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Post by anansi on Dec 24, 2017 11:59:19 GMT -5
Africurious said:{I’ve spoken with many Latinos that’s how I know they deny their African heritage as general rule. I’ve been to Latin countries with significant African descendants and African descendants there are looked down upon and the more African features you have the more you’re discriminated against even by people who also are Afro-Latinos. Of course it depends on who you talk with but that doesn’t change that they generally down play their africanness. And how do african Americans “enjoy” their ancestors’ being “stolen and shipped”? Get outta here with the strawman and irrelevant argument.} What you said is true, but this is true for black communities the world over where black or African descendant folks exist, the difference is only a matter of degree, AAs probably started this conversation among themselves, during the 60ts , what made such self affirmation songs like Say it Loud I'm Black and proud, the Jamaicans and the Caribbean a lil bit earlier with Marcus Garvey and following him, the Rastafarians who challenged the concept of cultural Britishness and whiteness, in favor of Africaness, this conversation is just of late taking place among Latin based communities, BTW part of my knowledge gathering centers is the Author A Shomburg research center. [Arturo Alfonso Schomburg, also Arthur Schomburg (January 24, 1874 – June 8, 1938), was a historian, writer, and activist. Schomburg was a Puerto Rican of African and German descent who moved to the United States and researched and raised awareness of the great contributions that Afro-Latin Americans and Afro-Americans have made to society. He was an important intellectual figure in the Harlem Renaissance. Over the years, he collected literature, art, slave narratives, and other materials of African history, which was purchased to become the basis of the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, named in his honor, at the New York Public Library (NYPL) ] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Alfonso_SchomburgSo yes this conversation is still on going in AA and Anglo speaking Caribbean communities although we have a little head start,note the abject stupidity ignorance and disinformation promoted largely by AA young and not so young ppl on YouTube or the street corners.
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Post by anansi on Dec 24, 2017 12:12:16 GMT -5
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Post by africurious on Dec 24, 2017 14:18:42 GMT -5
Anansi, I agree with you that the shame is a matter of degrees and it’s present in all the diaspora communities. However, that degree is significant. Even before the 60s, AA’s and those in the English Caribbean largely didn’t deny their blackness or descent from Africans even if said people were ashamed of such heritage. In Latin America people will outright deny they are descended from Africans and even claim descent from native Americans to cover up their descent from Africans. For example, this was official govt policy in Dominican Republic under the dictator Trujillo who was himself an Afro-Latino. Many Afro-Latinos in the US make sure to distance themselves from AAs and will describe themselves as “dark-skinned Latinos” even though in their home countries they answer to “negro”, “moreno”, etc. I call out Afro-descended people who are ashamed of themselves all the time. It just so happens that the topic of this thread was Afro-Latinos.
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Post by zarahan on Dec 26, 2017 13:43:13 GMT -5
It is well documented that many Latin Americans deny or downplay their African heritage, Its just another variant of white supremacy or yearning after whiteness for some. Rather than the snarling stark black-white dichotomy of the US, the Latin American variant has a more subtle, "colored" race hierarchy, with many more intermediate shadings and so on, but the racial bottom line is the same. On top White -you all right, but if you black, get back.
That said, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, until quite recently in the US, the softer more flexible Latin variant would have been more livable for most US blacks, although it should also be noted that the richest, most educated, most powerful blacks as a group are in the US, after the Civ Rights era, not South America.. Ultimately though, the same bottom line.
Given growing Hispanic populations, and rising intermarriages, it is quite possible that the US in 100 years or so, may be basically in the "South American" "mestizoiation/mulattoization" situation, and "whiteness" may have expanded to incorporate to a greater extent, light skinned Hispanics, as it has almost done now with Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Colombians, Brazilians etc. But what about the ultimate bottom line?
This is why it is so laughable to hear assorted white racialists complain about "genetic annihilation"? Really? WHat you complaining about? Even if whites become a minority, the "mestizo/mulatto" formula still puts white on top, and white advantage consolidated over centuries is in very good shape. All the decades for example where black folk were not able to get or buy decent housing enabled white people to build up massive amounts of assets- home ownership the major source of wealth. Right now the statistics show AVERAGE white household wealth to be approx. THIRTEEN TIMES THAT OF BLACKS. And with all those years of shunting black folk into inferior schools- white income and opportunity is comfortable in place. Average white household income is almost twice that of blacks.
