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Post by zarahan on Sept 3, 2011 22:46:24 GMT -5
Excellent roundup with current data. The DNA info overall matches what we know from cranial and limb proportions. Your data is more current but I can add the item below to the mix: If you have it, can you post a chart of the PN2 transition, and how it links several groups across the continent. Keita had such a chart in his Cambridge videos.
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Post by zarahan on Sept 3, 2011 23:04:38 GMT -5
back migration theories dismissed - YAP insertion data
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Post by Dawn2Earth on Sept 19, 2011 9:42:54 GMT -5
Good chart. If the samples are representative of the then relative sizes of "Lower" and "Upper" Egypt (and both these can be ambiguous -- where from in either?), i.e., that 71% of Egyptians live in this presumably appropriate proxy area that was sampled (rural Lower Egypt), and the rest in Upper, then we can use this to add weight to some final total percentages. Just for the African lineages, I get that the total number, added weight to Lower Egypt taken into account, comes out to be 69.3%. What are the African lineages by the way? I remember what IV is, but what are V and XI? I don't recall. He says V's African but it appears to be common mainly in the Northern third (half?) of the country, which if you notice has more non-African lingeages and usually comes out less African (I thought) in total. Edit: Infact, V, which accounts for exactly 75% of Lower Egypt's Africanity, represents somewhere under a third (33%) of Upper Egypt's African lineages and halfway between a fifth / a fourth (22.5%) of "Lower Nubia's". This strikes me as odd, as if either another group altogether originally settled the region, or if (more likely IMO) it represents "African lineages" in that they derived from another population from the Mediterranean in which they are some sort of pre/early historic derived lineages. After all, there are considerable Arabs in North Sudan for which someone has said the actual is around 15% in lieu of the fact they themselves usually claim much higher numbers; all in all I'm aware that much less than are claimed as Arab are identical to Jordanians or Saudis in Sudan, so the 22% could be a good number, with a third or so of these probably being no different from Central Sudanese. Same thing re: Upper Egypt -- an Egyptian said during times Bedouins were purposely imported to Upper Egypt because it had a rebellious population (which, for a while there Nubia was Christian). So the 30-33% could be good there. But then again, this is all presuming that lineage to've been indicative of foreign ancestry. ...Thinking ... I doubt it is Berber. Is it Berber?
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Sept 19, 2011 9:51:06 GMT -5
At the bottom of the chart the continents are color coded. Africa is yellow, Europe is green and Near East blue. So the haplotypes in the chart are color coded by continent. Good chart. The samples are representative of the then relative sizes of "Lower" and "Upper" Egypt (and both these can be ambiguous -- where from in either?), i.e., that 71% of Egyptians live in this presumably appropriate proxy area that was sampled (rural Lower Egypt), and the rest in Upper, then we can use this to add weight to some final total percentages. Just for the African lineages, I get that the total number, added weight to Lower Egypt taken into account, comes out to be 69.3%. What are the African lineages by the way? I remember what IV is, but what are V and XI? I don't recall. He says V's African but it appears to be common mainly in the Northern third (half?) of the country, which if you notice has more non-African lingeages and usually comes out less African (I thought) in total.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Sept 19, 2011 9:57:40 GMT -5
I dont know about IV but I do know that V is North African specific. Some people call it Asiatic or Arabian, but its been found to be next to non existant in the Near East and Arabic. Its numbers drop off drastically outside of Africa, therefore it is not Asian in origin. So while Northern Egypt did receive a higher percentage of non African migration it was not enough to iradicate the native genetic foundation in the population. Only added to what was there already. Good chart. The samples are representative of the then relative sizes of "Lower" and "Upper" Egypt (and both these can be ambiguous -- where from in either?), i.e., that 71% of Egyptians live in this presumably appropriate proxy area that was sampled (rural Lower Egypt), and the rest in Upper, then we can use this to add weight to some final total percentages. Just for the African lineages, I get that the total number, added weight to Lower Egypt taken into account, comes out to be 69.3%. What are the African lineages by the way? I remember what IV is, but what are V and XI? I don't recall. He says V's African but it appears to be common mainly in the Northern third (half?) of the country, which if you notice has more non-African lingeages and usually comes out less African (I thought) in total.
