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Post by olehint on Aug 28, 2010 3:30:41 GMT -5
The Book of Gates divides humans in the Afterlife World into two sets, KM.t.nwt and DSHR.t.nwt. Admittedly the book only appears for a short while in the millenia of AE's existance and then only in/on pharaonic tombs/sarcophagi. If Nehesu aren't of KM.t.nwt then they must belong to the DSHR.t.nwt along with the Aamu and Tjemehu. Only thing is that the Nehesu are black skinned and dshr means red whereas km means black. But words do have secondary, tertiary, and further meanings. So KM.t.nwt's primary meaning is "Egypt," but maybe only in it's specific BoG context it has a secondary meaning of "Black community?" An exhaustive listing of KM.t.nwt within texts would be incisive. just to play devils advocate what if the KM is people of the black soil land and the DSHR is people of red soil lands?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 5, 2010 11:18:50 GMT -5
The earliest use of KM.t supposedly refering to Egypt/Egyptians as a country or people is on an inscription from Denderah going back to the 6th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom according to the two Wörterbuch authors Erman and Grapow. Without a determinative km.t simply means black or complete/ultimate. Without a determinative dshr.t simply means red. If a determinative for people is used with either then it means a people of that colour. If a determinative for land is used with either then it means a land having that color. The English word desert does not derive from the Rn KM.t word dshr.tDSHR.t is a noun that means red thing from DSHR, an adjective. The Worterbuch has 3 pages worth of DSHR/dshr words, including one for Set the original "red devil." Desert ultimately derives from the Latin desertummeaning abandoned thing, forsaken. While the desert sand can be red the Rn KM.t words for a desert are nw:x3st x3s.t:X3ST mrw:x3st zmy.t:x3st As for KM.t it is attested in Old Kingdom Egyptic as in WB v5 p125 in the term "holy black cattle" where it is followed by the penis, bull, and plural determinatives. Also in WB v5 p126 KM.t with a determinative for land is an Old Kingdom usage. Then there are three km.t / dshr.t juxtaposition terms in the WB, two of which appear to be Old Kingdom colloquialisms. I have it from Rainer Hannig (2003), Ägyptisches Wörterbuch. I, Altes Reich und Erste Zwischenzeit , Mainz am Rhein : Ph. von Zabern, and (2006), Ägyptisches Wörterbuch. II, Mittleres Reich und Zweite Zwischenzeit Mainz am Rhein : Ph. von Zabern,that the word Km.t is not attested in Egyptian literature until the Middle Kingdom, unlike dSr.t, which is attested from the Old Kingdom already. This seems to be corroborated by Swiss Egyptologist Thomas SCHNEIDER's recent proposal (acclaimed by Gabor TAKACS) of dSr.t "desert" being a reflex, along with Semitic *SHr ", red, desert" (cf. Arabic SaHraa', "Sahara") of an earlier Afrasan root. In other words, the word for dSr.t would have existed in Egyptian language from time immemorial, and would have referred to the Desert and not to its "inhabitants". The km.t concept would have later been modeled on the dSr.t model and it is more likely that it would have refered to the Black soil in this perspective.
