Miscell posts- unrelated/off-topic/duplicate/archived

[ringo]

Mar 31, 2017 4:28:41 GMT -5 ringo said:

Jan 20, 2017 21:19:26 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Excellent roundup, and analysis of the data. Do you have citations to the
studies re the ancient sub-Saharan traces in Scotland and Sweden?

--------------------------------------------------------------
“There seem to have been several Palaeolithic and/or Mesolithic migrations from Northwest Africa to Iberia. The oldest might have brought West African haplogroup A1a to Western and Northern Europe during the Palaeolithic. A1a has been found in modern populations as far north as Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia and Finland. The presence of African maternal lineages (L2, L3 and possibly L1b1) has been attested in Neolithic Iberia. Northwest Africans would also have brought U6 and possibly HV0/V lineages to Europe.

A small percentage of sub-Saharan African admixture has been identified in Late Mesolithic Swedes from the Pitted Ware culture (2800-2000 BCE), which would imply that A1a was already present in northern Europe at the time. Another Mesolithic sample from Loschbour in Luxembourg had dark hair and ****considerably**** darker skin than modern Europeans.

Negroids  are  only  8000  years old:
global.britannica.com/topic/Asselar-man
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asselar_man

Before  Negroids existed,  people   in  Central  and  West  Africa  resembled  ancient  140  000  year  old peoples:
www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-14947363

Read  about  IWO  ELERU  PEOPLE!

Haplogroup  U6  like all  EURASIAN  HAPLOGROUPS,  ORIGINATED IN  THE MIDDLE EAST!     A  35  000  year  old Romanian  carried  MTDNA  U6!   CRO-MAGNON  carried  U6   into  North  Africa  where it is the  main  Haplogroup  of the  COPTS  of EGYPT!   The   oldest  ancient  skulls  of  modern humans  found in  Europe, North  Africa and  Middle  East  are CRO-MAGNON!
www.nature.com/articles/srep25501
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19144388

[ringo]

The only ancient skulls of modern humans found in Europe are of CRO-MAGNON!

Cro-Magnon go back 45 000 years and he originated in the MIDDLE EAST.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian

These early Europeans carried high levels of NEANDERTHAL DNA and its no coincidence modern Europeans look like their NEANDERTHAL ANCESTORS!

Ancient AUSTRALOID peoples of Asia probably look like their ancient DENISOVAN ANCESTOR! Modern day Indians are a mix of Australoids and CAUCASIANS from the Middle Eastern Farmers! Northern Indians carry overwhelmingly R1A originating in IRAN!

[mindovermatter]

^^^^There were still blacks in North Africa and the Levant even after all the invasions to the region by foreign Eurasian tribes like the Vandals and Visigoths etc etc. And very large significant populations of them! If they lightened up, they didn't turn white which is ridicoules, they simply turned a brownish color.


Here is more evidence that modern White Europeans, are not an evolution of the original inhabitants of Europe, who migrated there from Africa and the "Middle East" in very ancient times; but rather the descendants of recent Eurasian steppe migrants and invaders that gradually displaced and absorbed the original black/brown Europeans through massive population migrations of their kind to Europe:[ (Btw South-East Asian=South Asian in this article, they made a mistake with that):

www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project

Scottish people's DNA study could 'rewrite nation's history'

Evidence of African, Arabian, south-east Asian and Siberian ancestry in Scotland, says author of book tracing genetic journey


Scotland is one of the most diverse nations on earth, claims Alistair Moffat, author of the book The Scots: A Genetic Journey. Photograph: Murdo Macleod for the Guardian


A large scale study of Scottish people's DNA is threatening to "rewrite the nation's history", according to author Alistair Moffat.

Scotland, he told the Edinburgh international book festival, despite a long-held belief that its ethnic make-up was largely Scots, Celtic, Viking and Irish, was in fact "one of the most diverse nations on earth".

"The explanation is simple. We are a people on the edge of beyond; on the end of a massive continent. Peoples were migrating northwest; and they couldn't get any further. We have collected them."

He and his colleagues have found West African, Arabian, south-east Asian and Siberian ancestry in Scotland. "The West African ancestry mostly originates in the 18th century, so it is almost certainly to do with the slave trade," he said.

David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, whose immediate ancestors are from the Caribbean, also revealed at the festival this week that DNA analysis had shown he has Orcadian ancestry – also likely to relate to British involvement in the Atlantic slave trade.

One per cent of all Scottish men, said Moffat, have Berber ancestry – why, he says, remains a mystery, though he believes that the penetration of people from the medieval caliphate of Cordoba "must have been immensely important". Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland.

Many of Moffat and Wilson's findings are laid out in their book The Scots: A Genetic Journey. But research continues apace, and most recent finding suggests that porridge has been a crucial factor in the nation's early history, Moffat said.

Until recently, he said, it had been believed that farming arrived incrementally in Scotland, around 3,000 years ago, by a process of slow and gradual adoption, by women, of new techniques. But their recent DNA research suggests something quite different, he said: that it arrived quickly via young male immigrants from what is now Germany.

These young men, he said, brought brand-new techniques with them, planting grass-derived crops that could be turned into porridge and fed to young children. This new improved food production reduced the period, argued Moffat, that the hunter-gatherer mothers had to devote to breast-feeding, and thus increased their fertility. This led to a population explosion, he said, laying the seeds of a recognisable society in northern Britain. "It is a revelation. Porridge, and I'm not joking about this, is absolutely crucial to our history."

Not every analysis of DNA has delivered welcome results. DNA analysis on Moffat himself – a proud Scottish Borders man – showed that his ancestry was English. "We don't offer counselling for that," he said.

^^^This article is yet more proof that confirms Mike's and my "Albino Indo-Europeans/Eurasian white steppe migrants" mass migrating and invading Europe relatively recently in the ancient time period to early middle ages period, and mixing up and whitening up the original black/brown populations of Europe gradually. These White Indo-European steppe migrants and invaders came to Europe from Central Asia and Siberia as indicated in my links in the last post. This is also confirmation of my idea that modern White Europeans are the combination of the albinos of the original black/brown African/Near-Eastern settlers to Europe, whom settled in Northern Europe as a place of refuge and a suitable habitat for themselves, and White albino eurasian Indo-European steppe migrants, aka Mike's Dravidian albinos, whom arrived to Europe in big population waves from Central Asia and Siberia starting in the late Neolithic to ending around the start of the dark ages; cross-breeding together in the different regional quadrants of Europe in different time periods in differing percentages to create the Modern White European ethnic groups we know of today!

More evidence of that can be found, again in the links and articles I provided in my last post above in this thread!
And of course stuff like this is also a nice supplement to the above article and provides a better picture and more clarification!




Here is another article that confirms what I have been saying in this thread, as well as the professor that wrote the articles I provided links for:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3342804/Orkney-Islanders-have-Siberian-relatives.html

Orkney Islanders have Siberian relatives

A new study on ancient human migrations suggests that Orcadians and Siberians are closely related, writes Roger Highfield.


Orkney Islanders are more closely related to people in Siberia and in Pakistan than those in Africa and the near East, according to a novel method to chart human migrations.

The surprising findings come from a new way to infer ancient human movements from the variation of DNA in people today, conducted by a team from the University of Oxford and University College Cork, which has pioneered a technique that analyses the entire human genetic makeup, or genome.

Although it provides relative genetic contributions of one group to another, rather than timings, it confirms how the first modern humans came out of Africa 50,000 years ago, mostly from a group in southern Africa called the San.

But the subsequent movements around the world, via the near east, central Asia and then Europe, turned up some surprises including a strong similarity between the Sindih, a people who once lived in Pakistan, and Orkney Islanders, or Orcadians.

In turn, the Orcadians are closely related to the people who first colonised Siberia.