And white people always have the option of increasing their numbers via having more babies rather than aborting them at current rates, or skipping procreation via going the "gay" or "transgender" route and so on.. Nobody is standing in the way of white people. Black "gangstas" aren't roaming the suburbs preventing white people from reproducing. In fact black women are busy aborting black kids at the highest rate among US ethnic groups.
Given these white advantages locked in for a long, long time, it could be said- what you whining about?
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Post by africurious on Dec 27, 2017 4:06:10 GMT -5
I agree with you that whites will continue to dominate the US regardless if they are minorities cuz they will keep economic power (tho this may change over an even longer time). That’s how it operates in Latin countries.
Yes American blacks are the richest and most educated but that’s cuz they are natives of a rich country. They’re way at the bottom of the economic ladder in the US tho (maybe only native Americans are lower). Some blacks living in poorer countries who have less pay nominally are better off economically cuz the cost of living in their country is lower than the US. The notion of rich black America seems a bit hollow. The whites made sure of that. It’s also interesting that in Latin America racial barriers are more flexible as you rightly point out but the non-whites have been so effectively limited from the socio-economic elite. In fact I think it might be a bit better in America for upward mobility among blacks than in Latin Am.
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Post by zarahan on Dec 27, 2017 10:59:10 GMT -5
It’s also interesting that in Latin America racial barriers are more flexible as you rightly point out but the non-whites have been so effectively limited from the socio-economic elite. In fact I think it might be a bit better in America for upward mobility among blacks than in Latin Am. Good point. I always wonder how come in the alleged "racial paradise" of Brazil that you see so few visibly black folk (I am not talking light skinned "red" types) in better skilled jobs, or in the better positions with high media or customer service visibility. The website below- Black WOmen of Brazil has been a real eye-opener for me as to the subtle and not so subtle discrimination going on. At lest in the US, some civil rights laws forced open "white only" jobs. Nothing comparable that I know of in 'paradises' to the south. But I may be wrong. Any info on this? blackwomenofbrazil.co/
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Post by zarahan on Dec 27, 2017 11:00:39 GMT -5
I also wonder if the Latin "blended" "color-wheel" race hierarchy is a strategy to CONCEAL or obfuscate such discrimination. In the US- it was all in the open at one time- with bold "white only"- no negroes need apply" policies up front. BUt according to a number of writers such as Bonilla-Silva (Racism without Racists) America has become more cunning and skilled now at concealing and fogging the prejudice and bias on the ground. If this is the case then, America may me moving towards its own Latinized "color wheel" version, with many denying or disavowing any "racial" intent or angle.. Just wondering.. www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/racism-without-racists/245361/
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Post by zarahan on Dec 27, 2017 11:04:23 GMT -5
The above being said, what are some SPECIFIC solutions to move black folk forward given these obstacles? No general rant but Specific lists anyone?
1. 2. 3.
etc?
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Post by anansi on Dec 27, 2017 12:37:06 GMT -5
I also wonder if the Latin "blended" "color-wheel" race hierarchy is a strategy to CONCEAL or obfuscate such discrimination. In the US- it was all in the open at one time- with bold "white only"- no negroes need apply" policies up front. BUt according to a number of writers such as Bonilla-Silva (Racism without Racists) America has become more cunning and skilled now at concealing and fogging the prejudice and bias on the ground. If this is the case then, America may me moving towards its own Latinized "color wheel" version, with many denying or disavowing any "racial" intent or angle.. Just wondering.. www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/racism-without-racists/245361/Don't wonder that's exactly what it is, Brazil is especially good at that, however like I said earlier they have began pushing back, it's a conversation and activism long over due, the same is true in places like Yemen, Sudan.. Aka "land of the Blacks" forget about Egypt and it's colorism, lite skinned north Africans only come together with their darker counter parts only when they are getting their asses kicked in places like France.. Global white supremacy and the mental madness runs deep. But I'm an optimist I believe in the capacity for ppl to get woke!! It may take some time tho.
