~Influence of Egypt & Near East on Greece

[zarahan]

Seeking data on the influence of Egypt and the Near East on Greece.
Note: This is not a Black Athena/Martin Bernal/George James thread,
although if their writings can shed any DETAILED info on the SPECIFIC
areas below, it would be welcome.
Data is sought on any influences in the following fields:

-- Art
-- Architecture
-- Agriculture
-- Law
-- Industry
-- Metallurgy
-- Medicine
-- Science
-- Transport
-- Warfare
-- Religious practices

=======================================

Source 1 to kick things off. Thanks for detailed input in advance:

[quote:]
"No aspect of this question is more
discussed at present than the relation
between Greece and the near East,
especially Egypt. Some
nineteenth-century scholars wished to
downplay or deny any significant cultural
influence of the Near East on Greece, but
that was plainly not the ancient Greek
view of the question. Greek intellectuals
of the historical period proclaimed that
Greeks owed a great deal to the older
civilization of Egypt, in particular in
religion and art. Recent research agrees
with this ancient opinion. Greek
sculptors in the Archaic Age chiseled
their statutes according to a set of
proportions established by Egyptian
artists. Greek mythology, the stories that
the Greeks told themselves about their
deepest origins and their relations to the
gods, was infused with stories and motifs
of Near Eastern origin. The clearest
evidence of the influence of Egyptian
culture in Greek is the store if seminal
religious ideas that flowed from Egypt to
Greece: the geography of the
underworld, the weighing of the souls of
the dead in scales, the life-giving
properties of fire as commemorated in
the initiation ceremonies of the
international cult of the goddess Semeter
of Eleusis (a famous site in Athenian
territory), and much more.

These influences are not
surprising because archaeology reveals
that the population inhabiting Greece had
diplomatic and commercial contact with
the Near East as early as the middle of
the second millennium B.C... When the
Greeks learned from the peoples of the
Near East, they made what they learned
their own. This is how cultural identity is
forged, not by mindless imitation or
passive reception. (pg. 21)

"The civilizations of Mesopotamia and
Anatolia particularly overshadowed those
of Crete and Greece in the size of their
cities and the development of extensive
written legal codes. Egypt remained an
especially favored destination of
Mycenean voyagers throughout the late
Bronze Age because they valued the
exchange of goods and ideas with the
prosperous and complex civilization of
that land." (pg 30)

[endquote]
-- (From: Thomas R. Martin (2000)
Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to
Hellenistic Times. Yale University Press,
pg 21, 30)

[zarahan]

Second data batch - courtesy of ES Explorer

"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ægean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achæans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.

And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.

It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.

The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenæ, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.

Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenæ and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.

If, however, the builders of Mycenæ and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.

The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)

It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenæ.

Now, at Mycenæ, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenæ or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: Link


"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art


"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....

The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...

Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece

Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com

I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:

A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891. [/QB][/QUOTE]

[zarahan]

3rd data batch

The immigration of Greeks to Egypt for the purpose of their education, began as a result of the Persian invasion (525 B.C.), and continued until the Greeks gained possession of that land and access to the Royal Library, through the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexandria was converted into a Greek city, a centre of research and the capital of the newly created Greek empire, under the rule of Ptolemies. Egyptian culture survived and flourished, under the name and control of the Greeks, until the edicts of Theodosius in the 4th century A.D., and that of Justinian in the 6th century A.D., which closed the Mystery Temples and Schools, as elsewhere mentioned. (Ancient Egypt by John Kendrick Bk. II p. 55; Sandford's Mediterranean World p. 562; 570).

Concerning the fact that Egypt was the greatest education centre of the ancient world which was also visited by the Greeks, reference must again be made to Plato in the Timaeus who tells us that Greek aspirants to wisdom visited Egypt for initiation, and that the priests of Sais used to refer to them as children in the Mysteries.

As regards the visit of Greek students to Egypt for the purpose of their education, the following are mentioned simply to establish the fact that Egypt was regarded as the educational centre of the ancient world and that like the Jews, the Greeks also visited Egypt and received their education. (1) It is said that during the reign of Amasis, Thales who is said to have been born about 585 B.C., visited Egypt and was initiated by the Egyptian Priests into the Mystery System and science of the Egyptians. We are also told that during his residence

p. 43

in Egypt, he learnt astronomy, land surveying, mensuration, engineering and Egyptian Theology. (See Thales in Blackwell's source book of Philosophy; Zeller's Hist. of Phil.; Diogenes Laertius and Kendrick's Ancient Egypt).