"Reindeer herders (a people called the Yakut) are indeed unexpectedly related to British, because one of their strongest signals of ancestry is from Orcadians, the only British population in the sample" says Dr Daniel Falush of University College Cork, a co-author on the paper in the journal PLoS Genetics.

The Orcadians, or those closely related to them in central/northern Europe, also contribute to two other North East Asian populations, the Hezhen and Han from Northern China.

"Humans like to tell stories and amongst the most captivating is the story of the global spread of modern humans from their original homeland in Africa," says Dr Falush.

"Traditionally this has been the preserve of anthropologists but geneticists are now starting to make an important contribution."

Previous methods have either concentrated on one part of the human genetic code (for example, just the Y-chromosome) or a greatly oversimplified model of heredity.

"Our technique enables us to identify more subtle details about genetic contributions than other methods," says Dr Garrett Hellenthal of the University of Oxford, a co-author.

"By incorporating the inheritance of 'blocks' of DNA between generations, rather than just individual genes, it captures a panoramic view of the sharing of patterns of DNA across the entire human genome," he says.

"This allows us to consider a vast number of possible colonisation scenarios - not just the ones people have already thought of - and use an algorithm to determine the most likely migration routes."

The new technique was used to analyse 2540 genetic markers using DNA data from 927 individuals of diverse ethnicity whose DNA was collected by the Human Diversity Project.

The researchers believe their method can cope with much larger datasets with over 500,000 genetic markers and are now working on a detailed picture of migrations into Europe.

^^^Take into account that Scotland IS VERY VERY VERY FAR FROM SIBERIA DISTANCE WISE! You have to cross the equivalent of three continental America's diameter distance wise, to get from Siberia to Scotland!

And:

www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-17740638

Study reveals 'extraordinary' DNA of people in Scotland

The DNA of people living in Scotland has "extraordinary" and "unexpected" diversity, according to a new study.

The Scotland's DNA project, led by Edinburgh University's Dr Jim Wilson, has tested almost 1,000 Scots in the last four months to determine the genetic roots of people in the country.

The project discovered four new male lineages, which account for one in 10 Scottish men.

It also found that actor Tom Conti is related to Napoleon Bonaparte.

Scotland's DNA was set up by Dr Wilson along with historian Alistair Moffat, the current rector of St Andrews University.

Using new technology, scientists were able to pinpoint a participant's DNA marker, from which they tracked the person's history and lineage.

Conti and Napoleon both share the M34 marker, which is Saracen in origin.

The project found that Scotland has almost 100 different groups of male ancestry from across Europe and further afield.

More than 150 different types of female DNA from Europe, Asia and Africa were discovered.

Royal line
Researchers believe that Scotland's location could be a factor in the "astonishing and unique" origins of people from the country.

In a statement, Dr Wilson and Mr Moffat said: "Perhaps geography, Scotland's place at the farthest north-western end of the European peninsula, is the reason for great diversity.

"For many thousands of years, migrants could move no further west. Scotland was the end of many journeys."

Scotland's DNA also found that more than 1% of all Scotsmen are direct descendants of the Berber and Tuareg tribesmen of the Sahara, a lineage which is around 5600 years old.

Royal Stewart DNA was confirmed in 15% of male participants with the Stewart surname. They are directly descended from the royal line of kings.

Scientists believe comedian and presenter Fred MacAuley's ancestors were slaves, sold at the great slave market in Dublin in the 9th Century, despite his name suggesting a Viking heritage.

They said MacAuley's slave ancestor was taken by ship to the Hebrides and had an affair with his owner's wife, thereby intruding DNA into the MacAulay line.

Scotland's DNA will soon be renamed Britain's DNA as the project aims to widen its genetic study to include the English, Welsh and Irish.

And:

www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/quintessentially-british-village-traces-their-genetic-ancestry/

Quintessentially "British" Village Traces Their Genetic Ancestry



The village of Bledington is like the archetypal view of Britain, complete with cute cottages, a 12th-century church, Morris dancing poles, and pubs full of warm beer. Therefore, a new genetic test has decided to test just how “British” they are by looking at their DNA.

First thing’s first, as any British person will tell you, the idea of “Britishness” is a confusing thing (even without getting genetics involved). The first settlers on the British Isles obviously came from somewhere outside of Britain. Then over the following millennia, Britain spent a lot of its time being invaded by other parts of the world, including the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Normans. Around the 19th century, Britain started invading huge parts of the world. This means this little island has always been mixing with other parts of the world, both genetically and culturally.

Therefore, there’s no set thing that defines Britishness. As this genetic study also highlights, even this quintessentially British village is a great mish-mash of ancestry.

The study by genealogy company Ancestry collected saliva samples from 120 people in the village and asked them a few questions about their heritage. Population data says that 94 percent of the village deem themselves as “White British” and 56 percent of the study group didn’t expect to find results outside of the UK.

Nevertheless, the analysis of the DNA results revealed that the average resident was 42 percent Anglo-Saxon. This was the dominant culture of Britain from the 5th century CE, consisting of northern Germanic tribes who migrated from continental Europe and indigenous British groups who took up parts of their culture. A further 20.61 percent were from Western Europe, 17.03 percent Irish, 10.06 percent Scandinavian, and 2.8 percent Iberian (the peninsula of Spain and Portugal). Many others found traces of genetic heritage from Native America, Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and Melanesia.

A fair few of the village’s residents were pretty shocked by their results. Local resident Guy Chittenden, 24, said he always strongly believed he was “100 percent British.”

“All I know is English people in my family – and as far as I am aware I don’t know any relatives outside of Britain,” he said in a statement.

When he received his results, however, he was shocked to find out that he was just 3 percent Anglo-Saxon, with the rest of his genetic ancestry being from Western Europe, Ireland, and Scandinavia.

Commenting on the study, AncestryDNA spokesman Russell James said: “Despite the majority of residents assuming they were British through and through, this fascinating process uncovered some incredibly diverse heritage and allowed us to take a broader look at the genetic history of the village as a whole.

“It seems that Bledington‘s picturesque and arguably ‘typical England’ look and feel is deceiving as, on average, less than half of the villagers’ DNA (42 percent) was identified as Great British.”

With that being said, how Europe became a region originally filled entirely with black/brown people, with a sprinkling of white-ish people in the isolated northern regions of Europe in ancient times, to becoming significantly to entirely white to the classical and post classical period, is something I explain with evidence in this thread:

egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2633/myth-european-race-vandals-celts

[mindovermatter]

More proof that supplements to the information above, the British Isles region is probably the most isolated farthest off region in Europe, and large portion of Europe itself was pretty isolated and uncharted and uncultivated in ancient times as written by Greco-Roman reocrds. Now these results in this article show that even an isolated ancient region like the British isles has a jumbled up and pretty confusing mongrelized genetic pool and ancestry lineage.

This article is once again further proof that, what I wrote about African albinos cross-breeding with Indian/South Albinos aka Indo-European, because this is the only explanation to describe the modern white appearance of the British Isles people, despite their jumbling of African and Asiatic genes all over the place and modern African and Asiatic groups not looking like modern White British isles people at all!

www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-think

DNA of the nation revealed...and we're not as 'British' as we think

Major new study into DNA reveals mixed ethnic make-up of the UK – AncestryDNA
Study looked at the nation’s ethnicity dating back 500 years from 26 global regions
Reveals the genetic make-up of the average UK resident, and variations in English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish genetic make-ups
Average UK resident is 36.94% British, 21.59% Irish and 19.91% Western European (French/German)
The genetic make-up of the nation has been revealed – with Yorkshire proven to be the most ‘British’ region in the UK, while London is the most ethnically diverse and the East Midlands the most Scandinavian region in the UK.

This is according to new analysis of the genetic history of two million people worldwide by Ancestry, the leader in family history and consumer genomics, based on data collated from the AncestryDNA home DNA test that examines a person’s entire genome at over 700,000 different genetic locations.

