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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 8, 2010 13:52:13 GMT -5
Thanks. I found a way to see the font in the post. Still looking Etile's translation over. Reserving all comment for the moment.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 18, 2010 19:49:29 GMT -5
Etile's work, though fresh, is novel on several accounts. I do not deny the correctness of his choices but in some instances they veer from the context of the sacred work.
Of course all works of translation call for an amount of interpolation and Etile is certainly allowed to do that just as we are allowed to critique its application.
From his break notations he used the KV17 wall version. I have alligned his mdw ntr with his translation and ask if you can forward it to him for his review. However, one of his lines is left untranslated in the posts you put up. I mean mdw ntr line 10 following the translated line that begins with "You are those ..."
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 23, 2010 14:31:16 GMT -5
This is how I aligned Etile's transcription with his translation. Is it possible yet to present it to him to assure it's correct?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 22, 2012 9:46:40 GMT -5
Welcome back!
Horus' first line in scene 30 makes a two fold division. A - blacks B - reds
Egyptians and Nehesu (in general) reside along the river. They are darkest in colour and the river bank is black from silt.
"Asiatics" and Libyans occupy desert lands away from the Nile. They are lighter in colour and red is associated with the desert.
I conclude that in the context of scene 30 kmt refers to Egyptians and Nehesu, direct creations of Ra/Heru and dSrt alludes to Asiatics and Libyans under Sekhmet (Ra's proxy).
Are there exceptions? Sure. The Book of Gates wasn't designed to be a exaustive definitive ethnography. Intyw and most Medja were desert dwellers yet they are classed among Nehesu in various texts throughout native Egypt's ~2800 years of literature. Also in its art through the ages are examples of Asiatics and Libyans painted in the conventional Egyptian skin tone and some even darker than that.
I can't locate a copy of Roulin but have seen a line drawing of the 7th Hour in The Book of the Night and read Hornung's characterization that it lumps Nehesu, Temehu, and Aamu altogether and makes Egyptians`into both riverien and desert inhabitants.
I have reserves about that judgement as Egyptians considered the desert as anti-Maat chaos and hunted desert creatures to symbolize Maat conquering Chaos nor have I seen them describe themselves as "sand crawlers" anywhere in their literature I've examined.
But if that's actually in the text then it is what it is. Also, Egyptians delimited lands from the 1st cataract to the sea as Egypt proper but incorporated Nehesu territory into a greater Egypt in the New Kingdom while the Nehesu under Piye at least saw the whole of Kush, Ta-Seti/Wawat, and Egypt as one under Amun's sovereignty and granting of rulership by right.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 28, 2012 14:58:58 GMT -5
I'm pretty much stuck without a copy of either Roulin or even better a photo or repro of the scene and its hieroglyphics. Until then I cannot further comment on The Book of the Night. The major Libyan branches are the Tehenu and the Temehu. The Tehenu enter Egyptian history a slight few centuries before the Temehu are mentioned. Both were known by the end of OK. Tehenu wore crossbands, their sidelock was loose behind the ear. Bates had remarked on the Tehenu's brun complexion based on Sahure's painted reliefs, and others. Temehu wore a long narrow cloaked knotted at one shoulder. Their sidelock was a braided temple lock in front of the ear. Unlike the Tehenu they were sometimes given a creamy colour in the art but there are plenty examples of copper tone Temehu too. Thanks to Sahel (Siptah), yourself, Djehuti, and Ish Gebor for the images.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 29, 2012 12:57:49 GMT -5
Much thanks, this stuff is tres magnifique The 7th Hour (R VI b) etch shows clothing and hair details of the ethnies indicated by the hieroglyphs on Roulin pp. 93, 94. If you can find it possible to allow us pp. 91, 92, 95, 96, ie if they show the mdw ntjr for figures 1, 2, 7, 8. 7 and 8 must delineate who's the black and which is the red sets of Rometu. Will post up purpose, comparisons, and contrast of these two books -- Gates & Night as time permits. Nights presents no beatified multi-ethnic Herd of Ra but Egyptians and enemies. I wonder how the Nights' Horus' Discourse differs from Gates. Roulin seems a definitive edition. One thing it's missing afaict is a facsimile of the sarcophagous, ceiling, wall, or column of the original showing integrated art and text for at least one of the eleven versions he presents. EDIT: Now I see pp. 83, 84 have lower register 1, 2, and the beginning of the blank art space between 2 and 3 reserved for the Discourse of Horus text. It's good to have all columns of the glyphs for their variances in spelling and also for the determinatives. Columns TT33b Late Period and V5 Ptolemaic Period both have determinatives that let us know 3, 4, 5, and 6 are "belligerent foreigners." In Seti I, Ramses VI a, and Sheshonq III only the Nehesu have determinatives, RVIa the "belligerent foreigners" determinatives and CIII what looks to me like the "friends" -- A11 (?) -- determinatives. Still need the missing pp 95, 96 with the 7, 8 hieroglyphs. Do pp 91, 92 have the conclusion of Horus' Discourse?