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Post by imhotep06 on Sept 5, 2010 19:44:26 GMT -5
Without a determinative km.t simply means black or complete/ultimate. Without a determinative dshr.t simply means red. If a determinative for people is used with either then it means a people of that colour. If a determinative for land is used with either then it means a land having that color. This is misleading and can only lead to a false conclusion. If that was the case, then the following would be incorrect: km “twinkling” – definitely has no association with “black.” I6-G17-Y1 km “credit, profit” – I6-Y1 kmyt “herd of cattle” – I6-J15-M17-M17-E1-Z2 kmt “large granite, jar, pot” – I6-X1-W24-Z1 There is no such thing as "black credit" or "black twinkling." Cattle can include goats, cows and sheep. Are you going to argue that ALL of the cows, goats and sheep were black? This reasoning has lead to many false conclusions and its root is in the method of intra-Egyptian etymolizing instead of looking for the term in related languages to bring clarity. Thus, we have linguistic fundamentalism and people stuck on the notion that every k-m root with the I6 glyph somehow magically means "black." The earliest attestations of the word have the N23 irrigated land determinative. This is clearly a sign of cultivation. What people don't realize is that they have the same word written in a different form, but given a different definition. Ancient Egyptian pkh3 = farmland The /3/ was and /l/. The k-m root in Egyptian often corresponds to ciLuba k-l/k-n root: Egyptian km "black" ciLuba/kiKongo kala "black" Egyptian kn/kni "be brave, be strong, capable, valiant, mighty" kh "difficult, strong, wild" [note: The CV phonetics might conceal a fugitive following nasal or resonant. Westermann (1927) frequently reconstructs such resonants at the end of his Proto-Western Sudanic roots (ka, kal "crab", ka, kan "side", kà, kàn, kàl “charcoal” )] ciLuba kale/kala "strong, strength, power, force, might, etc." nkama "ibid" mu-kale "brave" di-kima "brave" Egyptian khm "bring to an end" ciLuba le-kela "to quit" This same word pkh3 (p-k-l) is bu-kolà-vì = haphazardly grow, develop ...From root kale/kala/kola "grow, mature, ripen, rich/productive soil." This same root k-l is the same for "power, force" which relates to a "generative" energy, thus an association with "rich/productive soil." ku Bu-kola (b-k-l) (A) force (B) expressly (to express...in other words, to manifest) ci-kole-lu = how to educate. Remember the word educate means "to draw out" just like you would "draw out the fruit, plants" (the productivity) from the soil. Kole-la(A) act harshly against somebody, overwhelm, molest, the short shrift (B) êtretrop heavy to bear (C) be too difficult to (D) be borne by somebody (E) force, compel Kole-sha(A) welcome, wish to do well (B) increase(C) to harden, strengthen (D) strengthen (E) to support somebody, forces There is no logical reason to render kmt as "black land." It is clear as day: productive, rich, fertile land which when you examine related black African languages also doubles to mean "community, city, village or country." This is in contrast to the dshr.t which is "unproductive, sterile, land." At some point one has to critically examine the glyphs and language for one's self and not take the entries in dictionaries at face value.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 5, 2010 20:09:13 GMT -5
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Post by imhotep06 on Sept 5, 2010 22:58:53 GMT -5
A dictionary "doesn't speak for itself." It, like a computer program, only displays what has been programmed into it by a human being who is prone to mistakes, cultural bias, and lack of understanding. The argument from authority is elementary flaw of logic. For those that don't understand what an appeal to an authority means: Just because it's in a dictionary doesn't make it correct. Thus why we have methods to verify if the obscure word means what the dictionary claims. This prevents us from making errors based on monoliguistic etymolizing (searching for meaning exclusively in the language under examination). The root k-m/k-m-t is "polysemic" and cannot be reduced to a sole meaning of "black." The Egyptians were meticulous in their communication; giving us clear clues as to what they meant. The niw.t and N23 determinatives in no way can be reduced to color. By your logic the following would mean "hidden nurse" because there is a root m-n that means "hidden." mna.t = nurse, guardian Or this word would mean "angry alligator person" adw = agressor Or this word would mean "flamingo blood" dsr = blood As we can see, the root doesn't necessarily describe the determinative. The determinative is there to describe a characteristic of the root word. Thus why an alligator is used to help you envision "aggressive" behavior. And the flamingo (because of its red color) to help describe the character of blood. The same convention is used with the N23 and Niw.t determinatives. The former is to let you know it is irrigated, farm, productive land (the kind that allows for urbanization). The niw.t is there to inform you it is a populace. The people are the citizens of the nation, town, country. It doesn't get any plainer.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 6, 2010 10:39:28 GMT -5
For those interested in Pharaonic Egyptian language as Pharaonic Egyptian language I will present the entries from the biliteral phonogram glyph for KM (crocodile scales) and its uniliteral phonograms spelling k-m (basket with handle-owl)in the coming days.
They will all be words beginning with KM/k-m not words where the phonogram(s) are just internal or ending syllables of some word bearing no relation to the root KM/k-m.
As already noted the word's primary and secondary meanings are black and complete or ultimate. It takes a determinative to understand what the black thing is and when the determinative is the bound scroll then the meaning is an abstract one (complete or ultimate).