The results reveal the genetic ethnic make up of the ‘average’ person in the UK and what countries and/or regions they can trace their ancestry back to over the past 500 years. They found that the average UK resident is 36.94% British (Anglo Saxon), 21.59% Irish (Celtic) and 19.91% Western European (the region covered today by France and Germany).

Following these top three regional ethnicities in the average UK resident are Scandinavia (9.20%), the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) (3.05%), and Italy and Greece (1.98%). For more information on these regions see Table 2 below.

Interestingly, breakdowns of the data also reveal differences between residents of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and even within English regions.

English people have significantly less Irish ancestry (just 20% of their genetic make-up) on average compared to people living in Scotland (43.84%), Wales (31.99%) and Northern Ireland (48.49%). English residents do however have the highest amount of Scandinavian (9.39%) and Western European (French/German) (20.45%) ancestry.
Scottish residents have the highest amount of Finnish/Northwest Russian (1.31%) heritage, which is explained by their geographic proximity.
Welsh residents have the highest proportion of ancestry from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) in the UK (3%).
Within England, London is the most ethnically diverse region, having the highest amount of heritage from 17 of the 26 regions[ii] analysed. Yorkshire was found to have the highest percentage of British (Anglo Saxon) ancestry (41.17%). The East Midlands has the most Scandinavian ancestry (10.37%) as well as the most Eastern European (2.47%).

The East of England has the most Italian/Greek (Southern European) ancestry (2.53%) and Western European (French/German) (22.52%) ancestry, as well as the highest amount from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) (3.43%). Within England, the North East is home to people with the most Irish (Celtic) ancestry (27.58%).

The AncestryDNA test uses microarray-based autosomal DNA testing, which surveys a person’s entire genome at over 700,000 locations via a simple saliva sample. Analysis of the data provides a prediction of the locations of ancestors from 26 separate worldwide populations including Great Britain and Ireland, Europe, Scandinavia, Asia and South and North Africa.

In contrast to Y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA tests, which only test one line of your family and generally provide information about ancestry several thousand years ago, the AncestryDNA autosomal test targets the last few hundred or thousand years. This enables people to learn more about their more immediate ancestral history.

Brad Argent from AncestryDNA said:

“At a time when the concept of British identity is at the forefront of many people’s minds, it’s interesting to see that when it comes to our ancestry, we’re not as British or Irish as we may think. The UK has been a cultural and ethnic melting pot for not just generations, but centuries, and our DNA data provides a fascinating glimpse into our ancestors, including hints of immigration and emigration. While it’s fascinating looking at this data on a national scale, the fun really starts when you test your own DNA and begin to delve into your own family history.

“AncestryDNA revolutionises the way people can discover more about themselves and their family and also connect with relatives they previously didn’t know existed.”

Tests are available for purchase at www.ancestrydna.co.uk. AncestryDNA is offered by Ancestry – the leader in family history and consumer genomics. When combined with Ancestry’s existing database of over 17 billion records and 80 million family trees, this creates the ultimate family history resource.

ENDS


The 26 regions are: Africa North, Ivory Coast/Ghana, Benin/Togo, Cameroon/Congo, Mali, Nigeria, Senegal, Africa Southeastern Bantu, Africa South-Central Hunter Gatherers, Caucasus, Middle East, Native American, Asia South, Asia Central, Asia East, Great Britain (Anglo Saxon), Ireland (Celtic), Europe East, Scandinavia (Europe North), Italy/Greece (Europe South), Europe West (France/Germany), Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal), European Jewish, Finland/Northwest Russia, Polynesia, Melanesia.

As I said before, the only explanation for the above results is the result of African and Asiatic population cross-breeding in Europe, as Sforza basically states in his research. Given that there is a GENETIC DISCONTINUITY BETWEEN ANCIENT ORIGINAL EUROPEAN SETTLERS AND MODERN WHITE EUROPEANS, this is evidence that there were large scale migrations of White Indo-European/Turkic type peoples from the Eurasian steppes, aka Mike's Dravidian albinos, to Europe to create this jumbled up confusing gene pool of modern Britons, which is one of the most isolated regions in Europe geographic wise.

And the albinism thing with African albinos cross-breeding with Indian/South Asian albinos is the only logical rational explanation as to the unique white like appearance of these White Europid British Isles people, despite them being hybrids of various modern African and Asiatic populations that look nothing like White people on modern genetic charts!

[zarahan]

Feb 10, 2020 14:36:47 GMT -5 asante said:

May 27, 2018 3:15:16 GMT -5 djoser-xyyman said:

quote:
"I have not found much
evidence that Cuvier had a significant impact on the discussion until much later,
although already in 1821 Thomas Edward Bowdich, using the resources of Cuvier’s
personal library and his own direct knowledge of the Ashantis, wrote An Essay on the
Superstitions, Customs, and Arts, Common to the Ancient Egyptians, Abyssinians, and Ashantees, in
which he argued that Egyptian civilization was diffused via Ethiopia **to the West Coast
of Africa.** Bowdich thereby reversed the widespread belief of the time that Egypt had
received its civilization from Ethiopia. However, Bowdich’s argument seems to have
had little impact, although a similar thesis was established independently some twenty
years later. Bowdich’s observation that he found among the higher class of Ashantis the
aquiline nose and thin lips of the modern Copts and ancient Egyptians also failed to
attract attention.32
parallax"

One must asked....WHY IN THE HELL ARE SO MANY BLACKS ON EGYPTSEARCH SO SCARED TO MOVE ON THE BOLDED STATEMENTS? I've created a thread that lays that shit out with MODERN research, and even when presented to white supremacist they have no rebuttal!!! It's like some of these blacks on Egyptsearch are scared that if they make the bold proclamation that Kemet is our heritage that some white boogieman would come and take it. If that's our heritage, and folks are scared to claim it then that 'PATHETIC! It's the epitome of an inferiority complex! 

Feb 10, 2020 14:36:47 GMT -5 asante said:

May 27, 2018 3:15:16 GMT -5 djoser-xyyman said:

quote:
"I have not found much
evidence that Cuvier had a significant impact on the discussion until much later,
although already in 1821 Thomas Edward Bowdich, using the resources of Cuvier’s
personal library and his own direct knowledge of the Ashantis, wrote An Essay on the
Superstitions, Customs, and Arts, Common to the Ancient Egyptians, Abyssinians, and Ashantees, in
which he argued that Egyptian civilization was diffused via Ethiopia **to the West Coast
of Africa.** Bowdich thereby reversed the widespread belief of the time that Egypt had
received its civilization from Ethiopia. However, Bowdich’s argument seems to have
had little impact, although a similar thesis was established independently some twenty
years later. Bowdich’s observation that he found among the higher class of Ashantis the
aquiline nose and thin lips of the modern Copts and ancient Egyptians also failed to
attract attention.32
parallax"

One must asked....WHY IN THE HELL ARE SO MANY BLACKS ON EGYPTSEARCH SO SCARED TO MOVE ON THE BOLDED STATEMENTS? I've created a thread that lays that shit out with MODERN research, and even when presented to white supremacist they have no rebuttal!!! It's like some of these blacks on Egyptsearch are scared that if they make the bold proclamation that Kemet is our heritage that some white boogieman would come and take it. If that's our heritage, and folks are scared to claim it then that 'PATHETIC! It's the epitome of an inferiority complex! 

Make no mistake, I would love to see more direct links and have posted a ton of stuff on that, but
the data on hand do not show a direct diffusion of Egyptian civilization via Ethiopia to the West Coast.
Where for example is mummification from Egypt, going through Ethiopia, then emerging in West Africa?
What form did mummification take in Ethiopia that is directly traceable to Egypt? And did said mummification
remain the same or was it modified in some way, before or during transmission to West Africa.
Give some specifics with specific dates not simply speculation or general movement of say people in
the Sahara green period 9000bc. Credible specifics to build a reasonable model on are what counts most.
This is and remains the problem with some of these diffusionist claims.