(2) It is said that Pythagoras, a native of Samos, travelled frequently to Egypt for the purpose of his education. Like every aspirant, he had to secure the consent and favour of the Priests, and we are informed by Diogenes that a friendship existed between Polycrates of Samos and Amasis King of Egypt, that Polycrates gave Pythagoras letters of introduction to the King, who secured for him an introduction to the Priests; first to the Priest of Heliopolis, then to the Priest of Memphis, and lastly to the Priests of Thebes, to each of whom Pythagoras gave a silver goblet. (Herodotus Bk. III 124; Diogenes VIII 3; Pliny N. H., 36, 9; Antipho recorded by Porphyry).

We are also further informed through Herodotus, Jablonsk and Pliny, that after severe trials, including circumcision, had been imposed upon him by the Egyptian Priests, he was finally initiated into all their secrets. That he learnt the doctrine of metempsychosis; of which there was no trace before in the Greek religion; that his knowledge of medicine and strict system of dietetic rules, distinguished him as a product of Egypt, where medicine had attained its highest perfection; and that his attainments in geometry corresponded with the ascertained fact that Egypt was the birth place of that Science. In addition we have the statements of Plutarch, Demetrius and Antisthenes that Pythagoras founded the Science of Mathematics among the Greeks, and that he sacrificed to the Muses, when the Priests explained to him the properties of the right angled triangle. (Philarch de Repugn. Stoic 2 p. 1089; Demetrius; Antisthenes; Cicero de Natura Deorum III, 36). Pythagoras was also trained in music by the Egyptian priests. (Kendrick's Hist. of Ancient Egypt vol. I. p. 234).

(3) According to Diogenes Laertius and Herodotus, Democritus is said to have been born about 400 B.C. and to

p. 44

have been a native of Abdera in Miletus. We are also told by Demetrius in his treatise on "People of the Same Name", and by Antisthenes in his treatise on "Succession", that Democritus travelled to Egypt for the purpose of his education and received the instruction of the Priests. We also learn from Diogenes and Herodotus that he spent five years under the instruction of the Egyptian Priests and that after the completion of his education, he wrote a treatise on the sacred characters of Meroe.

In this respect we further learn from Origen, that circumcision was compulsory, and one of the necessary conditions of initiation to a knowledge of the hieroglyphics and sciences of the Egyptians, and it is obvious that Democritus, in order to obtain such knowledge, must have submitted also to that rite. Origen, who was a native of Egypt wrote as follows:—

"Apud Aegyptios nullus aut geometrica studebat, aut astronomiae secreta remabatur, nisi circumcisione suscepta." (No one among the Egyptians, either studied geometry, or investigated the secrets of Astronomy, unless circumcision had been undertaken).

(4) Concerning Plato's travels we are told by Hermodorus that at the age of 28 Plato visited Euclid at Megara in company with other pupils of Socrates; and that for the next ten years he visited Cyrene, Italy and finally Egypt, where he received instruction from the Egyptian Priests.

(5) With regards to Socrates and Aristotle and the majority of pre-Socratic philosophers, history seems to be silent on the question of their travelling to Egypt like the few other students here mentioned, for the purpose of their education. It is enough to say, that in this case the exceptions have proved the rule, that ail students, who had the means, went to Egypt to complete their education. The fact that history fails to supply a fuller account of this type of immigration, might be due to some or all of the following reasons:

(a) The immigration laws against the Greeks up to the time of King Amasis and the Persian Invasion, (b) Prose

p. 45

history was undeveloped among the Greeks during the period of their educational immigration to Egypt. (c) The Greek authorities persecuted and drove students of philosophy into hiding and consequently, (d) Students of the Mystery System concealed their movements.

Let us remember that Anaxagoras was indicted and imprisoned; that he escaped and fled to his home in Ionia, that Socrates was indicted, imprisoned and condemned to death; and that both Plato and Aristotle fled from Athens under great suspicion (William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 62; Plato's Phaedo; Zeller's Hist. of Phil. p. 84; 127; Roger's Hist. of Phil. p. 76; William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 126).
2. The Effects of the Conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great.

[zarahan]

Data batch 4

The author's
broad brush claim is questionable given other
research on Egyptian math:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_geometry

But historians agree that Thales visited Egypt
and borrowed and adapted freely. He was to develop and extend
what he learned but the key source was Egypt.


books.google.com/books?id=JZONR6frqcQC&pg=PA188&dq=Science+and+Technology+in+World+History,+Volume+1:&hl=en&ei=xE96TZPfCs2Q0QHzjpXQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA


"the most ancient archeological reserve in the world" and "that is how the Egyptians, whom we (Greeks) considered as the most ancient of the human race"

Or...

