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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 19, 2019 11:35:45 GMT -5
Don't start none won't be none. I'll quit when you do Mr. But say anything and it doesn't hide the fact you're incapable of contributing to the topic of racial attitude and Algerian ethnic diversity. Public forum. Any and all posts are public. Any and every member can comment on a post. Otherwise communicate privately. "This a public forum. Don't want comments? Send primate messages." Al, you've had too much rum or your women gave you a brain rotting strand of syphilis. "Primate messages" Al!? Quit it you old clown, I don't want to laugh at you as much as I have. I asked a simple question, as I've stated above, feel free to answer my question if you can. As for your 'advice', it's, to quote you, SugarHoneyIcedTea to me. Of course, we can keep this 'conversation' going or we can ignore each other. The choice is yours.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 19, 2019 11:45:56 GMT -5
Guys guys chill and dial it back! with the hostilities.. Let's disagree without being disagreeable. I will not tolerate insult. I will return, get what's given. You may turn the cheek but I'm not Christian. You have mad people skills that I respect but altercating parties don't share equal blame. Someone starts it. I never understood why society at large would blame the responder as well as the initiator. Please explain, thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 14:12:42 GMT -5
Thank you for your gentlemanly and scholarly response. Your first link deals with surveys done about French attitudes to Arabs and Blacks in France. The second link is about slavery in Mauritania, not Libya. None of the facts in these documents justifies your portentous tone: "Black or Dark skinned Africans were the original Northern or coastal north Africans and is connected to you modern North Africans ..so indulge in racist behavior at your own risk, but know that when the sht hit the fan, you will be told to hold your own nuts. " I asked you for statistics because I was acquainted with an Arab engineer, his mother, his French wife, their sons and her family when I lived in France. He lived the life of a professional. It wouldn't surprise me to know that he faced discrimination, he was swarthy. I would guess that his situation was no worse than what black Americans with similar credentials faced in the USA. Decades later, I worked with an Algerian engineer living in the USA. He was usually mistaken for a Mexican.
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Post by zarahan on Jan 23, 2019 1:10:23 GMT -5
I would guess that his situation was no worse than what black Americans with similar credentials faced in the USA True to an extent. Algerians suffered/suffer clear discrimination but unlike Black Americans they were never denied the vote if they were citizens, nor were they forced to attend all-Algerian schools separate from French whites. Nor did the French government enact housing policies that refused to back home loan financing if they lived dared to live outside certain ghetto areas. Nor was government education assistance denied or sandbagged for military war veterans unless they attended inferior segregated schools. IN terms of color - a bit easier ability to 'pass'-the skin color of many Algerians ca be as light or light brown as the Mediterranean zone Frenchman. ALgerian Discrimination in part was based on religion, language and political hostility based on France's lost colonial war etc, but all this is without the snarling color racism TO THE SAME EXTENT that characterized/characterizes America. France had deep racism but it was relatively speaking, a more tolerant place compared to the US. Black professionals like doctors for example were forced to work in dismal conditions, (if at all in their chosen profession), and it took the threat of the federal government withholding funds to hospitals in the south after the Civil RIghts Act that forced them to finally do right by these skilled people. It took the 1940s for professionals like black teachers to finally get equal pay with whites in SOME states. And this was only after decades of protests and lawsuits. There have been anti-discrimination marches and movements among Algerians in France, but nothing like the scale or long struggle as that among Afro-AMericans for over a century. In addition, black people from sub-Saharan Africa in France report about the same or even more discrimination than North Africans like Algerians. www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/museucitiesfra_20080101_0.pdfThe above being said, of course there is still strong discrimination against Algerians, and the younger generation feels it keenly. So there are some similarities with the Afro-American situation. It would be interesting to compare responses and remedies in France and the US.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 23, 2019 11:15:30 GMT -5
I don't understand what what French Algerians have to do with it. Senegalese, Maliens, Burkinabes, Nigeriens. These nationalies in France bear much more relevancy to Black American treatment. Unlike Algeria, they aren't anti-black physiognomy.
Algeria is a country of its own.