But you may have new info. How does your claim apply to one of the main features of Egyptian civ-
mummification? Remember- you hold to Egypt first--> then Ethiopia --> then West Africa.

What can you put on the table that SPECIFICALLY supports this argument?

Some of the people on ES hang out a lot on the white supremacist Anthro sites and they could
easily chop up your argument. Even the part with the aquiline noses is a giant hole right away.
West Africans don't need Egyptians or Ethiopians to have aquiline noses. Right off the bat the argument
gives them an easy score- Strike 1. As folk here have told you some years back, you need to tighten up
some of these things.

[asante]

Feb 10, 2020 20:25:19 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Feb 10, 2020 14:36:47 GMT -5 asante said:

One must asked....WHY IN THE HELL ARE SO MANY BLACKS ON EGYPTSEARCH SO SCARED TO MOVE ON THE BOLDED STATEMENTS? I've created a thread that lays that shit out with MODERN research, and even when presented to white supremacist they have no rebuttal!!! It's like some of these blacks on Egyptsearch are scared that if they make the bold proclamation that Kemet is our heritage that some white boogieman would come and take it. If that's our heritage, and folks are scared to claim it then that 'PATHETIC! It's the epitome of an inferiority complex! 

Make no mistake, I would love to see more direct links the data on hand do not show a direct diffusion of Egyptian civilization via Ethiopia to the West Coast.

Oh, here's a comparison that I myself found between ancient Kemetic traditional art and recent West African art;

"Notice how both the Kemetic pharaoh and Dahomey king are depicted as giant rulers, and have one hand sticking out while being served by smaller humans. More proof of this diffusion of people and culture from the Hapi Valley into interior regions of Africa is shown in the appearance of the ancient Kemetic spiritual system being shown in these other African cultures. The Osirian crock and flail were sported by the kings of inner Africa. Notice that the Dahomey king holds the traditional Osirion Crock while the ancient Kemetic figure holds the Flail. It's also note worthy...that the color scheme of the Dahomey (Nigeria) are not depicting "black skinned" people despite us knowing that these people were/are still melaninated "black" Africans." 

Why in Hell would a non Kemetyu people be utilizing the Osirian Crock and Flail insignia to indicate royalty, along with other details in their respective paintings almost matching verbatim? This a small sample of overlapping cultural affinities that are seen between ancient Kemet and Niger Congo speakers (West African in this example) that are found in no other groups on Earth. 

Where for example is mummification from Egypt, going through Ethiopia, then emerging in West Africa? What form did mummification take in Ethiopia that is directly traceable to Egypt? And did said mummification

remain the same or was it modified in some way, before or during transmission to West Africa.

What are you talking about? The Pharonic reamins of Meroe were mummified;

"we know that the pyramid proper, a sun symbol, which contains or surmounts the burial vault where the royal mummy lay, is but one element of the complex constituting the complete royal burial place."

UNESCO 

Here is a recent Nigerian mummy;

Mummy of the Obi Ijeh of Idumuoghu,Ibusa, Nigeria From Oscar Pfouma "Histoire culturelle de l'Afrique Noire 

Give some specifics with specific dates not simply speculation or general movement of say people in
the Sahara green period 9000bc.

Well if a direct diffusion from the Hapi Valley is being argued, wouldn't the period 8-9,000 years prior to dynastic civilization be somewhat irrelevant to my specific argument? While the Hapi Valley and certain West African populace certainly had a common origin in the ancient Sahara prior to the formulation of dynastic civilization, the cultures of the latter is what is specifically being argued. Your demands for evidence in that regard are therefore irrelevant question. Let's pay attention to what is actually being argued here Zaharan. 

Credible specifics to build a reasonable model on are what counts most.
This is and remains the problem with some of these diffusionist claims.

Wouldn't ancient and modern DNA be credible Zaharan? 

How does a scholar's work from the 80's reflect modern genetic patterns of today? How did M. Alfred know that the populations that carry the signature Niger-Congo paternal genetic marker E1b1a, have an ultimate origin in the Sudan, with influence in the vicinity of that region? It would only make sense if there was already a sufficient basis for the theory with archaeology alone. The hypothesized origins of Niger-Congo speakers by M. Alfred shows an almost absent frequency of the E1b1a unlike almost any other region of Africa. The genetic markers lack of distributions is almost identical to the area in which Alfred proposed the origins of the Niger-Congo speakers. This looks like a clear and complete migration from the homeland that has been proposed. It's like a puzzle piece.Not to mention that the main lines of the migration from Kemet in Alfred's map from the 80's below ironically point to the regions with the highest frequency of the Niger-Congo speakers signature genetic marker based on the Rose study from 2008. 

We also know from Keita, that the because of the remnants of E1b1a in areas not affected by the deadend theory of the "Bantu Migration from Cameroon" cannot be explained by the Bantu migration. This study was 8 years prior to the finding of M2 in Dynastic Kemet, which would mean that the hypothesis that he lays out in the passage below of it's presence in the wet Sahara and it's migration onto the Hapi Valley during the formative period of Hapi Valley civilization is the best explanation. Remember that recent DNA findings of Twa like populations of ancient Cameroon had noting to do with Niger-Congo speakers, which almost completely discredits the theory of the Bantu Migration from Cameroon. Aside from the Mande in the Western Sahara there is no genetic evidence supporting the prehistoric presence of Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa. 

The Distribution of E-M2 and it clades in Central and Southern Africa has usually been explained by the ‘‘Bantu migrations" (which occurred 3000-2500 B.C), in which agriculture and iron technologies spread from the Bantu's homeland located in the Benue complex i.e. Nigeria/Cameroon’’ But their presence in the Nile Valley and in other Non-Bantu speakers Can Not be explained in this way. E-M2 distribution is probably explained by their presence in the populations of the “Early Holocene Sahara”, Who went on to people the Nile Valley in The mid-Holocene era (12,000 B.P.) according to Hassan (1988). Keita and Boyce; Boyce, A. J. (Anthony J.) (2005). "Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation". 

But you may have new info. How does your claim apply to one of the main features of Egyptian civ-
mummification? Remember- you hold to Egypt first--> then Ethiopia --> then West Africa.

For starters, the term "Ethiopia" is being used in the context of "Nubia" proper not modern country who was given the name within our parents lifetime. When the Persians invaded Kemet, there was a mass migration of the Niger-Congo speaking (and Nilo-Saharan, and possibly some Cushitic speakers) populace from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia ("Ethiopia"). From Napata into Mereo. The sudden prominence of Mereotic Kush was the direct result of this diffusion of a large percentage of the refugees from original Kemetyu populace resettling further up the Hapi. 

What can you put on the table that SPECIFICALLY supports this argument?

Is oral tradition (yet another correlating story among West African Niger-Congo speakers as C.A. Diop so confidently stated in his book) of one of West Africa's most prominent populations not "SPECIFIC" enough;

"Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan state that Akans originated from ancient Ghana. The Akan people migrated from the north through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms. These kingdoms grew and around 750 AD the Ghana Empire was formed. The Empire lasted from 750 AD to 1200 AD and collapsed as a result of the introduction of Islam in Western Sudan, due to the zeal of the Muslims to impose their religion, their ancestors eventually left for Kong (i.e. present-day Ivory Coast). From Kong, they moved to Wam and then to Dormaa (both located in present-day Brong-Ahafo region). The movement from Kong was necessitated by the desire of the people to find suitable savannah conditions since they were not used to forest life. Around the 14th century, they moved from Dormaa South Eastwards to Twifo-Heman North West Cape Coast. This move was commercially motivated." 