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Post by Ausaremka on Jul 1, 2012 21:41:18 GMT -5
May Ra keep them all in his hands. Also since someone tried to show the difference between the other AFRICANS.... not just the Nubian in the picture. I see Shamar Moore and Wesley Snipes..... who invited El Haffid and John Smith to the party? LOL There are a lot of differences this thread was not for that. Try and stick to topic. As you put the guy from KMT and a white guy next to each other and that would be a hair disaster from the picture you posted and the skin color is different for them all. History told us how they felt about the Hyksos and the Medjay who came to stomp and snuff them out. Weni was the captain on patrol for a lot of these dismissings and a few others. I'm not sure why you would pose such a comparison. It's what children do when they first see each other is look at their differences instead of unifiying on like comparrisons. However most children figure out their common likeness and enjoy each others company. Your comments are foolish. Re-think and repost in respect to the actual conversation this topic request.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jul 16, 2012 22:09:13 GMT -5
Well, this is all I could come up with so far Arara. The asterisks mark lines you left untouched. This is only transliteration of the glyphs, primarily Seti I "corrected" by Rameses VI a&b but also referencing Petamenophis and even the 30th dynasty and early Ptolemaic versions as needed. This is the first time out and of course revisions will be made. I left swt alone this time around and there are probably better meanings I could have came up with for a few of the glyphs. Still aways off from a translation based on the meanings of the transliterated glyphs. Though not grammatical the meanings still make for a somewhat intelligible reading. I used Vygus.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 24, 2015 6:43:54 GMT -5
This scene appears in a sacred afterlife text standardly called The Book of Gates. The gates, or as I prefer, the portals are the hours after sunset. At the 4th hour in it's 5th chapter titled The Gate of Teka Hra there's this 30th vignette or scene (herein BG 4:5 s.30). Though the scene appears on a few 19th & 20th dynasty pharaonic tomb walls, it's best known representation is the one from Seti I. Several Egyptologists made repros of the scene but this one here from Lepsius' Denkmaeller is the most authentic full color repro. Some overlook it in favor of Minutoli's gross racial stereotype version or should I say, caricature, which sets it apart from those repros by Belzoni, Champollion, or Rosellini which are so much more faithful than Minutoli though not as richly accurate as Lepsius.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 24, 2015 21:38:49 GMT -5
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jan 25, 2015 1:52:39 GMT -5
I notice that all the nations are repreesentd four times. Is there a reason for this? do they represent various regions within each nation or does the number four have some symbolic significance?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 26, 2015 0:01:40 GMT -5
I notice that all the nations are repreesentd four times. Is there a reason for this? do they represent various regions within each nation or does the number four have some symbolic significance? Aaagh, ya got me! Never examined the use of four or its possible symbolic meanings. Three sun locations are indicated by these three generic peoples: sunrise - Aamu (Levant and Arabian plate peoples) noon ---- Nehesu (peoples of Africa upriver from TaMeri) sunset -- Tjemehu (African peoples of the Sahara & Mediterranean) TaWy is the only nation in the scene and the others' ordering is in relation to Ret Remitu orientation watching the sun. But tell me some of your ideas about the significance of four individuals of four people? You think they use four because there are four types of cattle in Ra's Herd? I'd agree because three is the usual denomination for plural but they use four. I'm open to any ideas.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jan 27, 2015 14:25:16 GMT -5
I notice that all the nations are repreesentd four times. Is there a reason for this? do they represent various regions within each nation or does the number four have some symbolic significance? Aaagh, ya got me! Never examined the use of four or its possible symbolic meanings. Three sun locations are indicated by these three generic peoples: sunrise - Aamu (Levant and Arabian plate peoples) noon ---- Nehesu (peoples of Africa upriver from TaMeri) sunset -- Tjemehu (African peoples of the Sahara & Mediterranean) TaWy is the only nation in the scene and the others' ordering is in relation to Ret Remitu orientation watching the sun. But tell me some of your ideas about the significance of four individuals of four people? You think they use four because there are four types of cattle in Ra's Herd? I'd agree because three is the usual denomination for plural but they use four. I'm open to any ideas. I'm really stumped, but it seems to me there must be a significance, otherwise, why not just have one person representing each nation? I do know that in ancient times numeric values has spiritual significances. For example, looking at the bible and the amount of times 40 is used. The flood was 40 days and 40 nights, the isrealites wandered for 40 years. What the numeric significance in this context is is beyond me. I though maybe it could represent the four cardinal points, north south east and west, but that's just a guess. I've always been intrigued by this particular mural. Are there any names above or below the figures? Could they represent different regions or major ethnic groups with each country? We tend to think of these people as one entity, but perhaps their own view of themselves and others was a bit more complex?
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jan 27, 2015 14:29:23 GMT -5
On closer inspection, there are different symbols infront of each figure. Do you know what they say or mean? perhaps these could be clues as to the repetition of the figures.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 27, 2015 22:29:58 GMT -5
On closer inspection, there are different symbols infront of each figure. Do you know what they say or mean? perhaps these could be clues as to the repetition of the figures. Yes I know the hieroglyphics. Since I first joined ES in Nov 2004 I've written and further developed insights on this, scene 30 of the Gate of Teka Hra in the Book of Gatesso much that I'm burned out with it and even now can't even correspond with an academic interested in my interpretation. I have to credit Manu Ampim for helping me with BG 4.5.30 more than a decade ago though my view is independent of his. Please forgive me for copping out and asking you to search the keys altakruri "book of gates" altakruri "black soil" altakruri "bg 4:5" altakruri "cattle of ra" I can't even find it myself but should I stumble on it I'll post my latest BG 4.5.30 write ups under my Tukuler moniker. Again, sorry.
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