One must be careful not to attribute an out of context meaning to KM or k-m as a stand alone word without a determinative or with no idea where it stands within a phrase or passage of a text. It will be seen there's nothing remotely obscure about the meaning of KM/k-m in its various words.
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Post by olehint on Sept 6, 2010 10:42:22 GMT -5
For those interested in Pharaonic Egyptian language as Pharaonic Egyptian language I will present the entries from the biliteral phonogram glyph for KM (crocodile scales) and its uniliteral phonograms spelling k-m (basket with handle-owl)in the coming days. They will all be words beginning with KM/ k-m not words where the phonogram(s) are just internal or ending syllables of some word bearing no relation to the root KM/ k-m. As already noted the word's primary and secondary meanings are black and complete or ultimate. It takes a determinative to understand what the black thing is and when the determinative is the bound scroll then the meaning is an abstract one (complete or ultimate). One must be careful not to attribute an out of context meaning to KM or k-m as a stand alone word without a determinative or with no idea where it stands within a phrase or passage of a text. It will be seen there's nothing remotely obscure about the meaning of KM/ k-m in its various words. are there any example where KM is used with a word for skin?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 6, 2010 11:14:07 GMT -5
Who reduces KM/k-m to the sole meaning 'black' as you maintain? What is very misleading is your pretending that I left out the secondary meaning of the root; complete or ultimate. That is what applies to credit or profit ("in the black"), whereas debit or loss would be incomplete or lesser. Twinkle is not sparkle. For something to twinkle it must black out momentarily then reappear continuing that in oscillation. Granite comes in various colors. The AE evidently viewed black granite as the basic granite color, the black stone, hence the jar. Or it could be its large size, ultimate or a combination of the two. Alternatively it's quite possibly an unrelated and otherwise unused root but I doubt that. It is perfectly logical to render KM.t:t3 literally as black land when t3 is the determinative just as it's perfectly logical to render black community from KM.t:nwt when nwt is the determinative. That's the reason for determinatives, to clarify and add precision. Knowledgeably and correctly using a dictionary or lexicon prevents bungling and fabricating erroneous word meanings and usages. Without a determinative km.t simply means black or complete/ultimate. Without a determinative dshr.t simply means red. If a determinative for people is used with either then it means a people of that colour. If a determinative for land is used with either then it means a land having that color. This is misleading and can only lead to a false conclusion. If that was the case, then the following would be incorrect: km “twinkling” – definitely has no association with “black.” I6-G17-Y1 km “credit, profit” – I6-Y1 kmyt “herd of cattle” – I6-J15-M17-M17-E1-Z2 kmt “large granite, jar, pot” – I6-X1-W24-Z1 There is no such thing as "black credit" or "black twinkling." Cattle can include goats, cows and sheep. Are you going to argue that ALL of the cows, goats and sheep were black? This reasoning has lead to many false conclusions and its root is in the method of intra-Egyptian etymolizing instead of looking for the term in related languages to bring clarity. Thus, we have linguistic fundamentalism and people stuck on the notion that every k-m root with the I6 glyph somehow magically means "black." . . . . There is no logical reason to render kmt as "black land." It is clear as day: productive, rich, fertile land which when you examine related black African languages also doubles to mean "community, city, village or country." This is in contrast to the dshr.t which is "unproductive, sterile, land." At some point one has to critically examine the glyphs and language for one's self and not take the entries in dictionaries at face value.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 6, 2010 11:59:23 GMT -5
How about 'black face?' Is that good enough? But seriously, and in reference to humans, AEs weren't much concerned with skin colour. Only one occurence considering skin colour shows up in their literature ttbomk. Iinm it's in an Armana Age document where difference of skin colours of the various nations is the work of the Creator. For those interested in Pharaonic Egyptian language as Pharaonic Egyptian language I will present the entries from the biliteral phonogram glyph for KM (crocodile scales) and its uniliteral phonograms spelling k-m (basket with handle-owl)in the coming days. They will all be words beginning with KM/ k-m not words where the phonogram(s) are just internal or ending syllables of some word bearing no relation to the root KM/ k-m. As already noted the word's primary and secondary meanings are black and complete or ultimate. It takes a determinative to understand what the black thing is and when the determinative is the bound scroll then the meaning is an abstract one (complete or ultimate). One must be careful not to attribute an out of context meaning to KM or k-m as a stand alone word without a determinative or with no idea where it stands within a phrase or passage of a text. It will be seen there's nothing remotely obscure about the meaning of KM/ k-m in its various words. are there any example where KM is used with a word for skin?