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Post by Dawn2Earth on Sept 19, 2011 10:20:59 GMT -5
Ok, read the (Keita) study, while not negating its indication of Egyptianity (he even cautions calling it an "Arab" marker as it's like 60-something % in both Amazigh Berbers and Falasha Ethiopians, compared to just 17% in the West Levant and like 9% somewhere East), he says the following (bolded) about it: "The distribution and high prevalence of haplotype V (and less so of XI, Nile valley primarily), and Afroasiatic speakers in Africa correspond with the geography of the Horn-supra-Saharan arc. This is suggestive. The spread of the language phylum and genes may illustrate a case of kin-structured migration (Fix 1999), with founder-effect in some instances (e.g., high frequency of V in Moroccan Berbers). In the southern Nile valley V (and XI) might have been established with early Afroasiatic speakers, whose reconstructed vocabulary on available evidence suggests that they were hunters and intensive plant users, not food producers (see Ehret 1988, 2000, for a discussion of cultural reconstruction from language, and Ehret 1984).
It should be reiterated that using the same logic as applied to assess the Falasha, and the Arabic speakers of supra-Saharan Africa, it can be postulated that the ancestor of undifferentiated Semitic was adopted in the Near East by peoples having a prevalence of haplotypes VII and VIII. The levels and cline of V in the region are consistent with this hypothesis. Haplotype V in northern Egypt may also have had recurrent sources: in addition to a neolithic return of some having haplotype V, the Libyan kings of dynasties XXII-XXIV (~950-750 BC), based in the delta, might also have settled their countrymen. These would have been Amazigh (Berber)-speaking populations probably with a predominant frequency of haplotype V. It is difficult to judge the impact of these. " Same thing I just said above. Naa to re-check Lucotte's haplotypes and get tha final answer. Edit: I'm guessing it's M81 which is associated with Berbers, and guessing that XI's M78 which is considered to be Egypt's main founding lineage, though who knows, I'd bet the founding population was composed of some V and IV individuals. By the way, XI, I think he says is basically Nile oriented (I skimmed it). It's (if not necessarily M81) probably Afro-asiatic. Also, I'm not sure there's that much M81 in Sudan, the lineages is associated with Berber speakers like Amazighen and Tuareg, Haratin, Siwa and etcetera. I guess maybe the latter three groups may be close. You know, a good neighboring population to Egypt I'm really interested in which doesn't get much coverage is Chad, particularly in terms of things related to Afro-asiatic and other things found in Sudan.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 6, 2016 16:10:34 GMT -5
On E-M78's ancestors:
On E1b1b aka E3b:
"...Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by ***immigrant** farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001)." - Cruciani et al. 2004
E-M35 is found at its highest percentages in the borana of Kenya.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 17, 2016 10:43:23 GMT -5
"The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the Middle East into Europe is also represented in the NRY data, although suggesting a relatively localized area of impact. As mentioned before in relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with the M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant (Fig. 3g). The Levantine population of farmers that dispersed into Europe during and after the Neolithic carried these African Group III M35} M215 lineages, together with a cluster of Group VI lineages characterized by M172 and M201 mutations (Fig. 3h)."
- Underhill et al 2001
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 17, 2016 13:07:49 GMT -5
I would like to your already nice detail of major E in the Nile Valley. What we can take from the presence of E in the Nile Vally is as follows: Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001)--Frigi et al. 2010 We can see also in Keita (2005) the high presence of PN2 derivatives. Also supported by Cruciani et al. (2007) which states: " E-M78 belongs to clade E3b (E-M215). On the basis of robust phylogeographic considerations, an eastern African origin has been proposed for E-M215 (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2004), with a coalescence time of 22.4 ky (95% CI 20.9–23.9 ky; recalculated from Cruciani et al. [2004], see Subjects and Methods). A northeastern African origin for haplogroup E-M78 implies that E-M215 chromosomes were introduced in northeastern Africa from eastern Africa in the Upper Paleolithic, between 23.9 ky ago (the upper bound for E-M215 TMRCA in eastern Africa) and 17.3 ky ago (the lower bound for E-M78 TMRCA here estimated, fig. 1). In turn, the presence of E-M78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be only explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in northeastern Africa."--Cruciani et al. 2007 Nice.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 17, 2016 13:29:54 GMT -5
Ramses III was found to be E-M2!!
"Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1); using the Whit Athey's haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2)."
- Hawass et al 2012. Revisiing the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 19, 2016 12:06:19 GMT -5
Whoops, forgot to post this,
on E-M78:
The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile,28, 63 gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been. Correlations between human-occupation sites and radiocarbon-dated climatic fluctuations in the eastern Sahara and Nile Valley during the Holocene64 provide a framework for interpreting the main southeast European centric distribution of E-V13. A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards.64 Hg E-M78* representatives, although rare overall, still occur in Egypt, which is a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades.28 The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches.
- Battaglia et. al. 2008, Y-Chromosomal Evidence of the Cultural Diffusion of Agriculture in Southeast Europe
Meant to post it in the first post, right after the sentence, "What i wrote specifically above is based on Battaglia et. al. 2008 and the referenced Hassan et. al. 2008 study.".
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 19, 2016 12:38:46 GMT -5
On Haplogroup R-M173 & V88:
The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88. González M, Gomes V, López-Parra AM, Amorim A, Carracedo A, Sánchez-Diz P, Arroyo-Pardo E, Gusmão L.
Human Y chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b1-P25, although very common in Europe, are usually rare in Africa. However, recently published studies have reported high frequencies of this haplogroup in the central-western region of the African continent and proposed that this represents a 'back-to-Africa' migration during prehistoric times. To obtain a deeper insight into the history of these lineages, we characterised the paternal genetic background of a population in Equatorial Guinea, a Central-West African country located near the region in which the highest frequencies of the R1b1 haplogroup in Africa have been found to date. In our sample, the large majority (78.6%) of the sequences belong to subclades in haplogroup E, which are the most frequent in Bantu groups. However, the frequency of the R1b1 haplogroup in our sample (17.0%) was higher than that previously observed for the majority of the African continent. Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker, which was recently discovered in Africa. As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene.
[...]
In summary, altogether, our data are compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in Central-West Africa and a later migration (or migrations) across the Sahara to North Africa. Assuming this origin for V88, both the ‘Trans-Saharan' and ‘Inter-Saharan' hypotheses for the arrival of Chadic groups in the Lake Chad Basin are equally likely, as already described in other studies,8, 46 but this model is also compatible with the dispersion of V88 from Central-West to North Africa, contrary to what was proposed by Cruciani et al.
- Gonzalez et al 2012
R-V88 is R-M173.
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 20, 2016 11:22:47 GMT -5
On E1b1b again:
"The paragroup E-M35* has been observed at high frequencies in both eastern (10.5%) and southern (15.2%) Africa, with rare occurrences in northern Africa and Europe (0.4% and 0.5%, respectively)."
- Cruciani et al 2004
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 26, 2016 9:41:05 GMT -5
Sub-Saharan DNA B-M60 in Sudan may indicate a link with ancient Egypt:
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation"
- Hassan et al 2008
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Post by clouddesignc7 on Sept 28, 2016 11:10:07 GMT -5
On Egyptian E1b1a (M2) aka Lucotte's "haplogroup 4": Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. - Keita, 2005. E-M2 found at 13.9 percent in a sample size of 274 Egyptians and was found at 7.7 percent in a sample size of 52 Egyptians. So E-M2 was found at 13.9 and 7.7 percent.www.academia.edu/10933902/Genetics_Egypt_and_History_Interpreting_Geographical_Patterns_of_Y_Chromosomal_VariationKeiata, Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome variation *** So I could write: Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies.
[...]
Haplotype IV [was found at] 7.7 percent [in] Egypt [...]
Haplotype IV [was found at] 13.9 percent [in] EgyptSo if we average out those numbers, 13.9 percent of 274 and 7.7 percent of 52, we get 12.88 percent or 12.9 percent (of 326 Egyptians).
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