Vengeance Is Mine Sayeth The Lord

[mellomusings]

So I know this is sort of off topic, but a friend invited me to bible study so I decided to tag along although the focus of the session was forgiveness the orator for the night mentioned above quote. And I thought of the Crusades in which Christians saw themselves enacting the vengeance and wrath of God by seizing the Holy Lands by the sword from the hands of the Muslims (Even though the first crusade was successful the rest were pretty much blunders with the Holy Lands being captured by the Muslims as well as the capital of the Byzantine Empire and the fact they were fighting basically over the same religion more or less depending on you view such things.) but anyway I find it funny how some people readily quote this particular scripture but also think that the Crusades was a justified cause. Please share your thoughts but keep in mind this isn't to rant about religion or what was the real intention of the Crusades nor am I Christian I just have respect for such things and I think that the bible and similar holy books have gems of wisdom here and there so with that said I look foward to hear what you guys have to say.

[kel]

What is your inquiry/point ??

[anansi]

Well that's because both religions are basically about imposing order or supremacy very rarely do the priest, Imam Rabbi disagree with God,look at it this way, both Martin Luther King and the head of the KKK worshiped the same God , but walked away with two separate understanding of the same book, the same with Islam, and not for nothing the Buddhist in Myanmar are absolutely genocidal.

Man cannot live up to the lofty ideals they set for themselves.

[kel]

huh ?

[zarahan]

I have never heard of that passage being used to justify any crusades. What historical
writing shows this? WHat histories of the Crusades for example? It sounds strange.

THe passage is taken from Romans 12 and can be seen in the quick link below
www.ethiopicbible.com/books/%E1%8B%88%E1%8B%B0-%E1%88%AE%E1%88%9C-%E1%88%B0%E1%8B%8E%E1%89%BD-12

Romans 12
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

-------------------------------------------

As can be seen this has nothing to do with any burning, slashing crusading activity.
In fact just the opposite- the faithful who suffer unjustly are counseled to use patience-
for the vengeance will sooner or later be served- like we say these days: "What goes around,
comes around."

And in fact the verse: "If thine enemy hunger feed him.. for thou shalt heap coals of fire
upon his head.." means that the patient, forgiving conduct of those who suffer
unjustly will burn or affect the consciences of your persecutor or enemy. "Coals of fire" means that
their consciences will bother them. They did you wrong, but here you are doing them good..
That has an effect on people believe it or not.. and if they don;t make amends, they will have
to answer for that unjust conduct, sooner or later in this life, and on the other side.

Martin Luther King used this moral framework in part- the patient, peaceful conduct of civil rights marchers
who were beat up, bombed, spat upon, etc heaped "coals of fire" on both white liberal and conservative
consciences, and led to some reforms because of those burning consciences. Course things did
not always work out smoothly, sometimes 2 steps forward, 1 back, but the general principle is there.
And the patient suffering is also redemptive, transforming the sufferer and building their moral strength
for the long haul, as King also emphasized.

So the meaning and context has little do do with any militant fanatics slashing and burning. If a Crusader
said vengeance is mine, he is clearly referring to HIS own personal vengeance, not GOd's. THe passage is
pretty clear, and King drew on it as such.

What did the orator mention about the quote?

[kel]

Im Not sure you even understand what you are reading or trying to interpret or even trying to say.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

biblehub.com/luke/19-27.htm

[zarahan]

Yep, but that parable in Luke is pretty much understood as a figure for Judgement
to come- future vengeance is still in the hands, not of a mere man, but a divine person-
Christ- God in human form -in Christian teaching. The book "A Stone of Hope" about how
prophetic religion helped defeat Jim Crow shows similar type of use and understanding.
Hence even as they marched, civil rights strivers time and tine again warned about a final
judgement, not only as regards the segregationist system but when personal conduct in this life
was considered, the looming reality of a judgment to come- for which there needed to
be a salvation, in the person of the Christ.

The present time is thus favorable for repentance, and salvation, freely open to all men who take it,
and segregationists, indeed men in general, are urged to take advantage of it- now, before they
pass death's portal. But there is a day coming, when the favorable time period is over, and the
reality of accountability on the other side comes due- "has given all judgment to the Son" (John 5: 22).
And as Acts 17:30-31 says when God has appointed a day, and a man (Christ), by which he will judge the
habitable earth.

30- "And the times of this ignorance God has overlooked; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31- Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man
whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
www.ethiopicbible.com/books/%E1%8B%A8%E1%88%90%E1%8B%8B%E1%88%AD%E1%8B%AB%E1%89%B5-%E1%88%A5%E1%88%AB-17

If justice was not served in this world the civil rights marchers were confident, it would be in the next.
In the meantime, they would do what they had to do, calling on divine aid. This teaching of a
final accountability on the other side either on a personal basis or for broader groupings and
nations appears in several places. In Revelation the severest divine judgments to come, will fall
on the Western nations. So yep, there is a day of vengeance coming, but it will not be in man's hands.