Miss Algeria and haters are at home. Political independence was won through armed struggle. Fanon belonged to an Algerian freedom movement. Since Cleaver's time Algerian anti-blackism lost its secrecy.
Black Americans are a minority population in a country not their own. They have no land of their own. They have no language of their own. They have several cultures. Their position can't really be compared with Algeria. Algerian blacks are indigenous in Saharan Algeria. Ourgla in the north was historically indigenous black. Genomicist avoid sampling it like the plague.
De-africanized Diasporans see things through minority colored glasses. They don't speak an ancestral language. They guage everything by Euro standards. The concerns of nation maintenance are not theirs.
If Algerian to Algerian sees racism in Algerian social media re this Miss Algeria then that's what it is. It doesn't matter if the woman's facial esthetics are deemed unattractive to most people in, below, or above the Sahara.
Notions of black inferiority and ugliness precede Euro colonialism. I can't find it before Arab colonialism. 'Arabs' and Europeans made more out of Hham mythos then Jews ever did.
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Post by zarahan on Jan 23, 2019 21:52:30 GMT -5
Senegalese, Maliens, Burkinabes, Nigeriens. These nationalies in France bear much more relevancy to Black American treatment. Unlike Algeria, they aren't anti-black physiognomy.
Agreed. But then what about the argument that given anti-black colorism or anti-dark colorism in Algeria, anti-Algerian feeling among the white French should not elicit massive sympathy from other Africans, aside from the anti-colonial solidarity from the 50s/60s era, and a generalized sympathy re common enemies? Especially since dark sub-Saharans may be catching worse hell than the lighter-skinnad Algerians?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 24, 2019 6:49:25 GMT -5
Senegalese, Maliens, Burkinabes, Nigeriens. These nationalies in France bear much more relevancy to Black American treatment. Unlike Algeria, they aren't anti-black physiognomy.Agreed. But then what about the argument that given anti-black colorism or anti-dark colorism in Algeria, anti-Algerian feeling among the white French should not elicit massive sympathy from other Africans, aside from the anti-colonial solidarity from the 50s/60s era, and a generalized sympathy re common enemies? Especially since dark sub-Saharans may be catching worse hell than the lighter-skinnad Algerians? What about it? You think sub-Mediterranean Algerians have massive sympathy for other Africans? You really think anti-blackness isn't institutional? The Algerians were the 1st to break away from our ASA back in the 70's. Except for my old roomie, didn't even see 'em in the N Afr division of our traveling African Dance Troupe. Now nearly 50 yrs later it's africasacountry.com/2017/08/algerias-black-fear/"It fortifies the fictive border between North Africa and Sub-Saharan or Black Africa, with a clean, virgin North Africa needing to protect itself from a vile, infectious black Africa. Thus, black migrants’ existence becomes synonymous with the diseases they are said to bring to Algeria, and this fear of a blackening of Algeria is supported by the public campaign to keep blacks out of Algeria." - Ampson Hagan - (apparently not related to Helene) www.goethe.de/prj/ruy/en/m/mig/21364203/21383080.html"If you’d asked me 15 years ago if there was racism in Algeria, I’d have replied “no”. I was in denial, like many Algerians. Today, when I denounce racism in Algeria, people are shocked, but at least there is a debate. Some Algerians are starting to take pride in their African roots. Black Algerians are not sufficiently represented in society, and it’s still taboo to marry a black person. Sometimes I am asked from which African country Fayçal comes from...well Algeria, of course! It’s an African country! The pan-African Algeria in which I grew up was an Algeria which my father dreamed of," [3rd example posted once found. Bus incident, 'white' calls black citizen a slave. Tells black you're not in America where anyone cares about you, you have no rights here. And indeed every Algae on the bus said nada, not a damn thing.] That there're terms like Afro-Algerian or Afro-Tunisian tells you where the mind of these sub-Mediterraneans is at. Afro-Tunisian. Can you imagine that? The Aourigha, landlords of Khart Haddas, is where Africa came from. SMH at Tunisia's education system. Dr Clarke warned: You have no friends but you can start with the mirror. How can one have empathy for a man, just because another man gives you both a wedgie, when one's fellow wedgied man's got his foot up your asz? SMH w/Woodson.