"Thus the mathematical sciences first (proton) originated in Egypt." Egypt is "the cradle of mathematics-that is, the country of origin for Greek mathematics."

Or...

"the mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Egypt only"

Or when a Greek figure, named Eudemus, in reaction to "Prodlus's commentaries on Euclid's Elements", notes:

"we shall say, following the general tradition, that the Egyptians were the first to have invented Geometry, (that) Thales, the first Greek to have been in Egypt, brought this theory thereof to Greece"


quote:
"..wherefore in the neighborhood of Egypt the
mathematical arts were first established; for
there leisure was spared unto the sacerdotal
caste."
--Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book II

[zarahan]

5th data batch:

Here is one conservative scholar on Greek
borrowing from Egypt and the Near east. HE lists
the adoption of writing as of crucial
development to Greek civ, and points out that the
Greeks did not invent their own alphabet but
copied/adappted that of the Phonecians, peoples of a Near
eastern and North African locale..

Another key influence, the introduction of iron
technology was again, not a Greek invention but
came from elsewhere.

The conservative also questions the
"Greek Miracle.."

[/QB][/QUOTE]

[zarahan]

data batch 6


elow is another conservative writer. He is a
staunch supporter of Greek philosophy, but
even he notes that the Greeks STYLE of philosophy
was different, not that they invented the subject.
He notes that peoples of the Near East and Egypt
already had their own philosophy. It is a matter
of style, and Greek preferences, and how
"philosophy" is defined. The conservative writer
openly admits this.
quote: "the perspective from which I discussed philosophy-
was very much a Greek one."

Incidentally the same author also notes that questioning the
degree to which Greek civ is derivative is something longstanding in some
of the "classics" literature. "Afrocentrists" did
not conjure up such questions out of thin air as
alleged by some.

[zarahan]

Data batch 7
Another conservative scholar had this to say:


knol.google.com/k/mainstream-academic-research/-/3q8x30897t2cs/0#

[anansi]

I know you would appreciate this as you already know this.

Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ
allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time
determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The
following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the
‘‘older’’ Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North
Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically
close Greeks, who do not belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum,
3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both
Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305,
*0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.
Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan
groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster
with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and
correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might
have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2069

[anansi]

According to old Egyptian belief, for instance, the living man consisted of a Body, a Soul, an Intelligence, a Name, a Shadow, and a Ka, which last I have elsewhere ventured to interpret as the Vital Principle.* He died, and each of these [Page 187] component parts fulfilled a different destiny. The Body was embalmed; the Ka dwelt with the mummy in the sepulchre; the Intelligence fled back to the immortal source of light and life; the Name and the Shadow awaited reunion with the Body in a state of final immortality; and the Soul, or "Ba," represented as a human-headed hawk, fluttered to and fro between this world and the next, occasionally visiting and comforting the mummy in its tomb. These visits of the Soul to the Body are frequently represented in Egyptian tomb-paintings, and in illustrations to the Book of the Dead; as, for example, in this vignette to the eighty-ninth chapter of that famous collection of prayers and invocations which has been called–not too correctly–the ancient Egyptian Bible.

THE MUMMY AND THE "BA".
From a vignette in "The Book of the Dead."


The mummy lies on the bier, attended by Anubis, the jackal-headed god of embalmment. The Soul, grasping in one hand a little sail, the emblem of breath, in the other hand the "ankh," or emblem of Life, hovers over the face of the corpse. Now this Soul, this "Ba," is a loving visitant to the dead man. It brings a breath of the sweet north wind, and the cheering hope of immortality in the sunny Fields of Aahlu. The Greeks, however, misapprehending its nature and functions, conceived of it as a malevolent emissary of the gods, and converted it into the Harpy. We have next the Greek conception of a Harpy, from a fragment of early Greek painted ware found at Daphnæ. But we have a still finer example in the illustration reproduced from the famous Harpy-Tomb in the British [Page 188] Museum. The Harpy is carrying off one of the daughters of Pandarus. She wears a fillet and pendant curls, and besides the claws of a bird, she has human arms like the Egyptian "Ba," wherewith to clasp her prey. The monument from which this group is copied was discovered by Sir Charles Fellows at Xanthus, in Lycia, and it dates from about five hundred and forty years before our era. It is more recent, that is to say, by about a century, than the painted potsherd of the preceding illustration.