Here are more sources supporting what has been written about the Akan's Hapi Valley Origins. 

www.academia.edu/3876359/AKAN_-_The_People_of_Ancient_Khanit_Akan_Land_-_Ancient_Nubia_Sudan_

unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000042627

Is the oral tradition not SPECIFIC enough? It appears to be word for word, with more details actually. Do you need more oral traditions from the various nation-states throughout Western Africa correlating with this Akan version? Do you think that the Akan consulted with the European whose text I reposted to come to this conclusion Zaharan? Do you honestly believe that they themselves do not have their own artifacts to correlate these stories of their origins? Did you see above where I posted the neighboring Yoruba patriarch is also said to have been a migrant for the exact same reason? 

Some of the people on ES hang out a lot on the white supremacist Anthro sites and they could
easily chop up your argument.

 Zaharan..... sit down! My thread's prototype is still on Forum Biodiversity, and Theapricity. I tested my theory on those simps, and they all ducked their tails between their legs and ran away like cowards. Everyone from Beyoku to the other coons on the site made their little comments, but no serious rebuttal. Hell I've even stated, that BEYOKU was the one who went rogue one day, and pointed this out with some of the maps above. The issue with him, was that he was afraid to stand on it. I went so hard in the prototypes that the white supremacist moderators who were used to creating threads on the topic, while subsequently "controlling the narrative" (via the title - "Ancient Egypt was Caucasoid") resorted to having to "approve" my post, banning me, and then deleting my post. The one's who had the balls to try to step to my argument, (the most prominent racist) got their asses tossed out of the "debate" within 3 exchanges. I beat one dude's ass so bad in the discussion, that after Ellias banned my third account (lol) he felt that he had to delete the entire debate from the thread (and there was no profanity). The same thing on Anthroscape and Historum. The same thing over on Anthrogencia, which is the "new" covertly racist "genetic' forum. They resorted to these cowardly tactics when I created a thread to present the 2018 study from SOY Keita about a year and a half ago. Who are these people who you think will crush my argument?

As Dr. Clyde Winters has proven, they are really trying to rewrite history with genetics, and exclude all other forms of evidence in the discussion. I wasn't having any of that, and they didn't know what to do!  They sent in their racist into the thread to bait me into a shit throwing contest, and from their they used it as an excuse to close my thread and ban me. Beyoku was there too. He was there cooning, in the form of liking the comments of white folks pretending to be Africans. If I wasn't on my work computer I would link you to every one of those debates on those white supremacist websites. 

Regardless, for over half a decade I have adamantly invited those who dispute my argument of this diffusion to my own thread here on Egyptsearch. 

egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

None of the white supremacist would dare do that, especially given that they don't have special administrative powers to censor their ass whooping. None of the coons from those sites have stepped to the plate as challenged. I've long invited Beyoku to come and debate, but he has yet to do so. He has a troll/puppet account on this site where he randomly makes simple statements like "you lost the debates on those other sites". Then when I link to the thread's in question, and ask for him to specify which posters got my goat, he runs away, because he's full of shit in that regard. Hell YOU'VE tried to throw rocks on the road to this revelation early on in various threads, from the peopling of West Africa, to a few others, and you bowed out of those discussions. You've even resorted to opening up closed threads, to make your rebuttals to me with your admin privileges...yeah I ain't forgot! This argument is solid to the core. There are no chinks in the armor. Almost every week there is more evidence added to my thread. The ancient Cameroonian DNA findings of the other week, further sealed the deal on the argument! Y'all don't know how to piece this evidence together like I do. Y'all are really waiting for a ground breaking DNA study that will overhaul the Smithsonian's billion dollar invested narrative from the same people who adhere to the Smithsonian, and that's not going to happen. The fact that no media coverage was given to the Ramses III E1b1a findings in almost a decade of it's release, should be your que to make this truth come out on our own...BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE THIS TO US, WE MUST TAKE IT!  And tell them to kiss our asses while we do it.

Even the part with the aquiline noses is a giant hole right away. West Africans don't need Egyptians or Ethiopians to have aquiline noses. Right off the bat the argument 
gives them an easy score- Strike 1. As folk here have told you some years back, you need to tighten up

some of these things.

OK....

Asante said - "One must asked....WHY IN THE HELL ARE SO MANY BLACKS ON EGYPTSEARCH SO SCARED TO MOVE ON THE BOLDED STATEMENTS?"

Now what was in the bold statement of the exert Zaharan?

"personal library and his own direct knowledge of the Ashantis, wrote An Essay on the

Superstitions, Customs, and Arts, Common to the Ancient Egyptians, Abyssinians, and Ashantees, in

which he argued that Egyptian civilization was diffused via Ethiopia **to the West Coast

of Africa.**
"

That's a strawman Zaharan. You don't have to resort to logical fallacies, just tell the truth. Is reading comprehension an issue with you, or are you so eager to naysay and finger wag against "extreme Afrocentrism" that you're missing the actual point? Regardless you need to sit the Hell down for this gross misrepresentation of my argument. 

[djoser-xyyman]

Nice work Asante...

AGREED!!!


"..BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE THIS TO US, WE MUST TAKE IT! "



Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2715/black-white-skull-transforming-ancient?page=1#ixzz6DghbtQP7

[zarahan]

Asante said:


Oh, here's a comparison that I myself found between ancient Kemetic traditional art and recent West African art;

"Notice how both the Kemetic pharaoh and Dahomey king are depicted as giant rulers, and have one hand sticking out while being served by smaller humans. More proof of this diffusion of people and culture from the Hapi Valley into interior regions of Africa is shown in the appearance of the ancient Kemetic spiritual system being shown in these other African cultures. The Osirian crock and flail were sported by the kings of inner Africa. Notice that the Dahomey king holds the traditional Osirion Crock while the ancient Kemetic figure holds the Flail. It's also note worthy...that the color scheme of the Dahomey (Nigeria) are not depicting "black skinned" people despite us knowing that these people were/are still melaninated "black" Africans."

Why in Hell would a non Kemetyu people be utilizing the Osirian Crock and Flail insignia to indicate royalty, along with other details in their respective paintings almost matching verbatim? This a small sample of overlapping cultural affinities that are seen between ancient Kemet and Niger Congo speakers (West African in this example) that are found in no other groups on Earth.


OK, but you asserted that the similarities came from Egypt, through Ethiopia
down to West Africa- in the above case, Dahomey. None of that you say above’\
supports your case, Did the Osirian crock first go to Ethiopia, after which
it gets to Dahomey? You present no credible evidence.


The Pharonic reamins of Meroe were mummified;

"we know that the pyramid proper, a sun symbol, which contains or surmounts the burial vault where the royal mummy lay, is but one element of the complex constituting the complete royal burial place."

Mummy of the Obi Ijeh of Idumuoghu,Ibusa, Nigeria From Oscar Pfouma "Histoire culturelle de l'Afrique Noire

Again, Fine. But you specifically affirmed that the sequence was
Kemet => Ethiopia => West Africa.

All you show is that (a) Meroe mummified their dead like Kemet, and Nigeria has
some mummification. Fine. But where is the sequence Kemet=>Ethiopia =>West Africa?
So far you have not presented any credible evidence on this.


Well if a direct diffusion from the Hapi Valley is being argued, wouldn't the period 8-9,000 years prior to dynastic civilization be somewhat irrelevant to my specific argument? While the Hapi Valley and certain West African populace certainly had a common origin in the ancient Sahara prior to the formulation of dynastic civilization, the cultures of the latter is what is specifically being argued. Your demands for evidence in that regard are therefore irrelevant question.

No it is not irrelevant at all. You keep affirming that ancient Egyptian civilization
flowed from Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa.

I keep asking for credible evidence and so far, you have presented none.


