread=27&page=2

Jul 16, 2010 14:12:52 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

I think it would good for you to detail exactly what dynastic
Egyptian features are found in your modern Africa and solidly
demonstrate their continuity through both space (routes and
modes of transfer from Egypt) and time (examples showing
their existence in eras between dynastic Egypt and your
modern Africa).

A civilization's features can spead without any migration. But if
migrations can be conclusively confirmed, so much the better.

I suppose anything is possible and I'm not opposed to the idea that things like this happened, I just want to see clear evidence from mainstream academic sources to back it up. Having said that though, even if it did happen, that would not be proof that West Africans nor West African cultures originated in Egypt. West african civilizations developed on their own and are just as old as that in the Nile Valley. Its the insistence of some people that West Africans and West African civilizations are direct transplants from Egypt that I object to. Even if there were Egyptians who somehow mannaged to reach West Africa and settle there, they would have been intergrated into fully mature developed and ancient civilizations in their own rights.

[imhotep06]

Jul 18, 2010 0:18:14 GMT -5 anansi said:

I want to clear something up the crook I get but the frail is it a fly whisk or a farm instrument for threshing wheat?

It is a whisk. The Egyptians just made stylized versions of them. They are symbols of royalty/authority all across Africa. I remember a friend from Tanzania telling me as well that the staffs with the hook at the bottom is a sign that the person holding it is a leader of a kraal. That might be of some value in the future.

[anansi]

Jul 21, 2010 9:28:36 GMT -5 imhotep06 said:

Jul 18, 2010 0:18:14 GMT -5 anansi said:

I want to clear something up the crook I get but the frail is it a fly whisk or a farm instrument for threshing wheat?

It is a whisk. The Egyptians just made stylized versions of them. They are symbols of royalty/authority all across Africa. I remember a friend from Tanzania telling me as well that the staffs with the hook at the bottom is a sign that the person holding it is a leader of a kraal. That might be of some value in the future.

That's what I thought especially east Africa's cattle obsessed culture which they were apart off. Think of the herd of Ra for example.

[zarahan]

[quote author=truthteacher2007
board=hist thread=254 post=1897
time=1273762147]Recently I've been
encountering Afrocentrics on youtube
advancing the theory that all African
civilizations and sciences have their
origins in Ancient Egypt. The basic
theory is that the Ancient Egyptian fled
Egypt and migrated throughout Africa
bringing their knowledge with them.
What do you all think about this? I have
my opinions, but I'd like to hear what
others think.[/quote]

I know of few credible scholars who
regard themselves as 'Afrocentric"
or serious students of African history
espousing any such view that all
"all African civilizations and sciences
have their origins in Ancient Egypt"
or of some mass Egyptian exodus. Who
are these people? Diop or Van
Sertima certainly advance no such
notions of "all African civilizations and
sciences have their origins in Ancient
Egypt."

Such theories certainly appear in the
works of certain white writers
such as influential diffusionist Grafton
Elliot Smith, assorted white
Freemason types. And bogus
'Afrocentrics" are a dime a dozen on
the web, generally white people creating
bogus strawmen to attack.

As the Bass notes, it is much more
accurate to ask about AFRICAN
influences ont he formation of Nile
Valley civilization, such as the
influence of the Saharan/Sudanic peoples
in peopling, culture, religion
etc.. Any radical "diffusionist" thing
seems a red herring to divert attention
from the much more relevant issue of
Africa being the source and genesis.

Some of this genesis for the Nile Valley
is well documented and includes:



* Specific central African tool designs
found at the well known Naqada, Badari
and Fayum archaeological sites in Egypt
(de Heinzelin 1962, Arkell and Ucko,
1956 et al). Shaw (1976) states that "the
early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum,
Badari Naqada I and II are essentially
African and early African social customs
and religious beliefs were the root and
foundation of the ancient Egyptian way
of life."

* Pottery evidence first seen in the
Saharan Highlands then spreading to the
Nile Valley (Flight 1973).

