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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 11, 2013 19:19:14 GMT -5
1. Tunisia column is very important ie BOTH the Berbers and the" arabs". 2. Compare NE/AP vs IP and note frequency AND H sub-groups of each compared to Tunisia. from: Research article Open Access Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa Attachments:
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isa
Craftsperson
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Post by isa on Jan 11, 2013 21:10:24 GMT -5
very interesting.
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Post by zarahan on Jan 13, 2013 0:00:12 GMT -5
From ES: xyzman said: Central North Africa holds the two OLDEST clades of hg-H. not Europe and not NE/AP.
Just to summarize- what do you say as to the following:
1) What is the citation showing that central North Africa holds the two oldest clades of hg-H? WHat study?
2) How do you account for the prevalence of the female DNA if no slaves?
Break it down nice and clear- items 1 and 2
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Post by Dawn2Earth on Jan 14, 2013 3:39:06 GMT -5
It is highly unlikely that all the well known and obvious genetic impact of Europe / West-Eurasians / North Eurasians isn't accounted for by SOME[/b] lineages like paternal Hg J and maternal Hg H in places like North Africa (both H & J) and the Middle East (for H), for instance.
If even J now is according to one single study possibly Ethiopian (based on the findings of basal upstream lineages in *a* study) or is according to another study Arabian, (they've found J*-underived in this tiny Island South of Arabia & Yemen, off the coast of Somalia), wouldn't you expect there to be *one* major Haplogroup indicating a relatively Northern genetic contribution to the continent?
Even in the case of J in North Africa by the way, it seems to have undergone recent expansion from the Levant & Arabia to North Africa (according to multiple studies). It is frequent in North Africa but not very diverse there it has very little diversity at all (it certainly came from the East).
Haplogroup H, even if having an archaic origin is definitely Northward associated and definitely and certainly radiated out from West Eurasia / East Europe / West~Northwest Asia ~~~ specifically from about SouthWest Russia - East Europe (near Baltic).
You can't say that all that genetic impact is just genetic drift, you just can't.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 15, 2013 18:54:59 GMT -5
I will pick this up. Busy right now.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jan 31, 2013 20:09:37 GMT -5
Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Antonio Torroni5 , Alessandro Achilli et al Excerpt
There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and Tunisia became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples (****AND IBERIAN!!!!****), HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
Indeed, Moroccans and TUNISIANS, the populations geographically closest to Europe, harbor the highest diversity values for all considered indices. Thus, the coastal areas of northwestern Africa, after the arrival of the Iberian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of North Africa.
NOOOO!!! – conversely !!! Thus, the coastal areas of Europe, after the arrival of the Tunisian founder H1 mtDNAs, probably acted as centers for the subsequent diffusion of H1 in the internal regions of Europe
Someone talk me off the ledge. For those who can follow. See above. I wonder how long they will keep up the lie(delusion) of Iberia being a source of mt-DNA H1. The more I read the more I am convinced it is Central North Africa maybe present day Tunisia. There are essentially two ways of determining origin of a Haplogroup eg mt-DNA H1. 1. Geographic Frequency 2. Resolution(think magnifying glass) = older HG shows more variation or diversity Eg Africans have more genetic diversity ie older….The data shows, yet again, just as in other recent studies, the diversity of H1 is higher in Tunisia compared to all other African groups, even larger than Morocco the supposedly entry point of Europeans into North Africa. Notice also they did NOT include the diversity value for Iberia or Sardinia(2nd Image table). Common sense or simple logic states they should have include Iberia. Why? Their premise. the H1 is older in Iberia and was the jump off point, Iberia should have the highest diversity. There wouldn’t be any doubt if Iberia was included. Iberia however was NOT included in the data set. That is really suspicious. Now they may put it out there that the intent of the study was to the origin of H1 IN Africa. But even that is wrong, the data shows Tunisia NOT Morocco has the highest H1 diversity in Africa. Which proves their premise FALSE. Someone tell me I am wrong!! Am I the most intelligent here? So the title of the study is…again…misleading. Their lies are really sophisticated. There is no proof of what they are saying. The data