Wouldn't ancient and modern DNA be credible Zaharan?

It would, if it is part of a logical, clear, evidentiary chain. But so far you
have not produced one.


How did M. Alfred know that the populations that carry the signature Niger-Congo paternal genetic marker E1b1a, have an ultimate origin in the Sudan, with influence in the vicinity of that region? It would only make sense if there was already a sufficient basis for the theory with archaeology alone. The hypothesized origins of Niger-Congo speakers by M. Alfred shows an almost absent frequency of the E1b1a unlike almost any other region of Africa. The genetic markers lack of distributions is almost identical to the area in which Alfred proposed the origins of the Niger-Congo speakers. This looks like a clear and complete migration from the homeland that has been proposed. It's like a puzzle piece.Not to mention that the main lines of the migration from Kemet in Alfred's map from the 80's below ironically point to the regions with the highest frequency of the Niger-Congo speakers signature genetic marker based on the Rose study from 2008.

I have no problem with the Niger-Congo languages, as part of a big umbrella stretching
from East to West at some time frame. Depending on the time frame and the languages
placed in the umbrella, an argument can certainly be made. I got no problem with that.
The problem is the Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa civilization chain.


We also know from Keita, that the because of the remnants of E1b1a in areas not affected by the deadend theory of the "Bantu Migration from Cameroon" cannot be explained by the Bantu migration. This study was 8 “ But their presence in the Nile Valley and in other Non-Bantu speakers Can Not be explained in this way. E-M2 distribution is probably explained by their presence in the populations of the “Early Holocene Sahara”, Who went on to people the Nile Valley in The mid-Holocene era (12,000 B.P.) according to Hassan (1988). Keita and Boyce; Boyce, A. J. (Anthony J.) (2005). "Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation".

Sure. No problem with this- they are part of the great Saharan train or range.
But again Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa. What you say above does not
support this.


For starters, the term "Ethiopia" is being used in the context of "Nubia" proper not modern country who was given the name within our parents lifetime.

OK, well if you are considering “Ethiopia” to be “Nubia” you should define
this from the outset, which is why I oft say people need to be precise in their
definitions, and to qualify statements as needed by the available evidence. Lack
of precision enables detractors to score easy points without breaking a sweat.


When the Persians invaded Kemet, there was a mass migration of the Niger-Congo speaking (and Nilo-Saharan, and possibly some Cushitic speakers) populace from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia ("Ethiopia"). From Napata into Mereo. The sudden prominence of Mereotic Kush was the direct result of this diffusion of a large percentage of the refugees from original Kemetyu populace resettling further up the Hapi.

OK, but how does this support a migration from that area to West Africa re civilization?
The Persians invaded circa 500 BC, but West African civilization was already
well underway before that date, as we have seen in Dharr Tchitt, and other sites,
not to mention ironworking in West Africa, which did not have to wait until
refugees fleeing the Persians turned West.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_metallurgy_in_Africa

Here again, your evidence needs to be tightened up.



"Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan state that Akans originated from ancient Ghana. The Akan people migrated from the north through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms.

Sure, but Diop refers to oral legends, which though they can be useful background
do not clearly provide evidence of any mass migration from Nubia to West Africa.


My thread's prototype is still on Forum Biodiversity, and Theapricity. I tested my theory on those simps, and they all ducked their tails between their legs and ran away like cowards. Everyone from Beyoku to the other coons on the site made their little comments, but no serious rebuttal. Hell I've even stated, that BEYOKU was the one who went rogue one day, and pointed this out with some of the maps above. The issue with him, was that he was afraid to stand on it.

Sure, he will not stand on it because some of what you are claiming has
multiple problems that are hard to defend, like the “fleeing blacks” coming
from Nubia to give West Africa civilization. The theory and related variants
has huge holes in it, or arguments made can easily be portrayed as such
and exploited by opponents. As for the aforementioned Hangers-out on Anthroscape.,
they could have done a lot more to build up the Africana database side of the house,
but most of their energy and research goes to contribute to and build by the racialist
Anthro sites. There is also a “holier than thou- we too good to share or deal with
y’all other negroes” mentality sometimes visible. Contrast with the generous sharing
of Djoser-XYZ man, Takuri, Anansi, Troll Patrol, Myra Wysinger, Dana etc.. that has helped
build the common base.


I beat one dude's ass so bad in the discussion, that after Ellias banned my third account (lol) he felt that he had to delete the entire debate from the thread (and there was no profanity). The same thing on Anthroscape and Historum. The same thing over on Anthrogencia, which is the "new" covertly racist "genetic' forum. They resorted to these cowardly tactics when I created a thread to present the 2018 study from SOY Keita about a year and a half ago. Who are these people who you think will crush my argument?

Sure, and while I am critical of some of your arguments, I commend you
for taking them on. As most of us have learned who have fought in the trenches,
they will always ”ban” you or try to freeze you out when they are losing, or have
no real reply.


Regardless, for over half a decade I have adamantly invited those who dispute my argument of this diffusion to my own thread here on Egyptsearch.
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

But some of your arguments have been disputed in multiple threads, and the same
theme keeps cropping up- namely that your arguments need to be tightened up or
detractors will have a field day. Here for example is what I said in debate with you back in 2014:

“Fair enough but you have shifted from your opening definition of
"almost all" having broad noses and thick lips, and even in the
pic gallery you show, several do not have those stereotypical
features. Also the map you show has folks with a wide range of
diversity- including millions of people with narrow noses and thin
lips. Basically you have qualified your opener, and that is fine.
Your comparison now is to a vast range of AFRICANS from West to
East to South Africa- ALL "true" representatives of the diversity
that is Africa. OK with me, I only objected to sweeping statements
that seemed to set up easy scores for the enemies of African
bio-history, based on their bogus "true negro" stereotype.
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1598/pharaohs-ancient-Kemet

I am basically saying the same thing. Tighten up obvious holes, make the
chain of reasoning/data clear, use more precise definitions, bolster with good
evidence, qualify sweeping statements into the more defensible.

[asante]

Feb 11, 2020 23:27:45 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Asante said:


Oh, here's a comparison that I myself found between ancient Kemetic traditional art and recent West African art;

"Notice how both the Kemetic pharaoh and Dahomey king are depicted as giant rulers, and have one hand sticking out while being served by smaller humans. More proof of this diffusion of people and culture from the Hapi Valley into interior regions of Africa is shown in the appearance of the ancient Kemetic spiritual system being shown in these other African cultures. The Osirian crock and flail were sported by the kings of inner Africa. Notice that the Dahomey king holds the traditional Osirion Crock while the ancient Kemetic figure holds the Flail. It's also note worthy...that the color scheme of the Dahomey (Nigeria) are not depicting "black skinned" people despite us knowing that these people were/are still melaninated "black" Africans."

Why in Hell would a non Kemetyu people be utilizing the Osirian Crock and Flail insignia to indicate royalty, along with other details in their respective paintings almost matching verbatim? This a small sample of overlapping cultural affinities that are seen between ancient Kemet and Niger Congo speakers (West African in this example) that are found in no other groups on Earth.

OK, but you asserted that the similarities came from Egypt, through Ethiopia
down to West Africa- in the above case, Dahomey. None of that you say above’\

supports your case, Did the Osirian crock first go to Ethiopia

To add context to this once again "Ethiopia" is in reference to Nubia not the modern nation.

Now..Yes that is the same migration path that Chancellor Williams and M. Alfred assert through their own lines of evidence. It was a southward retreat following political turmoil from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia (Napata - Meroe). Now this is where you sound a little slow in self thinking Zaharan....From your own database;

 

"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 ) 

If we know that the basis of Pharonic civilization as well as the story of Ausar & Asset (Osiris and Isis) originated in Nubia prior to the transference of it north into what was referred as Upper Kemet, then why would you possibly need evidence of the Osirian traditions being practiced in it's original homeland? Did they somehow lose that tradition? That wouldn't make sense at all given the intentions and actions of the 25th "Nubian" dynasty. Make it make sense Zaharan! 