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Post by kel on Jan 24, 2019 14:13:43 GMT -5
"Bus incident, 'white' calls black citizen a slave. Tells black you're not in America where anyone cares about you, you have no rights here."
Very telling................Liberation starts with the Afro-American. "Africans" and "Black Africans" better take note and get some USA brothas over there to tell you what time it is.
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Post by kel on Jan 24, 2019 14:15:57 GMT -5
"You really think anti-blackness isn't institutional?"
no it isnt.
racism is in the racist. Not, any "institution"
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Post by zarahan on Jan 24, 2019 16:08:13 GMT -5
A bit naive. You forget that: (a) institutions can be racist as witnessed by the many police departments in history that not only refused to hire blacks but openly abused them at whim. THings are not so OPEN as in the past, and there has been improvement as far as OPEN racism, but some problems remain. t too long ago some "institutions" like school districts refused to give black teachers equal pay. (b) Individual racists have every incentive and use multiple opportunities to apply public and institutional power to lock in the benefits they gain from their racism. Thus racist whites manipulated or persuaded various governments to route roads through black neighborhoods, uprooting and destroying them, when more efficient, less costly straighter routes would have passed through white neighborhoods. The roads also served as barriers to "wall off" the black areas. White racists, indeed all whites in these areas gained clear benefits. For example: --The new roads opened up white suburbia where most of the goods jobs, schools and housing are. Blacks sandbagged in various ghettoes thus did not have a fair shot at competing for such things. White institutions like Real Estate Associations and Boards cooperated by having their members "steer" negro families away from white areas. Kaching! White profit. --WHite property values held up or went up. After all- less noisy, busy roads bisecting white neighborhoods. --Blacks were herded into the worse areas, where they paid premium rents for substandard property. Kaching! White profit. Those who did not move could be, and were forced to move by governmental (yes that's "institutional") power --As more white people moved to the affluent suburbs, older white neighborhoods lost population. These aging properties could be sold off to the culluds, desperate for decent living space, at premium prices, with the same racist realtors raking off a percentage for their respective brokerages, not to mention white banks and mortgage lenders getting a cut.. Kaching! White profit. Sweet! Using the power of institutions, white people get paid, all down the line. On top of the above, white governments and banks (yes "institutions") denied families home ownership financing if they moved into the "wrong" neighborhood than was "proper" for their ethnic group. Just the presence of a single black family on a block could trigger a "redlining" action by banks, and governments guaranteeing home mortgages- (the FHA for example). Once a zone was "redlining" it became very difficult to get such loans. Black veterans who had fought for this country found out that their VA or FHA loans were only good in worse-off "negro" areas. White Institutions deploying power, did all this, not individual racists. See the book the COlor of Laws-How government segregated America www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/Again, powerful institutions did this, using raw financial or police power, not individual racists fulminating down at the redneck bar bout "the n*&(rs." You gotta learn more about real history.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 24, 2019 16:38:35 GMT -5
In the inner city elevated multi-lane hiways allow heavy military machinery high ground advantage targetting and defense.
Why?
Y ppl expected protracted armed struggle like by people once nationally colonized by Euro powers.
"No, that was not a riot they saw down in the slum That was dress rehearsal for things yet to come" - the Last Poets -
But something BA's knew that ytes didn't.
" will party and and party and and party and and paaaartay! Some might even die before the revolution comes. " - the Last Poets -
A book, that at least the 1st edition had, by Perkins -- Home is a Dirty Street -- had a chart diametrically showing how 'Hoods at the time were internal colonies.
[I could go in an change it myself but I think it's time to edit the profanity filter. Many words in it are now in comic books and even Eddie Murphy's Dr Doolittle said N I G G E R.
I mean in 2019 everybody hears profanity and pornography from cars sitting waiting for the light to change. Kids hear urban radio host talk about sucking farts outta Patti Labelle's ass. Chalk it up to hip-hop 'culture'. ESR word filter is too prudish for this day and time. And yes I remember I the prude who partially built the damn filter.