shows essentially there was H1 migration from Tunisia(CAN) to the rest of North Africa and not from Morocco to the rest of North Africa. Essentially, they started with the premise/fantasy of Iberian women(not men-but give the impression men were included) migrating over to Africa without providing that data however the data prove the migration from Tunisia to the rest of North African….not even Morocco!! To date there is no genetic data showing European males migrating to Africa pre-Iron age. They will soon rescind that nonsense theory about back-migration of European women into North Africa. Give Torroni a few more years , he is BSing just much as Cruciani. Remember Cruciani et al and back migration of E1b1b from Asia to North Africa. Which was proven wrong. Then R-V88 back-migration to Cameroon area which was also recently proven wrong. Got to admit these guys got some Kahunas!!. I guess they believe no one can understand this stuff. Note(2nd image): MOST mtDNA H Haplotype diversity= Tunisia MOST nucleotide diversity = Tunisia MOST Avg number of nucleotide differences= Tunisia Most Number of Haplotypes = Tunisia is a close second Highest frequency H1 is Tunisia/Libya are (including Europe) – 1 st image From previous study, highest frequency of H* is Tunisia and Iberians Peninsula/Levant. There is a common theme here….Tunisia The only thing they are relying on for an Iberian origin is COALESCENCE age , which error can vary by +/-10K years….ANYONE?! Come to think of it was coalescence age also used to explain the back-migration of E1b1b to North Africa? Got to research that. Attachments:
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isa
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Post by isa on Jan 31, 2013 22:49:21 GMT -5
Excellent analysis.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Feb 3, 2013 21:14:31 GMT -5
Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.
García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM.
Source
Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain.
Abstract
It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Feb 3, 2013 22:33:37 GMT -5
For those of us without a strong knowledge of genetics could you explin what this means in English?..... Please? Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge. García O, Fregel R, Larruga JM, Álvarez V, Yurrebaso I, Cabrera VM, González AM. Source Basque Country Forensic Genetics Laboratory, Erandio, Bizkaia, Spain. Abstract It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, NO!!! experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Feb 4, 2013 20:10:15 GMT -5
This is very close to what I was looking for. The interpretation and choice of words are still sketchy in this one but the data is very useful. I could have done the write-up much differently. Being in the scientific engineering field myself I know a properly designed study when I see one. This is not bad but you have to weed through the hypothetical and focus on the facts. . What is useful, is they use the same “measuring stick” when studying the mtDNA haplo-groups and also the same resolution across continents. The only drawback is, he did not use the latest technology as to not skew his hypothesis. Increased resolution would have been more informative. But to work through the premise they had no other choice. That said – This is first time I have seen that such a high frequency of mt-DNA H next to Cameroon(R-V88). As I said when they eventually sample enough African populations they will have to re-label R1b and H1 as African Haplogroups not Eurasian. Mali/Niger//Burkino Faso(Bantus) have a higher FREQUENCY of Eurasian female haplogroup than Europe(Iberia). GTFOH!!!! Ha! Ha! Ha! AND!!! Listen up HV is 3X higher in Burkina-Faso than the Cantabria Cornice. Look out Torroni! Those who don’t know. HV is upstream of H. Similarly to R-V88 is upstream to R-M269. Sage this may be your smoking gun on migration through Iberia. It will be really fascinating when the migration patterns of AMH is finally mapped. The migration of AMH populations is not simplistic as some of the racialist believes. It is becoming really clear the migration pattern is a complex scenario of migrating Africans within Africa and waves after waves OUT of Africa. Again this proves there is no race. What we have here is population movement and adaptation to their new environment. This paper have two parts. 1. Fact 2. Fiction. 1. Facts are the data eg frequency values, diversity values, identification of Haplogroups (assuming proper sampling). 2. Fiction – when they try to explain away or justify data that is a surprise to them. eg language as African slaves in Europe/Asia 1000ya or back-migration to Africa. Or when they try to interject their importance in pre-history and early historical times. Usually their prejudices screw up their logic Attachments:
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Feb 4, 2013 20:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Feb 4, 2013 20:37:16 GMT -5
@truthteacher.