Again just like the other dominant tropical West African nation state's oral traditions mentioned (Akan & Yoruba), and as the aforementioned scholars assert that the initial migratory region to escape political strife in Kemet was Meroe, the Fon (Dahomey) people also made their stop in Meroe prior to their Westward expansion. 

"Situated in western Africa, the Fon kingdom of Dahomey (or Abomey in its earliest years) was formed by a mixture of various local ethnic groups on the Abomey plain. The tribal groups, possibly forced to move due to the slave trade, coalesced around a highly centralised, strict military culture which was aimed at securing and eventually expanding the borders of the small kingdom. It also practised human sacrifice in large numbers and traded captives to the slave traders who prospered along its coastline, which was part of the notorious Slave Coast. 

The kingdom covered the southern third of the modern republic of Benin, and it bore its name until 1975, when it was neutrally renamed the republic of Benin to appease the large number of ethnic groups which formed part of the relatively new state. Dahomey bore no relation to the Benin empire. It was the kingdom of the Fon people, one of the groups which formed the modern Benin state. 

When the Nubians conquered Meroë at the start of the sixth century BC, some of the Meroë fled west and ended up establishing themselves in what is now Nigeria and Benin. This is known because the priesthood in these countries uses technical words which are Semitic. One of these is 'Al' as a prefix, used in the names of their spirits (angels). The word also lent itself to the name of the medieval state of Alodia. (Additional information by Edward Dawson.)"

link 

Not only do we have validation of a specific Northeastern African (particularly Nubian-Kemetic) post-mortem ceremonial practice being utilized in recent West Africa, but we also have linguistic evidence to verify the Fon's noted route and settlement in Mereo. The presence of Semitic words coming from the war/interaction with the Axumite empire (as noted by C. Williams...) can better be explained by what other theory Zaharan? 

, after which it gets to Dahomey? You present no credible evidence.

Thus far we have overlapping cultural affinities, linguistic evidence, and a correlating oral tradition of every group mentioned. You're either blind or full of it. 

Well if a direct diffusion from the Hapi Valley is being argued, wouldn't the period 8-9,000 years prior to dynastic civilization be somewhat irrelevant to my specific argument? While the Hapi Valley and certain West African populace certainly had a common origin in the ancient Sahara prior to the formulation of dynastic civilization, the cultures of the latter is what is specifically being argued. Your demands for evidence in that regard are therefore irrelevant question.

No it is not irrelevant at all. You keep affirming that ancient Egyptian civilization
flowed from Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa.

I keep asking for credible evidence and so far, you have presented none.

Zaharan...If the argument is that a dispersal of black Africans, and particularly "Niger-Congo" and Nilo Saharan speakers from the Sudan/"aEthiopian"/Nubia following an initial southward move under a "refugee" status from Kemet, then what in the Hell does the wet period of the Sahara  8-9k years prior have to do with this argument? These Africans in Northeastern Africa are the result of that drying phase thousands upon thousands of years prior to that point (around 500 BC). Your naysaying response lacks substance, and has nothing but repetitive place fillers. 

Wouldn't ancient and modern DNA be credible Zaharan?

It would, if it is part of a logical, clear, evidentiary chain. But so far you
have not produced one.

Linguistic, archaeological, osteological, cultural, evidence has been provided to handsomely compliment the genetic evidence. Not to mention that the oral traditions of the three aforementioned groups in West Africa all have the same story of a mass migration from Hapi Valley civilization. You denying the legitimacy of this evidence makes you look like you're full of shit Zaharan. You're waiting on some sort of Westernized confirmation, and are petrified of "putting yourself out there". You're trying to stop others (myself) from moving ahead, not through counter evidence of an opposing theory, but rather naysaying scariness. 

I have no problem with the Niger-Congo languages, as part of a big umbrella stretching
from East to West at some time frame. Depending on the time frame and the languages
placed in the umbrella, an argument can certainly be made. I got no problem with that.
The problem is the Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa civilization chain.

Evidence has been provided for every group mentioned, that again correlates with the narrative told by accomplished scholar  C. Williams and M. Alfred. To reiterate this is not a "theory" that I pulled out of my ass, nor did the aforementioned create the theory themselves. The Eurocentric crowd has admitted for centuries through their own evidence and reasoning (that has been suppressed since 1842) that this migration is the case. Your entire discontent with this is that there is no Oxford of Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt confirming this truth. The reason why you fail in that regard is because you are committing a logical fallacy, which is appealing to authority. The lack of contemporary Western scholars supporting this is your entire gripe with this assertion. The fact that the indigenous African equivalent of peer reviewed scholarship in the form of oral tradition, and the correlation of multiple neighboring groups stories of almost identical migratory patterns means nothing to you is case and point on how Eurocentric YOUR mindset. They (white Western Eurocentric scholars) are therefore YOUR Gods, and you're trying to spread that poisonous religion to the real ones. We ain't having it Zaharan. 

We also know from Keita, that the because of the remnants of E1b1a in areas not affected by the deadend theory of the "Bantu Migration from Cameroon" cannot be explained by the Bantu migration. This study was 8 “ But their presence in the Nile Valley and in other Non-Bantu speakers Can Not be explained in this way. E-M2 distribution is probably explained by their presence in the populations of the “Early Holocene Sahara”, Who went on to people the Nile Valley in The mid-Holocene era (12,000 B.P.) according to Hassan (1988). Keita and Boyce; Boyce, A. J. (Anthony J.) (2005). "Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation".

Sure. No problem with this- they are part of the great Saharan train or range.
But again Egypt => Ethiopia => West Africa. What you say above does not
support this.

The oldest tested human remain with E1b1a (and E1b1a affinities) thus far has been from dynastic Kemet - Fact
Today there is little to no E1b1a in that same Northeast African region - Fact
The oldest tested human remains from tropical West Africa (Cameroon) have no affinity with E1b1a carriers who now dominate the region- Fact
Ancient Meroetic aDNA has yet to be analyzed- Fact

While African aDNA is still limited in scope, from these facts we can strongly infer that a mass migration has taken place within the last 2,500 years to make E1b1a the dominant paternal lineage in tropical-Western Africa, and to make it almost absent in modern Northeastern Africa. Based on this set of facts based solely on aDNA and modern DNA this is the most plausible theory of how contemporary populations of Africa came into place. Unless you have a more plausible theory. If you do then please present it. 

For starters, the term "Ethiopia" is being used in the context of "Nubia" proper not modern country who was given the name within our parents lifetime.

OK, well if you are considering “Ethiopia” to be “Nubia” you should define
this from the outset, which is why I oft say people need to be precise in their
definitions, and to qualify statements as needed by the available evidence. Lack
of precision enables detractors to score easy points without breaking a sweat.

In the scope of these older European writers who themselves rely heavily on Greek interpretation this should be a given... The Greeks referred to what we now call "Nubia" as "Ethiopia". The modern nation that was referred to as "Abyssinia" during our parents and grandparents lifetime has relatively little ancient value alone. 

When the Persians invaded Kemet, there was a mass migration of the Niger-Congo speaking (and Nilo-Saharan, and possibly some Cushitic speakers) populace from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia ("Ethiopia"). From Napata into Mereo. The sudden prominence of Mereotic Kush was the direct result of this diffusion of a large percentage of the refugees from original Kemetyu populace resettling further up the Hapi.

