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Post by anansi on Apr 18, 2010 23:57:07 GMT -5
This is not about the bias of Ibn Khaldun, this is about the influence and power of "Sudanese" nationsThis is stupid because the Greeks were "pagans" and any historian with any interest in history in that period would have acknowledged that 'royal authority' of the "Sudanese" was something that people like the Almoravids and people long before them highly relied on, even relying on "pagan" kings. And how could religion put people that were inferior in a possession that they could then rule over other nations that they were previously inferior to? Wouldn't Ibn Khaldun see the "Sudan" as naturally having more 'royal authority', perhaps even before they had any kind of 'revealed religion'? How did the Islamic writers viewed the Greeks what did they said about them and other Europeans..the fact is people have a tendency to disparage folks who they don.t really know the difference has been pointed out to you such as Ibn Battuta and Ibn Khaldun one Battuta actually visited the people he was writing about the other did not....indulge me in a little Ot for as sec. I see this happening many times by people on the net who defiles peoples name they never met or nations they never been..if us Moderns who travels a lot more and have more contacts with people from all over the world can be guilty of that, then I can understand the mind-set somewhat of people in that era.
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 8:43:46 GMT -5
I remember an old quote from Ibn Khaldun talking about ancient Greeks (and Greeks would be in a temperate climate) but despite that Ibn Khaldun is considered one of the most important historians when it comes to the history of the "Sudan". Ibn Khaldun did not attribute the Ghana empire to foreigners and he frequently wrote that the kings of the "Sudan" dominated the Sahara
In fact Ibn Khaldun didn't really write that much disparaging things and I as I said he didn't seem biased against the non-Islamic Ghana empire
Both in the Eastern Muslim world and the Western Muslim world the power, influence and contributions of "Sudanese" empires were well known, no serious historian would be able to just ignore them
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 8:55:23 GMT -5
Also it doesn't make since to say Ibn Battuta traveled to these places and this some how makes Ibn Battuta completely different from Ibn Khaldun since Ibn Khaldun mostly wrote about Muslim "Sudanese" people. If Ibn Khaldun wrote about Muslim "Sudanese" then any theory he had would still have no bias on what he wrote, as being Muslim somehow made it so these people could then dominate other nations. There is no real reason to see Ibn Battuta as less biased than Ibn Khaldun However Ibn Khaldun has no bias against "Muslim" Sudanese empires but also has no bias against pagan Ghana: “Corpus of early Arabic sources for West African history” By J. F. P. Hopkins, Nehemia Levtzion books.google.com/books?id=L3tNlgQmT9wC&pg=PA332&dq==onepage&q&f=false#v=onepage&q&f=false[When Ifriqiya and the Maghrib were conquered [by the Arabs] merchants penetrated the western part of the land of the Sudan and found among them no king greater than the king of Ghana. Ghana was bounded on the west by the ocean. They were a very mighty people exercising vast authority. The seat of their authority was Ghana, a duel city on both banks of the Nile, one of the greatest and most populous cities in the world. It is mentioned by the authors of the Book of Roger [al-Idrisi] and the Book of Routes and Realms[al Bakri]]"From Negroland of the Arabs" books.google.com/books?id=6swTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q&f=false[When the conquest of the West (by the Arabs) was completed, and merchants began to penetrate into the interior, they saw no nation of the Blacks so mighty as Ghanah, the dominions of which extended westward as far as the Ocean. The King's court was kept in the city of Ghanah, which, according to the author of the Book of Roger (El Idrisi), and the author of the Book of Roads and Realms (El Bekri), is divided into two parts, standing on both banks of the Nile, and ranks among the largest and most populous cities of the world]
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 9:07:56 GMT -5
The reason this is so important is because how can you get an accurate picture of the history of the "Moors" or whatever unless you can get absolutely accurate view of what different writers actually wrote? It is absolutely indisputable that Ibn Khaldun several times says that nations of the Sudan became dominate over their counterparts to the north, to ignore this and say that Ibn Khaldun always had the "Sudanese" on the bottom is a gross distortion of history and only brings people further from understanding the history. To say that all these scholars were biased only plays down the power and influence of these "Sudanese" empires
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 9:38:45 GMT -5
homeylu I would appreciate any more information you can give I found what you said to be helpful
Anyway one thing that has caught my attention for a long time is that Yemen would be in the same climate zone as many "Sudanese" nations but also thinking more about it I think it would be generally accepted that if anything, the "Sudanese" would have more royal authority than even other nations
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 11:19:28 GMT -5
oops, big mistake, I have an abridged version of the "Corpus of early Arabic sources for West African history" so I probably missed too much. On page 333 Ibn Khaldun also mentions the emperor of Mali as passing past the Egyptian pyramids This racism was not in the abridged version books.google.com/books?id=L3tNlgQmT9wC&pg=PA322&dq==onepage&q&f=false#v=onepage&q&f=falseIts weird because Ibn Khaldun seems to repeat himself here in many ways, but is not racist books.google.com/books?id=L3tNlgQmT9wC&lpg=PA332&dq=%3Donepage&pg=PA332#v=onepage&q&f=falseHowever this is interesting: In this version he merely shows them a model "The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained” By William Desborough Cooley books.google.com/books?id=6swTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false[Mansa Musa, on his return, conceived the idea of building himself a fine palace. Abu Ishak showed him a model, and erected the edifice, with plaster and all kinds of ornaments, for which he received 12,000 mithkals of gold. Mansa Musa maintained an intimate and friendly correspondence with Sultan Abu-l-Hasan, of Al-Maghreb, and reigned twenty-five years.]
In this version the Malians are ignorant of the art of construction “Corpus of early Arabic sources for West African history” By J. F. P. Hopkins, Nehemia Levtzion books.google.com/books?id=L3tNlgQmT9wC&lpg=PA335&dq=%3Donepage&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q=egypt&f=false[Abu Isaq al-Tuwayjin made something novel for him by erecting a square building with a dome. He had a good knowledge of handicrafts and lavished all his skill on it. He plastered it over and covered it with coloured patterns so that it turned out to be the most elegant of buildings. It caused the sultan great astonishment because of the ignorance of the art of building in their land and he rewarded Abu Isaq for it with 12,000 mithuals of gold dust]
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Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2010 12:31:33 GMT -5
But anyway to clear this up about the difference between Ibn Battuta and Ibn Khaldun, both wrote positive things about Muslims and negative things about pagans right? With both of these writers pagans are often cannibals and practice many things that would bee seen as negative. What I said about the Ghana empire could be wrong because I probably missed some important thingsSo we can put it like this, both saw Muslims as positive and Pagans as negative. Ibn Battuta for example didn't want to stay in a town that was mostly pagan and he said the town smelled bad edit: Hey I don't know why it took me so long to find this quote and I can't seem to find it in other places books.google.com/books?id=V7qpKqM2Ji8C&pg=PA372&lpg=PA372&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=falseIbn Khaldun on the capital: an extensive place, well watered, cultivated and populate. It had brisk markets, and was a stopping place for trading caravans from the Maghrib
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