It simply means that there is contradictory evidence of the "Refugia Theory".
If you are familiar with the theory introduced by Toronni back about 1999. Which states the Basque are paleolithic Europeans who seeked refuge in the Iberia area during the Last Ice Age. When the ice receded Europe was repopulated by the Basque decendents.
The cited paper and many others now disprove of that theory. Toronni based this theory on the high frequency of R1b in the Basque population. I believe it is greater than 80% for the Basque compared to 60% for Western Europeans. It was a reasonable theory at the time.
Now with advance technology the evidence point to the The Basque R1b(male DNA) actually being younger than modern Europeans. This paper now confirms the mtDNA H(female) of the Basque is also younger than modern European women. So the question now is what was the migration pattern.
See- above table - Modern technology and more testing of Africans is now confirms that Africans have a higher frequency and maybe diversity of mtDNA H. The so called female European marker gene. Furthermore Africa has the highest frequency of all population EVER tested of HV(Burkino-Faso).
Now, mt-DNA HV is the immediate "ancestor" of mtDNA H. So the question is how did it get there. Did the people from Burkino Faso migrate to Western Europe. A lot of questions need to be answered.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Feb 5, 2013 20:37:07 GMT -5
@xyyman You kept a diggin n diggin ... and badro, you got it! Fresh hot HV!! TALE OF THE FREQUENCIES HV expansion starts in Burkina Faso(20%) and spreads north to Niger(12%) for Libyan(9.7%) arrival where it will fan west and east . West to Tunisia(75%) and Morocco(73%) onto France(69%). Well?
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Feb 13, 2013 5:38:25 GMT -5
this study was posted by Lioness would you believe....
Will respond soon
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 4, 2013 19:23:14 GMT -5
Here is a gem...This one blew my mind. The abstract threw me until I read the full study. I thought I would be proven wrong at last about H1 being of African Tunisian origin. Will post full study soon. What was amazing was they stated that H1 and H3 could possible be of Tunisian origin but they prefer to stick with Iberian. This is the first time they have admitted that possibility.
========== Post-Last Glacial Maximum Expansion From Iberia to North Africa Revealed by Fine Characterization of mtDNA H Haplogroup in Tunisia
Lotfi Cherni,1 Vero´ nica Fernandes,2 Joana B. Pereira,2 Marta D. Costa,2 Ana Goios,2,3 Sabeh Frigi,1 Besma Yacoubi-Loueslati,1 Mohamed Ben Amor,1 Abdelhakim Slama,4 Anto´ nio Amorim,2,3 Amel Ben Ammar El Gaaied,1 and Luý´sa Pereira2,
ABSTRACT
The first large-scale fine characterization of Tunisian H lineages clarifies that the post-Last glacial maximum expansion originating in Iberia not only led to the resettlement of Europe but also of North Africa. We found that 46% of 81 Tunisian H lineages subscreened for 1,580 bp in mtDNA coding region were affiliated with H1 and H3 subhaplogroups, which are known to have originated in Iberia. Although no signs of local expansion were detected, which would allow a clear dating of their introduction, the younger and less diverse Tunisian H1 and H3 lineages indicate Iberia as the radiating centre. Major contributions from historical migrations to this Iberian genetic imprint in Tunisia were ruled out by the mtDNA gene pool similarity between Berber/Arab/cosmopolitan samples and some ‘‘Andalusian’’ communities, settled by the descendents of the ‘‘Moors’’ who once lived in Iberia for 10 centuries (between 8th and 17th centuries), before being expelled to Tunisia. Am J Phys Anthropol 139:253–260, 2009. VVC 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
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