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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 8, 2010 8:56:45 GMT -5
Nomads is typically diverse. Sometimes the Tuareg called themselves "red skinned". The Tuareg originate in Libya and then went into Algeria and further south into Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso and Nigeria. They went to war with Songhay, Kanuri, Hausa, Djerma people and took slaves called "Ikalan" There were also slave markets run in some of those tribes. Some of the Tuareg married these southern peoples and their children became free and integrated into the Tuareg hierarchical system. So being Nomads, the diversity you see in Mali Tuareg reflects all the different ares they went into. That maybe so, but the bigger issue here is that these people are one culture and that is the way they perceive themselves. Regardless of why they exhibit such diversity, the fact is that they are a diverse people but that diversity is not indicative of them being separate races. There is a range within their society and even though you may find individuals at opposite ends of that spectrum, it does not rule out the fact that they are related in ways that go deeper than their superficial characteristics. |
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Post by egyptianplanet on Jul 8, 2010 11:00:33 GMT -5
Anyone ever seen the Trauregs houses made of salt? It's pretty cool. It was said they were always a nomadic people that couldn't really build a civilization due to the desert climate but were experts of the desert. They used to harvest salt to trade with the southern empires of modern day Ghana, Nigeria and Niger and travel north to trade with other Berber tribes. (Don't forget Trauregs are also Berbers).
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Post by olehint on Jul 8, 2010 14:38:38 GMT -5
Nomads is typically diverse. Sometimes the Tuareg called themselves "red skinned". The Tuareg originate in Libya and then went into Algeria and further south into Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso and Nigeria. They went to war with Songhay, Kanuri, Hausa, Djerma people and took slaves called "Ikalan" There were also slave markets run in some of those tribes. Some of the Tuareg married these southern peoples and their children became free and integrated into the Tuareg hierarchical system. So being Nomads, the diversity you see in Mali Tuareg reflects all the different ares they went into. That maybe so, but the bigger issue here is that these people are one culture and that is the way they perceive themselves. Regardless of why they exhibit such diversity, the fact is that they are a diverse people but that diversity is not indicative of them being separate races. There is a range within their society and even though you may find individuals at opposite ends of that spectrum, it does not rule out the fact that they are related in ways that go deeper than their superficial characteristics. Their culture is part of Islamic culture |
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Post by egyptianplanet on Jul 8, 2010 14:45:16 GMT -5
That maybe so, but the bigger issue here is that these people are one culture and that is the way they perceive themselves. Regardless of why they exhibit such diversity, the fact is that they are a diverse people but that diversity is not indicative of them being separate races. There is a range within their society and even though you may find individuals at opposite ends of that spectrum, it does not rule out the fact that they are related in ways that go deeper than their superficial characteristics. Their culture is part of Islamic culture Tuaregs pre-date Islam. |
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Post by olehint on Jul 8, 2010 20:16:24 GMT -5
Their culture is part of Islamic culture Tuaregs pre-date Islam. Arabs pre-date Islam |
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Post by anansi on Jul 8, 2010 21:59:41 GMT -5
Doctorisscientia you have a point about distinguishing what is called Islamic culture from being a Muslim..it is so easy to lump the two because our media always do.
One would not say Brazil and England has the same culture despite both being over overwhelmingly Christians..what would be Christian culture then ??