GREEK HARPY.
From a fragment of painted ware. Tell Defenneh. 650 B.C.
Not less interesting than the self-evident connection between the Greek Harpy and the Egyptian "Ba " is the fact that this Harpy-tomb is the work of Lycian artists; for the Lycians, or "Leku," as we have already seen, had been brought into close contact with Egypt as early as the time of the Nineteenth Dynasty, having been among those very nations which allied themselves with the Hittites against Rameses II. and with the Libyans against Meneptah.

HARPY.
From the Harpy-Tomb of Xanthus
digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html

Statues comprised a set of very strict laws, which every artist had to follow, artists were ranked according to exact implementation of these laws. So it happened that in the course of three thousand years or more Egyptian art changed very little
- Heavy set figures, large heads, round plump faces, showing no facial expression, emotion or any suggestion of movement
- eyes gazing straight ahead, arms glued to their sides
- Seated statues had to have their hands on their knee
- Men statues had to be made using darker materials than women
- legs close together and feet parallel, sculptures of the Pharaohs were usually represented as either standing with the left foot advanced, or seated on a cubic block represented as a throne.
- Emphasis on symmetry.
www.aldokkan.com/art/statues.htm

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

I find a supposed connection between the ba and harpies a baseless farfetched proposition.
Edwards, writing in 1891, may have some valid examples of Greek decorative art borrowing
from Egypt but this surely is not one of them. Give Greeks some credit for independent invention.

[anansi]

May 23, 2011 13:15:06 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

I find a supposed connection between the ba and harpies a baseless farfetched proposition.
Edwards, writing in 1891, may have some valid examples of Greek decorative art borrowing
from Egypt but this surely is not one of them. Give Greeks some credit for independent invention.

I am not discounting independent invention just like the Old world African gods became synchronized with Catholicism I am thinking something similar may have appear in Greece for even the Kuros statues began to diverge after adaptation of Kemetic styles.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Keeping focused on ba and harpies, the two are so different in
concept, construction, and function that there is no way Greek
harpies are in any fashion borrowed from Egypt's ba. A simple
1:1 comparison derived from what we know about Egyptian ba
philosophy and descriptions straight from Greek harpy mythology
will easily confirm that.

There are too many solid borrowings to have them tainted by
something as flimsy as a depiction of a human headed bird in
both cultures means the one equals the other, especially when
considering the source of the idea.

May 23, 2011 19:24:58 GMT -5 anansi said:

May 23, 2011 13:15:06 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

I find a supposed connection between the ba and harpies a baseless farfetched proposition.
Edwards, writing in 1891, may have some valid examples of Greek decorative art borrowing
from Egypt but this surely is not one of them. Give Greeks some credit for independent invention.

I am not discounting independent invention just like the Old world African gods became synchronized with Catholicism I am thinking something similar may have appear in Greece for even the Kuros statues began to diverge after adaptation of Kemetic styles.

[anansi]

Jul 11, 2012 13:54:01 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

Wow, I have a loooot to say about it... Is the Hellenistic period of interest for this thread of yours as well?

Yes it is that's when alot of synchronization took place when a central African God Bes became Pan of the Mediterranean and beyond on another thread I posted this figure


Off course this is not strictly from the Greek era as it was This Voodoo Doll was from the Greco-Roman world (used in Egypt in the 2nd century A.D.
anthr.religion.nielsonpi.com/mod7.html

Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=arch&action=display&thread=1229#ixzz20ZN1Mrpy

[anansi]

Jul 27, 2012 6:12:10 GMT -5 arara sabalu said:

Thanks for the pic Anansi. What do you think is the cultural origin of such a figure?

My best guest would be the Kongo although it would be interesting to know how the above statue was used.

n this cosmology, nature is viewed as cyclical. Events of the past exist simultaneously within the present, the living and the dead sharing parallel realms despite neither being able to fully see or understand each other. Because Minkisi operate in a place between the living and the dead, they are said to have special knowledge. A Nkisi will know things beyond the owner or maker’s knowledge. Their activation is an act of communication between the worlds but is a translated dialogue because there are certain things and events in and of themselves that can only be known by the spirit itself. Likewise, the maker of a Nkisi and the diviner who will speak with Nkisi will each be aware of certain traits and powers the other does not understand and that it’s owner will not be aware of.
thehundredinthehands.com/keep-it-easy-minkisi-minkisi-and-nkondi-from-the-congo-basin/
Figures such as the above may have slightly different purpose despite looking similar at first glance.