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Post by imhotep06 on Sept 6, 2010 15:25:47 GMT -5
Who reduces KM/k-m to the sole meaning 'black' as you maintain? What is very misleading is your pretending that I left out the secondary meaning of the root; complete or ultimate. That is what applies to credit or profit ("in the black"), whereas debit or loss would be incomplete or lesser. Twinkle is not sparkle. For something to twinkle it must black out momentarily then reappear continuing that in oscillation. Granite comes in various colors. The AE evidently viewed black granite as the basic granite color, the black stone, hence the jar. Or it could be its large size, ultimate or a combination of the two. Alternatively it's quite possibly an unrelated and otherwise unused root but I doubt that. It is perfectly logical to render KM.t:t3 literally as black land when t3 is the determinative just as it's perfectly logical to render black community from KM.t:nwt when nwt is the determinative. That's the reason for determinatives, to clarify and add precision. Knowledgeably and correctly using a dictionary or lexicon prevents bungling and fabricating erroneous word meanings and usages. No, what's misleading is you not knowing the context and making up associations as you go. The concept of being in the "Black" has NOTHING to do with ancient practices, but is a "slang" or "jargon" term from early 20th century accounting practices where CREDITS were written in BLACK ink and DEBITS were recorded in RED ink. This practice cannot be traced to ancient Egypt. If this was to be traced back to Egypt, in any manner, then we would find terms with DSR meaning "debt, slavery, etc" since KM means "profit." My preliminary search for "debt" only brings up the word GB "debt, affliction, deficiency, harm" Words for slave came up as RMT HM "slave, attendant", MS HM "young slave, boy." To be thorough I looked up "to owe" and came up with aDAw and sA. There is no indication, based on these preliminary results, that DSR (the root for red in Egyptian) is associated with loss, debt or owing anyone. Secondly, you must have twinkle and FLICKER confused. Twinkle has nothing to do with going in and out; but refers to the small glare of light. A flickering light goes in and out and doesn't refer to a twinkle. When someone says, "a twinkle of an eye," they aren't talking about someone blinking. They are talking about the shine, glare off the pupil that resembles the small rays from stars. Thus the nursery rhyme "twinkle twinkle little star:" Again, a twinkle deals with a small light, glaring like a star, a spark. Your interpretation is far off and is beyond reaching. The granite association is plausible and I will give you that. I will put together a table comparing the terms in Greek, Hebrew, Egyptian, ciLuba and Yoruba so we can get a better understanding of this term and how it is used in African languages. Also I will give the alternative spellings of terms where applicable. I will have to do this in a pdf as the board's set-up is inadequate.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 6, 2010 18:59:35 GMT -5
I seriously advise you to address the issue and the methodology instead of making rash assumptions about me and what you think I know or do not know. [ No, what's misleading is you not knowing the context and making up associations as you go.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 6, 2010 19:05:35 GMT -5
I stand by twinkle as per dictionary definition. Of course you are free to reject standards and forge ahead with a personal meaning of your choice which I of course will not accept as the standard. twin·kle (twngkl) v. twin·kled, twin·kling, twin·kles v.intr. 1. To shine with slight, intermittent gleams, as distant lights or stars; flicker; glimmer. See Synonyms at flash. 2. To be bright or sparkling, as with merriment or delight: eyes that twinkled with joy. 3. To blink or wink the eyes. See Synonyms at blink. 4. To move about or to and fro rapidly and gracefully; flit. v.tr. To emit (light) in slight, intermittent gleams. n. 1. A slight, intermittent gleam of light; a sparkling flash; a glimmer. 2. A sparkle of merriment or delight in the eye. 3. A brief interval; a twinkling. 4. A rapid to-and-fro movement.