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 9, 2010 15:10:52 GMT -5
That maybe so, but the bigger issue here is that these people are one culture and that is the way they perceive themselves. Regardless of why they exhibit such diversity, the fact is that they are a diverse people but that diversity is not indicative of them being separate races. There is a range within their society and even though you may find individuals at opposite ends of that spectrum, it does not rule out the fact that they are related in ways that go deeper than their superficial characteristics. Their culture is part of Islamic culture Their is no such thing as "Islamic" culture. There is such a thing as the Islamic World and yes, today the Tuaregs are a part of that , but understand that this in no way indicates one overreaching unified culture. Even the way Islam is practiced can differ significantly from one society to the other, they are not interchangable and have to be understood within the context of their own societies, cuktures and geographic locations. |
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Post by olehint on Jul 9, 2010 15:41:49 GMT -5
Their culture is part of Islamic culture Their is no such thing as "Islamic" culture. There is such a thing as the Islamic World and yes, today the Tuaregs are a part of that , but understand that this in no way indicates one overreaching unified culture. Even the way Islam is practiced can differ significantly from one society to the other, they are not interchangable and have to be understood within the context of their own societies, cuktures and geographic locations. Obviously there is such thing as Islamic culture. It gets mixed with local cultures. These variations are unified by belief in the Qu'ran. doctorisscientia, you speak of Muslim and Islamic as if they were two different things. They are they same, people who believe in the Qu'ran |
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Post by azrur on Oct 19, 2013 20:38:33 GMT -5
^^ Yes, but when I see them like this sharing one culture, one religion, and one identity, I can't help but notice that they don't see themselves as Black or "Tawny", negro or caucasian, I think these are American social definitions projected on to a group that see themselves as ONE PEOPLE, despite the physical variation that occurs within the tribe. haratin is what black berber speaker are call beidane is what light skin berber speak are call you are correct though that they are unify by one culture and language identity however not religion as some berber do not follow islam and it do not make them any less of berber the tuareg are of caste system i do not know if they have similar term but they are of caste systems which is of bloodlines not of race like the one in the aryans made |
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Post by azrur on Oct 20, 2013 0:56:57 GMT -5
 tuareg in libya  see how very similarity to the people in the tassili paintings |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Oct 20, 2013 1:56:57 GMT -5
^^ Yes, but when I see them like this sharing one culture, one religion, and one identity, I can't help but notice that they don't see themselves as Black or "Tawny", negro or caucasian, I think these are American social definitions projected on to a group that see themselves as ONE PEOPLE, despite the physical variation that occurs within the tribe. haratin is what black berber speaker are call beidane is what light skin berber speak are call you are correct though that they are unify by one culture and language identity however not religion as some berber do not follow islam and it do not make them any less of berber the tuareg are of caste system i do not know if they have similar term but they are of caste systems which is of bloodlines not of race like the one in the aryans made Not all black Tuaregs are Haratin. The Haratin are a very specific group. If you look at Tuaregs on a whole from Libya to Mali you will see the skin tones range from light to very dark. hey don't have a concept of race like in the West because even a very dark tuareg can belong to a beidan family. Things aren't simple and cut and dry. It's much more complex. |
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Post by azrur on Oct 20, 2013 2:01:46 GMT -5
haratin is what black berber speaker are call beidane is what light skin berber speak are call you are correct though that they are unify by one culture and language identity however not religion as some berber do not follow islam and it do not make them any less of berber the tuareg are of caste system i do not know if they have similar term but they are of caste systems which is of bloodlines not of race like the one in the aryans made Not all black Tuaregs are Haratin. The Haratin are a very specific group. If you look at Tuaregs on a whole from Libya to Mali you will see the skin tones range from light to very dark. hey don't have a concept of race like in the West because even a very dark tuareg can belong to a beidan family. Things aren't simple and cut and dry. It's much more complex. tuareg do not call black tuareg haratin i was speaking of the black berber speakers in algeria and morocco who live in the south and places like mauritania and them living with the saharwi |
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Post by azrur on Oct 20, 2013 2:04:41 GMT -5
Not all black Tuaregs are Haratin. The Haratin are a very specific group. If you look at Tuaregs on a whole from Libya to Mali you will see the skin tones range from light to very dark. hey don't have a concept of race like in the West because even a very dark tuareg can belong to a beidan family. Things aren't simple and cut and dry. It's much more complex. tuareg do not call black tuareg haratin i was speaking of the black berber speakers in algeria and morocco who live in the south and places like mauritania and them living with the saharwi i have seen berbers call black tuareg haratin though i think the berbers living far north and those that live in different country like france have some misunderstanding of tuareg |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Oct 20, 2013 12:55:28 GMT -5