[zarahan]

ROUNDUP FROM AN OLD ES THREAD


Modern Greeks would not have the IDENTICAL mix as ancient Greeks. Other studies do
not show identical results to HLA gene data. There are differences, but
the main idea is to show that there is some relatedness between Greeks
and Africans. WHy then aren't many running around talking about Greeks being "mixed"?
This double standard is a central point.
-------------------------------------------------


1-- Distribution of African Haplogroup E in Europe appears in several
Greek or southern European populations




2-- Certain Greek samples using HLA gene data cluster with Africans.
This pattern does not mean all Greeks are identical to Africans or "come from Africa."
The data is in:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127





Villena attracted controversy because various data on Greeks-Macedonians-
Africans seemed to genetically link Jews and Palestinians more closely than seemed
politic. This info was withdrawn for political reasons, and
offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups.
Some use this to claim that the Greek data above was
"withdrawn." False. It is alive and well and
appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127
Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing
to do with it, and are a separate dispute.

Bear in mind that while HLA has its limitations it is used by other
scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the
Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies)
for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic
groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited?
Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the
only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of
evidence linking the peoples.


3-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are
related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations. Note we
are talking Greeks and Africans.




4-- It is true that the data being used is highly
variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese
clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched
as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain
arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data
in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese
and south African blacks grouping together in
relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.




5-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African
traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits)
in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted
but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence
of "negroid" traits from early times:
quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2
was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as
a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly
complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis."
There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be
described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic
diagnosis of Negro crania... "
-- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.

"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F)
average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a
little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid
development of the incisor region.."
-- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971

"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other,
very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a
nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the
'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin."
--The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium:
proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997

"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have
been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today,
short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow
complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean
was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types,
some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed,
almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..."
-- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)


------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia-------
QUOTE:
"The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals.
It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's
"Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia."
-- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.




6-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits
are also found among the Greeks and various Africans
and some skeletal/cranial studies find African
elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example)
QUOTE:

"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."

-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564





7-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, Africans again having a wide range of features

QUOTES
"THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic...
It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed."
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".


"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138

L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."

"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '

"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171
-- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976

-------------------------------

8.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS


QUOTE:
"Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the
YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or
(III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East
and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup
found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes).
SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which
was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and
currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa..
It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may
recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."

--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA
Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.

---------------


9-- African DNA in Sardinia- sardinia dna


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Critique of critique of HLA studies. The "critique" made by some is
to proffer shaky strawmen made by alleged "Afrocentrists" that can then be
"refuted." BUt no credible observer claims that all Greeks are Africans.
We all know that Greeks are primarily European, just as Ethiopians are primarily African.
The only point at issue is that there is clearly documented gene mix and cultural flow
between Greece and Africa from ancient times. HLA studies are ONE link in
that documented chain of evidence. And if "mixed race" models are to be deployed
to describe African diversity, then their use is likewise justified in
describing EUropean diversity as "mixed race." Eurocentrics no longer get'
to play the standard hypocritical ONE-WAY labeling game.


VARIOUS OBJECTIONS

The minimization ploy- Cystic fibrosis
The cystic fibrosis finding is admitted but minimized with dubious
sleight of hand. Objectors and their supporters hold that Dörk et al. did find an
African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this
mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families.
WHat they conveniently leave out is that the Greek families were part of a
batch of 17 samples under detailed analysis. 3 out of 17 is approx 18%,
but they attempt to make it appear as if it is only 3 families out of all
of Greece where the cystic fibrosis mutation occurs. See Dork ref.
Dörk T, El-Harith EH, Stuhrmann M, et al. (August 1998).
"Evidence for a common ethnic origin of cystic fibrosis mutation 3120+1G-->A
in diverse populations". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63


The mysteriously missing African samples to "refute"
Objectors and their servitors then tout a 2000 study by Richards that
found "very little" African gene flow in Greece, but in
fact, Richards's study specifically EXCLUDED African samples.
Objectors and their supporters further proffer Maaspina 2000 as another
example, saying that the "only African" DNA trace in a Greek
sample was hg "A" at less than 1%. The only thing that they
conveniently forget to tell the reader is that the African
samples were mostly Arabized types from Egypt, not sub-Saharan
Africa, crucially East Africa/Ethiopia where an apples to apples
comparison could be done.