[Middle English twinklen, from Old English twinclian, frequentative of twincan, to blink.]
twinkler n. twinkly adj.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 13, 2010 14:15:24 GMT -5
Of course it's in "Egyptian texts themselves." How else would we otherwise know, or know about, AEL words if not for the "Egyptian texts themselves?" Again, in case it was missed when posted earlier, KM.t:mr (I6 - X1 - N36), is old as the 6th dynasty, obviously meaning black since it was apposed to DSHR.t:kh3st (G27 - X1 - N25), in an OK text title (Petrie, Dendereh, pl. II A) without any reliance on any Greco-Latin commentator's opinion. Usage of the black/red apposition is plentiful in AEL texts wherein we see black applies to "Egypt," and in a few passages it looks like both black and red are applicable to Egypt when they're used in tandem. In time the Delta went from black to red-black to predominantly red regarding its population. The Delta's land was nothing but black, being by far the widest extent of cultivateable land in the nation. I believe that a definite argument supporting the association of km.t "Egypt" with the black color can be found in Egyptian texts themselves. Dr nty km.t Dd r ir.t wsir. DfD.s pw.
"Because the Black one (Egypt) is also said of Osiris' eye, this is his pupil."
(Edfou, ed. E. Chassinat, T. 6, Le Caire, 1931, p.200, 86).
See also Plutarch's famous quote: "Moreover, one calls Egypt, because of the fact that its lands are all black like the black of the eye, Khemia." Isis and Osiris.
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Post by Dawn2Earth on Oct 3, 2010 20:52:28 GMT -5
Pasting Twinkle Twinkle Little Star? ... At the risk of slipping off into semantics, how about the definition of Twinkle from my American Heritage Dictionary: TWINKLE:
VERB: twin·kled, twin·kling, twin·kles VERB: intr.
- To shine with slight, intermittent gleams, as distant lights or stars; flicker; glimmer. See Synonyms at flash.
- To be bright or sparkling, as with merriment or delight: eyes that twinkled with joy.
- To blink or wink the eyes. See Synonyms at blink.
- To move about or to and fro rapidly and gracefully; flit.
VERB: tr.
1.) To emit (light) in slight, intermittent gleams. NOUN:
- A slight, intermittent gleam of light; a sparkling flash; a glimmer.
- A sparkle of merriment or delight in the eye.
- A brief interval; a twinkling.
- A rapid to-and-fro movement.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English twinklen, from Old English twinclian, frequentative of twincan, to blink
OTHER FORMS: twinkler(Noun), twinkly(Adjective)
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Post by imhotep06 on Oct 5, 2010 2:55:58 GMT -5
Sorry for the late response. I stand corrected on the general definition of twinkle. However, as can be seen by the definitions given on this thread, the focus isn't the dark but the DEGREE of LIGHT. You have actually helped to further prove my point which I will articulate in the following publication: I have been researching this question on the meaning and application of km(t) for 5 going on 6 years now and it appears it is time to organize this data. The use of /km/ has nothing to do with skin color and its application across the continent proves it. The black meaning is actually a tertiary meaning and I will discuss it in full in the publication. I should be done in another month or two and then I will be sending it to several scholars for review and critique prior to publication. I am looking at January or February for the release date. I will keep the forum updated. -Asar I stand by twinkle as per dictionary definition. Of course you are free to reject standards and forge ahead with a personal meaning of your choice which I of course will not accept as the standard. twin·kle (twngkl) v. twin·kled, twin·kling, twin·kles v.intr. 1. To shine with slight, intermittent gleams, as distant lights or stars; flicker; glimmer. See Synonyms at flash. 2. To be bright or sparkling, as with merriment or delight: eyes that twinkled with joy. 3. To blink or wink the eyes. See Synonyms at blink. 4. To move about or to and fro rapidly and gracefully; flit. v.tr. To emit (light) in slight, intermittent gleams. n. 1. A slight, intermittent gleam of light; a sparkling flash; a glimmer. 2. A sparkle of merriment or delight in the eye. 3. A brief interval; a twinkling. 4. A rapid to-and-fro movement.
[Middle English twinklen, from Old English twinclian, frequentative of twincan, to blink.]
twinkler n. twinkly adj.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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