tuareg do not call black tuareg haratin i was speaking of the black berber speakers in algeria and morocco who live in the south and places like mauritania and them living with the saharwi i have seen berbers call black tuareg haratin though i think the berbers living far north and those that live in different country like france have some misunderstanding of tuareg The Haratin are a specific group of people. They from what I gather, are a sedantsry people who live in the oasis and work for the Tuaregs. They are a very specific group of people. The Tuaregs themselves have a variety of skin colors and many of them are very dark. Not all of them are Haratin. The Tuaregs in the south of Lybia are very dark. They are not Haratin. It would be like saying every black person is an Afro American. It's a bit of an exaggeration. I'll post this video again. As you can see in the beginning, the men parading are very dark, but they are very high status. Look at their clothing, jewelry, the fact that they have swords. These are not servants, these are warriors. Now if I look carefully, I do see people in this video who are most likely lower status, but to say that all the dark skinned people are tow status Haratin is not true. When I was in collage, I use to hang out in the Arab club, mostly Palestinians. One of the new members was from Mauritania. The son of a diplomat. He was just as dark as any black person, but didn't consider himself black. He was always telling me, "you black people need to do this", "you black people need to do that". Now mind you, my skin is 6 shades lighter than his. The blackest thing about me was that I had an afro and his hair was wavey. One day I had to pull his tail to the fact that HE was black himself. "what do you mean"? I took out a piece of chocolate and held it next to his skin and said "Mohamed, what's the difference between you and this piece of chocolate"? "There ain't no damn difference, Mohamed, you're black! My skin is yellow and you're calling me black? If I can have yellow skin and be black , what the hell does that make you, born and raised in AFRICA and the color of a damn Hershy bar?!!" Just 'cause you speak Arabic don't mean shit! You black, so stop telling me what black people need to do!" Funny thing, all the Arabs in the club called him black. He was always flirting with this Lebanese chich. Her sister asked her, would you marry him, she said no because my kids would be black. Now I will say this, I agree with you that there is a lot of cultural ignorance in America and Europe about North Africa, and Africa in general and the Middle East. They haven't got a clue as to who belongs to what ethnic group and culture and who doesn't. But I will also say this, there is also a great deal of ignorance on the part of most North Africans towards greater Africa as a whole. A great deal of ignorance about world history and politics. A great deal of ignorance about the politics behind the creation of racial groups and categories. And a gross ignorance as to how they are perceieved by the outside world. And for most North Africans living in the USA, they are the most ignorant of all. They tend to throw words around that they don't understand, in a country whose hstory and customs they know absolutely nothing about. They take for granted the rights and priveledges they enjoy. Rights and priviledges not available to them in their own countries all the while looking down their noses at the very people, without whose centuries of hard work, struggle and spilt blood, they wouldn't have even been allowed to come to this country, much less obtain residency and citizenship. So if I seem to have a bug up my ass at times, pardon me, but YES I DO! I'm not singeing you out persay, but I'm educating you in the hopes that you are open to being educated. It's not out of hatred, although i do come across a bit harsh and sarcastic at times.... Okay, very often... I am a person, who is indebted to the struggles of Afro Ameicans. I am not Afro American, nor am i black skinned, nor do I consider myself black, (that's a whole other topic). But I know that when people see me, they see a nigger. They don't care how lite my skin is, where I'm from or any of that. I know that without the work of African Americans I would not have the right of citizenship by birth. I know that I would not be able to go anywhere in this country and be served at a restaurant of my choosing, nor stay at any hotel. And this is what you, mister Algeria and the racist Coptic Nazis who like to come in here calling people savagees) needs to understand, neither would you! Regardless of what this government classifies you as on paper, the fact of the matter is that it is nothing more than divide and conquer politics. It's bulshit! Mexican Americans in this country wrre classified as white by this government ad were still held to the same segragation laws as the blackest Afro Americans. And in the 1930, this country rounded up thousands of American born Mexicans, many of them who had been living in California and Texas for centuries before America took control of those lands and deported them to Mexico. Just in the same way that not too long ago France deprted thousands of Algerians born and raised in France, (many of them who didn't even speak Arabic), to Algeria, whether or not they had any family there or not! So understand what this race business is really all about. It's politics, its greed, its human exploitation and it has nothing to do with skin color, but who is voulnerable to xploitation. Before you go labeling all dark skinned people Haratin, realize the people telling you that bullshit most likely have an agenda. And while you're at it, you need to remember your own history and the fact that when the Romans and Arabs came to North Africa they frequently raided Bereber villages for slaves, regardless of their color. In fact there was a time when the most sought after slaves in Arabia were berber women who were captured, converted to Islam and taught to speak Arabic and the Arab oppression of Berbers continues to this day! Okay, I had my baby now. Anyone else care to chime in? |
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Post by azrur on Oct 20, 2013 14:58:51 GMT -5