* Art motifs of Saharan rock paintings
showing similarities to those in pharaonic
art. A number of scholars suggest that
these earlier artistic styles influenced
later pharaonic art via Saharans leaving
drier areas and moving into the Nile
Valley taking their art styles with them
(Mori 1964, Blanc 1964, et al)

* Earlier pioneering mummification
outside Egypt. The oldest mummy in
Africa is of a black Saharan child
(Donadoni 1964, Blanc 1964) Frankfort
(1956) suggests that it is thus possible to
understand the pharaonic worldview by
reference to the religious beliefs of these
earlier African precursors. Attempts to
suggest the root of such practices are
due to Caucasoid civilizers from
elsewhere are thus contradicted by the
data on the ground.

* Several cultural practices of Egypt
show strong similarities to an African
totemic clan base. Childe (1969, 1978),
Aldred (1978) and Strouhal (1971)
demonstrate linkages with several
African practices such as divine kingship
and the king as divine rainmaker.

* Physical similarities of the early Nile
valley populations with that of tropical
Africans. Such connections are
demonstrated in the work of numerous
scholars such as Thompson and Randall
Mclver 1905, Falkenburger 1947, and
Strouhal 1971. The distance diagrams of
Mukherjee, Rao and Trevor (1955) place
the ancient Badarians genetically near
'black' tribes such as the Ashanti and the
Taita. See also the "Issues of lumping
under Mediterranean clusters" section
above for similar older analyses.

* Serological (blood) evidence of
genetic linkages. Paoli 1972 for example
found a significant resemblance between
ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians
and the black northern Haratin who are
held to be the probable descendants of
the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).

* Language similarities which include
several hundred roots ascribable to
African elements (UNESCO 1974)

* Ancient Egyptian origin stories
ascribing origins of the gods and their
ancestors to African locations to the
south and west of Egypt (Davidson
1959)

* Advanced state building and political
unity in Nubia, including writing,
administrative apparatus and insignia
some 300 years before dynastic Egypt,
and the long demonstrated interchange
between Nubia and Egypt (Williams
1980)

*Newer studies (Wendorf 2001,
Wilkinson 1999, et al.) confirm these
older analyses. Excavations from Nabta
Playa, located about 100km west of Abu
Simbel for example, suggest that the
Neolithic inhabitants of the region were
migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa, based
on cultural similarities and social
complexity which is thought to be
reflective of Egypt's Old
Kingdom[166]Other scholars (Wilkinson
1999) present similar material and
cultural evidence- including similarities
between predynastic Egypt and
traditional African cattle-culture, typical
of Southern Sudanese and East African
pastoralists of today, and various cultural
and artistic data such as iconography on
rock art found in both Egypt and in the
Sudan.[167]

*Recent data from other research
suggests numerous trade contacts
between the Nile Valley peoples from
early times. The excavations of German
archaeologist Gunter Dreyer (1999) at
Predynastic Abydos for example
unearthed obsidian bowls, a material
traced to the nearby Sudan or Ethiopia.
Excavations at Hierakonpolis by
archaeologist Renee Friedman (1998)
also demonstrates ritual masks similar to
those used further south of Egypt, and
significant amounts of obsidian, also
traced to Ethiopian quarry sites.[168].

*As regards population types and
origins, one contemporary review of
older evidence acknowledges that "the
ancient Egyptians, especially southern
Egyptians, exhibited physical
characteristics that are within the range
of variation for ancient and modern
indigenous peoples of the Sahara and
tropical Africa."[169]

www.zhs41.net/historyafrican/index.htm

It is AFRICA that is the launching point,
the motor, the generator - not
Egypt. Indeed Egypt itself is the
beneficiary of the African genesis. It
would
of course develop its own unique style
and culture, and it would also
have its own trading links with various
parts of Africa, but make no mistake, the
GENESIS is AFRICA, via the Sahara
and the Sudan. The
people ethnically the closest to the
ancient Egyptians are NUBIANS not
Europeans or "Middle Easterners."
Again, it is the Sahara/Sudan that
is the African motor or driver.. The
Sahara once extended across
1/3 of Africa, not as desert but lush
greenbelt- allowing plenty of
scope for movement in certain eras of
African history,

Assorted diffusionist red herrings and
bogus "Afrocentrics" cannot disguise the
fundamental facts, although they try
hard. The more relevant questions is
Africa as the starting point and a
fundamental genesis for Egypt.