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Post by africurious on Dec 27, 2017 18:03:55 GMT -5
It’s also interesting that in Latin America racial barriers are more flexible as you rightly point out but the non-whites have been so effectively limited from the socio-economic elite. In fact I think it might be a bit better in America for upward mobility among blacks than in Latin Am. Good point. I always wonder how come in the alleged "racial paradise" of Brazil that you see so few visibly black folk (I am not talking light skinned "red" types) in better skilled jobs, or in the better positions with high media or customer service visibility. The website below- Black WOmen of Brazil has been a real eye-opener for me as to the subtle and not so subtle discrimination going on. At lest in the US, some civil rights laws forced open "white only" jobs. Nothing comparable that I know of in 'paradises' to the south. But I may be wrong. Any info on this? blackwomenofbrazil.co/ Yea it’s crazy in them racial “paradises” man. That Afro-Brazilian site is good. I actually found out about it from a Facebook post by a white Brazilian acquaintance, ironically, lol. He’s kinda woke. Yea you’re largely right. There was an attempt by a Mr. Nascimiento in Brazil to start a movement based on the black movement in the US but it never got huge. Though the movement still exists and they’ve gained some affirmative action type policies put in place for govt schools and jobs. Funny thing is that white/near white Brazilians have taken advantage of this policy. For example, all the Brazilians who were admitted to one med school under the affirmative action policy turned out to be white/near white, lol: www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2017/09/1921534-whites-manipulate-racial-quotas-in-order-to-get-into-medical-school.shtmlwww.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01425692.2014.973015?src=recsys&journalCode=cbse20In general there aren’t any laws or official racist policies as there were in the US. Notably blacks were barred from colleges and even certain public parks by the Cuban govt but those were overturned after communist revolution. Maybe the lack of official racism has held back a strong movement from forming. Harder to rally against racism at individual level.
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Post by africurious on Dec 27, 2017 18:16:41 GMT -5
I also wonder if the Latin "blended" "color-wheel" race hierarchy is a strategy to CONCEAL or obfuscate such discrimination. In the US- it was all in the open at one time- with bold "white only"- no negroes need apply" policies up front. BUt according to a number of writers such as Bonilla-Silva (Racism without Racists) America has become more cunning and skilled now at concealing and fogging the prejudice and bias on the ground. If this is the case then, America may me moving towards its own Latinized "color wheel" version, with many denying or disavowing any "racial" intent or angle.. Just wondering.. www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/racism-without-racists/245361/Don't wonder that's exactly what it is, Brazil is especially good at that, however like I said earlier they have began pushing back, it's a conversation and activism long over due, the same is true in places like Yemen, Sudan.. Aka "land of the Blacks" forget about Egypt and it's colorism, lite skinned north Africans only come together with their darker counter parts only when they are getting their asses kicked in places like France.. Global white supremacy and the mental madness runs deep. But I'm an optimist I believe in the capacity for ppl to get woke!! It may take some time tho. Glad there’re some optimists like you cuz ish looks a bit bleak and I want to believe it ain’t as bad as I think. Agree with you that there’s no wondering it’s happening and has been happening for decades. Remember when some fools (of all colors) tried to tell everyone that we were in a post-racial America just cuz Obama was elected? Lol. I think one thing that America has to it’s advantage vs Latam is that it’s common for blacks to be aware of their blackness and discuss discrimination. This creates opportunity for them to fight it. In latam it’s more common for Afros to accept their inferiority and try to whiten themselves through procreating with whites/near whites so each generation is closer to the white ideal. So they’ve accepted the rules of the game. In America there’s an attempt to break it.
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Post by africurious on Feb 25, 2018 15:06:38 GMT -5
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Post by kel on Feb 25, 2018 19:38:01 GMT -5
It is a fact that general Latin culture is either hostile or ambivalent to its African roots or influences.
Certain aspects are embraced such as African music, culinary, and religious influences .... but that is about it.
In just about all Latin societies the Blacks are economically and politically marginalized .... even in places where they are the majority or significant portion of the societies such as Brazil, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico CUBA.
If you cant play soccer, baseball, dance or sing, you are in for a tough time.
......where the Latins differ from the Anglos is that there is more sexual and social interaction amongst the races and there is a generally higher level of interpesrsonal civility. Class issues also come into play.......but none of these difference changes the essential racist anti Black nature of these societies....
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