i have seen berbers call black tuareg haratin though i think the berbers living far north and those that live in different country like france have some misunderstanding of tuareg The Haratin are a specific group of people. They from what I gather, are a sedantsry people who live in the oasis and work for the Tuaregs. They are a very specific group of people. The Tuaregs themselves have a variety of skin colors and many of them are very dark. Not all of them are Haratin. The Tuaregs in the south of Lybia are very dark. They are not Haratin. It would be like saying every black person is an Afro American. It's a bit of an exaggeration. I'll post this video again. As you can see in the beginning, the men parading are very dark, but they are very high status. Look at their clothing, jewelry, the fact that they have swords. These are not servants, these are warriors. Now if I look carefully, I do see people in this video who are most likely lower status, but to say that all the dark skinned people are tow status Haratin is not true. When I was in collage, I use to hang out in the Arab club, mostly Palestinians. One of the new members was from Mauritania. The son of a diplomat. He was just as dark as any black person, but didn't consider himself black. He was always telling me, "you black people need to do this", "you black people need to do that". Now mind you, my skin is 6 shades lighter than his. The blackest thing about me was that I had an afro and his hair was wavey. One day I had to pull his tail to the fact that HE was black himself. "what do you mean"? I took out a piece of chocolate and held it next to his skin and said "Mohamed, what's the difference between you and this piece of chocolate"? "There ain't no damn difference, Mohamed, you're black! My skin is yellow and you're calling me black? If I can have yellow skin and be black , what the hell does that make you, born and raised in AFRICA and the color of a damn Hershy bar?!!" Just 'cause you speak Arabic don't mean ish! You black, so stop telling me what black people need to do!" Funny thing, all the Arabs in the club called him black. He was always flirting with this Lebanese chich. Her sister asked her, would you marry him, she said no because my kids would be black. Now I will say this, I agree with you that there is a lot of cultural ignorance in America and Europe about North Africa, and Africa in general and the Middle East. They haven't got a clue as to who belongs to what ethnic group and culture and who doesn't. But I will also say this, there is also a great deal of ignorance on the part of most North Africans towards greater Africa as a whole. A great deal of ignorance about world history and politics. A great deal of ignorance about the politics behind the creation of racial groups and categories. And a gross ignorance as to how they are perceieved by the outside world. And for most North Africans living in the USA, they are the most ignorant of all. They tend to throw words around that they don't understand, in a country whose hstory and customs they know absolutely nothing about. They take for granted the rights and priveledges they enjoy. Rights and priviledges not available to them in their own countries all the while looking down their noses at the very people, without whose centuries of hard work, struggle and spilt blood, they wouldn't have even been allowed to come to this country, much less obtain residency and citizenship. So if I seem to have a bug up my ass at times, pardon me, but YES I DO! I'm not singeing you out persay, but I'm educating you in the hopes that you are open to being educated. It's not out of hatred, although i do come across a bit harsh and sarcastic at times.... Okay, very often... I am a person, who is indebted to the struggles of Afro Ameicans. I am not Afro American, nor am i black skinned, nor do I consider myself black, (that's a whole other topic). But I know that when people see me, they see a . They don't care how lite my skin is, where I'm from or any of that. I know that without the work of African Americans I would not have the right of citizenship by birth. I know that I would not be able to go anywhere in this country and be served at a restaurant of my choosing, nor stay at any hotel. And this is what you, mister Algeria and the racist Coptic Nazis who like to come in here calling people savagees) needs to understand, neither would you! Regardless of what this government classifies you as on paper, the fact of the matter is that it is nothing more than divide and conquer politics. It's bulshit! Mexican Americans in this country wrre classified as white by this government ad were still held to the same segragation laws as the blackest Afro Americans. And in the 1930, this country rounded up thousands of American born Mexicans, many of them who had been living in California and Texas for centuries before America took control of those lands and deported them to Mexico. Just in the same way that not too long ago France deprted thousands of Algerians born and raised in France, (many of them who didn't even speak Arabic), to Algeria, whether or not they had any family there or not! So understand what this race business is really all about. It's politics, its greed, its human exploitation and it has nothing to do with skin color, but who is voulnerable to xploitation. Before you go labeling all dark skinned people Haratin, realize the people telling you that most likely have an agenda. And while you're at it, you need to remember your own history and the fact that when the Romans and Arabs came to North Africa they frequently raided Bereber villages for slaves, regardless of their color. In fact there was a time when the most sought after slaves in Arabia were berber women who were captured, converted to Islam and taught to speak Arabic and the Arab oppression of Berbers continues to this day! Okay, I had my baby now. Anyone else care to chime in? haratin sometime mean the oasis dwellers but a lot of berbers use the word to describe any black berber speaker or tuareg (even if they are nobles) tuareg them self do not call black tuaregs haratin you are correct there are black noble tuareg the people you refer to that work on the oases for tuareg are call izeggaghan not haratin and have i ever call black people savages here? the copts well they are very angry at how they are discriminated and how their daughters and little sisters would be kidnapped and tortured and raped and they come and see people like the mike and dana say they are arab mutts and thieves and not real egyptians of pharoahs which is great source of pride for them |
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