The non-sequitir "comparison"
The Objectors also cite a study by A. Petlichkovski on Macedonians
showing where "sub-Saharans" groups away from
the Macedonians thus allegedly "contradicting" Vilenna.
Again they conveniently leave out that the samples
of Petlichkovski were NOT from the same area of
Africa as Vilenna's Ethiopians, his main group
that clustered with Greeks. The sampling was not
an apples to apples comparison. Interestingly enough,
Petlichkovski's study groups Egyptians with other
African populations.



More "missing" Africans to "refute"
The Objectors continue their sleight of hand by proferring
another study by Weale 2001, but this study concerned Armenians
and had NO African samples. Other claims by the Objectors attempt
to use an obscure Siberian haplotype as some sort of "stand in" for
Africans but indeed the studies proffered for Greek-African comparisons
are notable for the ABSENCE or minor use of African samples.


The nugatory "North African" markers
Semino 2004 is used by assorted objectors to argue a Medit Supreme line,
alleging that the Greeks show little of the "North African marker" J-M267,
essentially setting up a strawman true type to "refute." But in fact Semino's
Greek samples showed significant amounts of E-M78, a haplotype itself originating
in East Africa per Semino. Objectors usually fail to mention this.
J-M267 is important to them however, because the Dork cystic fibrosis
study found a link with Saudi populations which have much J-M267. But what
Objectors and their supporters conveniently leave out is that other studies
of Saudis such as Amero 2008, found almost 14% of the Saudi samples
to have sub-Saharan DNA markers, confirming Dork's view of long-standing
Africa-Arabia gene flow. Hence it is not merely "North African" J-M267
that could cause a link with the Greek and Africans, but long-standing African
markers. The link shows up in people who are African or African influenced
like Saudis or African-Americans.


Curious charts
The Objectors also proffer a critique by JObling of Vilenna's sub-Saharan tracers,
but Jobling did not dispute the presence of such African alleles only
how they were used in creating a chart, since their origin was known
before the study. But such is standard procedure in other DNA studies
run by European race category proponents. Only this time, it showed
the Greek- African links rather than the usual "true type" segregation format.


The "three wise men" critique- claim a part is the whole -to "refute"
Objectors also refer to criticism of Vilenna by "three respected geneticists"
Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch. But the three men
over no detailed rebuttal of Vilenna's results, only "puzzlement" over
how Greeks link with Africans and how Japanese could be in the mix.
They express puzzlement on how: "Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians
and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the
Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans."

But the "three sages" misrepresent Vilenna with a touch of strawmen. Vilenna
is not referring to ALL Greeks but part of them, as seen in samples from
the Aegean and near Athens. The "all Greeks" charge is bogus, just as
the "identical Japanese" is similarly bogus. The three sages conveniently
fail to mention that HLA genes, in association with certain rheumatoid arthritis
MEDICAL conditions, can show similarity across several distant populations,
and thus accounting for why Japanese would share certain arthritis
conditions with South African San. Doesn't mean there was historic gene flow between
them- this would require some archaeological evidence as well- which Greeks
and Africans do have present. The similarity only shows that the gene mutations
involved in the particular rheumatoid arthritis conditions may hit both peoples
in a similar way.
( Rimoin and Emery 2006 Principles and practice of medical genetics).


HLA limitations

While HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA
affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the
Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies)
for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic
groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited?
Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the
only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of
evidence linking the peoples.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The above does not mean that there are no weaknesses in using HLA to
study populations, but neither does it mean that HLA cannot be used
as one of SEVERAL lines of confirmatory cross evidence on the issue
of links between Africa and Greece.


THE DOUBLE STANDARD:
Gene frequencies are sometimes touted as "racial" markers-
i.e. high frequencies of certain genes in "Eurasian" areas
enables the population to be labeled as "Eurasian."
But the same method is, curiously, too often, suddenly not applied when
African gene data is involved. Hence high frequencies
of certain genes in Africa do not earn them the "African"
label when there are overlaps into Europe and the
so-called "Middle East". Many who speak expansively
of "mixed races" in Africa suddenly maintain a mysterious
silence when the concept is extended into Europe.
Suddenly numerous sub-divisions, obfuscations and
"qualifications" enter the labeling picture - the
standard modus operandi of Euro-centric hypocrisy
and double standards.



If European racial constructs are consistently applied across the board,
then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids,
one-third African, two-thirds Asian.