The Last Poets quote got censored by the filter. Now it doesn't make sense. ]
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 24, 2019 17:20:23 GMT -5
Please go to your local institute of higher learning. Register or get permission to observe introductory courses in Poli-Sci and Black Studies. Failing that, at least search the 'net. Theres no such thing as water. Theres just oceans lakes rivers etc. Introduced in the Panther era, the term institutional racism is a well known social concept for over 45 yrs now. Even the whack SPLC uses the term. But of course you have the personal right of agency and self-determination to still think the sun actually rises and sets after Earth's rotation has been explained and exampled for you. Go thank Zarahan for bothering to drop some examples for you. "You really think anti-blackness isn't institutional?" no it isnt. racism is in the racist. Not, any "institution"
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Post by kel on Jan 26, 2019 15:40:14 GMT -5
Racists who work in an institution create racist policy. So the racism is a product of the racists not the institution.
Solution: remove racists from policy making authority in institutions. Surely, technology is developed to the point where testing can done to ferret out racists by psych testing and brain scans.
Of course this means that large amounts of whites will be disqualified from policy making authority jobs and affirmative anti racist policies will have to be maintained.
Like in the NFL. Black (minority) coaches MUST be interview for coach openings. - the Rooney Rule. The working assumption is that white owners and execs are racist in their nature when hiring ( a correct one ) and hence need to be forced to at least interview a 'black' so as to dial up the eventual pressure to reduce or suppress their racism.
is it perfect....no. but it keeps the matter on the agenda so it cant be ignored once the antiblack racism emerges in hiring 'policy'
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Post by zarahan on Jan 27, 2019 12:18:21 GMT -5
Racists who work in an institution create racist policy. So the racism is a product of the racists not the institution.You need to brush up on basic history like Takuri says. If as you say above, racists create "racist policy" that policy is often put into action by an institution. If an institution is applying racist policy then the institution can legitimately be called racist. Individuals created the racist policy and the institution implements it. BOTH can be legitimately said to be racist. But you set up a false dichotomy as an either-or proposition. Furthermore institutions outlive people, and can, and do carry on the same policies even after individual racists depart, because the policies keep conferring benefits on favored people. Black (minority) coaches MUST be interview for coach openings. - the Rooney Rule. The working assumption is that white owners and execs are racist in their nature when hiring ( a correct one ) and hence need to be forced to at least interview a 'black' so as to dial up the eventual pressure to reduce or suppress their racism. Nothing wrong with the rule if legit jobs and candidates are available. But it is no panacea. Many so called "affirmative action" implementations offer just that - the minority guy may get a few more "outreach" interviews- but nothing much beyond that. Business continues as usual and discrimination is alive and well in labor markets as credible scholars show. Racism is more subtle these days. In the link given, employers were eliminating prospective job candidates based on "black-sounding" names. If you were named Tariq or Lakeisha, (or sounded like it) it was much more likely you won't even make the interview pool. Another study found that white male job applicants with criminal records are more likely to get called back for an interview than black men without one, even when all other qualifications are indistinguishable. Even more interesting,the study found that the prospective "black" applicants had to have EIGHT ADDITIONAL YEARS OF EXPERIENCE to get the same number of job callbacks as the prospective "white "candidate. The higher the quality of the resume, the" stronger the racial bias became. This debunks the standard white propaganda line bout "unqualified" blacks. The blacks in the study actually had to be substantially MORE qualified to even get a shot at an interview. -- Bertrand and Mullalinathan 2004. Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? American Economic Review. Sept 2004- 991-1013 Solution: remove racists from policy making authority in institutions. Surely, technology is developed to the point where testing can done to ferret out racists by psych testing and brain scans. LOL.. Your trolling humor is improving..
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Post by kel on Jan 27, 2019 15:00:17 GMT -5
Trolling how so. I am dead serious. Racism is in the racist. Racists have right to be racist, but they do not have right to work in institutions and make policy that affects the lives of millions. Solution is simple: remove them, ban them, monitor them, etc............ You seem to be a bit triggered by the suggestion. why ?
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