OK, but how does this support a migration from that area to West Africa re civilization?
The Persians invaded circa 500 BC, but West African civilization was already
well underway before that date, as we have seen in Dharr Tchitt, and other sites,

Dhar Tichitt was a Mande site. I have stated that already in this thread! The Mande were the group of Niger-Congo speakers who split apart from the greater Niger-Congo speaking group, and headed into the Western Sahara with somewhat close affinity to the near by Nilo-Saharan speakers coming by way of Lake Mega Chad. This early split and mixture is why the Mande have a somewhat notable genetic divergence from other Niger-Congo speaking populations. Yes, they created the Dhar Tichitt states, and have dominated the region until this date. The mere presence of the Dhar Tichitt state in what should have been an isolated region of the World, is the evidence that I use to infer that the ancient Sahara had some major things poppin, and is the home of the early states of ancient civilizations.

not to mention ironworking in West Africa, which did not have to wait until
refugees fleeing the Persians turned West.

Political strife has been the reason noted for migrations from Kemet and Nubia correct? The oldest remnants of Nok culture according the "mainstream" sources is at around 1,500 BC. The Hyksos were not expelled from Kemet from the century of rule until 1580 BC. We are well within a chaotic period due to foreign incursion at the first glimpses of Nok civilization. Now what evidence do we have of any connection to Kemet?

Is that an Osirian crock strapped to the arm of the seated dignitary from the Nok civilization? The Met Museum where this was housed certainly linked it to Kemet in their original description of the art piece. 

Also....Didn't the Olmec civilization first appear around 1,500 BC as well? Hmmmm we know that the Kemetyu in the northern half of the civilization where the Hyksos stationed themselves were subjected to horrendous rule of the Asiatic-Kushitic set worshiping foreigners. It is likely that the subjugated Kemetyu simply said "F this" and sailed to the Americas, and stopped off the coast of Western Africa (Nigeria) along the way. We know that the currents from modern day Nigeria (Nok civilization) takes any ship voluntary or involuntary to the Mexican gulf coast where the Olmec civilization first took place. To reiterate, the formulative periods of both the Olmec and Nok civilizations occur during the turmoil brought onto the Kemetic civilization by the Hyksos. Later migrations of Hapi Valley Africans during later dates into these civilizations, further enhanced the civilizations to bring them to their zenith. You have to analyze evidence from all sources, and from that YOU MUST THINK FOR YOURSELF ZAHARAN!

Here again, your evidence needs to be tightened up. 

My argument is sound, so you once again can sit down!

Sure, but Diop refers to oral legends, which though they can be useful background

do not clearly provide evidence of any mass migration from Nubia to West Africa.

Again your dismissal of the oral traditions of the very Africans whose origins we are discussing is telling of your mind state. That's not to mention that supplemental evidence in the form of linguistics, cultural, and biological has already been presented verifying what these oral traditions state. 

Sure, he will not stand on it because some of what you are claiming has

multiple problems that are hard to defend, like the “fleeing blacks” coming

from Nubia to give West Africa civilization.

I've provided sufficient multidisciplinary evidence for this argument.  

The theory and related variants has huge holes in it,

Which ones have you successfully pointed out Zaharan? 

or arguments made can easily be portrayed as such and exploited by opponents.

Zaharan I have stepped to the most outspoken opponents of Africans having any thing to do with civilization, and everyone of them have been broken by the facts that support the origin theory of the Master teachers. I have listed the forums where I have came to them with this, and over the last half decade. Yet you have no examples of them giving me any real trouble. Beyoku has no examples of them giving me any trouble. The main opponents to this theory are the likes of you, and the scary "Negroes" on this forum and the old one. That means that there is no real oppositions to my evidence for this. 

As for the aforementioned Hangers-out on Anthroscape.,

they could have done a lot more to build up the Africana database side of the house, 

but most of their energy and research goes to contribute to and build by the racialist 

Anthro sites. There is also a “holier than thou- we too good to share or deal with

y’all other negroes” mentality sometimes visible.

I've made them all look stupid with my evidence. They're white ass kissers (including your buddy), and I've called them out as such. They do nothing, but project their racial own insecurities onto this. The mere fact that they are there to be the pets of white supremacist, and find common ground with people who wish to deny them and their people a prominent place in history speaks volumes about their sick mind. 

But some of your arguments have been disputed in multiple threads

You've yet to point out which one of their gripes I have not dealt with. 

I am basically saying the same thing. Tighten up obvious holes, make the

chain of reasoning/data clear, use more precise definitions, bolster with good 

evidence, qualify sweeping statements into the more defensible. 

I will say the same thing that Beyoku told you years ago....THINK FOR YOURSELF. Stop relying on quote mining alone to generate an argument. Stop projecting your hesitance to on thinking outside of the designated box onto those who do so, and do so with sufficient evidence. 

[zarahan]

Zaharan...If the argument is that a dispersal of black Africans, and particularly "Niger-Congo" and Nilo Saharan speakers from the Sudan/"aEthiopian"/Nubia following an initial southward move under a "refugee" status from Kemet, then what in the Hell does the wet period of the Sahara 8-9k years prior have to do with this argument? These Africans in Northeastern Africa are the result of that drying phase thousands upon thousands of years prior to that point (around 500 BC).

The problem is that (a) you can present no credible proof of this migration from Nubia.
And (b) you seem not understand that the major drying phase pf the Sahara was not around
500BC or AD, but had occurred thousands of years earlier. This is why I bring up the 8-9K yes
before. You are confusing what happened back then, with your claimed migration
from Nubia, circa 500BC. Here again, you make an elementary error, giving opponents
an easy score.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara_pump_theory


Your naysaying response lacks substance, and has nothing but repetitive place fillers.

I have to be repetitive because (a) your evidence is thin, and (b) you keep making
elementary errors, as shown above.


Linguistic, archaeological, osteological, cultural, evidence has been provided to handsomely compliment the genetic evidence. Not to mention that the oral traditions of the three aforementioned groups in West Africa all have the same story of a mass migration from Hapi Valley civilization.

But you have yet to present credible evidence of any mass migration circa 500AD or even BC.
What percent of Kemet’s population for example moved into Nubia when the Persians appeared?
You show various cultural, osteo population links etc, but you fail to demonstrate that they are
SPECIFICALLY relevant to the 500AD period. Some of these links are thousands of years old, some
when the Sahara was a greenbelt. But again, and I have to keep repeating this, you
have yet to credibly support your migration argument. You also seem to be confusing the
major drying phase with what happened 500BC- a glaring error. On top of that is a
big question mark about the “fleeing negroes” 500AD mass migration.


You denying the legitimacy of this evidence makes you look like you're full of shit Zaharan. You're waiting on some sort of Westernized confirmation, and are petrified of "putting yourself out there". You're trying to stop others (myself) from moving ahead, not through counter evidence of an opposing theory, but rather naysaying scariness.

Laughable tripe. But understandable, because so far you have only demonstrated
shaky arguments, even though you have had a full database at your fingertips for over
7 years.


Evidence has been provided for every group mentioned, that again correlates with the narrative told by accomplished scholar C. Williams and M. Alfred. To reiterate this is not a "theory" that I pulled out of my ass, nor did the aforementioned create the theory themselves.

Chancellor Williams is a well known figure- I give him respect. But some of his
arguments are dated to the early 1970s- such as the fleeing negro migration approach.
His “mulatto” model for Kemet, where much breaks down into 3 categories-
black- white- mulatto is typical of the racial typologies of the1960s and 1970s,
but some parts are incompatible with what we now know about African diversity.
You keep blindly following this dated scheme which is why you make another
elementary mistake pointed out above, where things like aquiline noses are seen
as the product of some sort of outside migration. Similar things were pointed out to
you 6 years ago. There is a way to update the Chancellor while preserving key elements
of his arguments but you have not grasped how to do it, despite much info in place.



The Eurocentric crowd has admitted for centuries through their own evidence and reasoning (that has been suppressed since 1842) that this migration is the case. Your entire discontent with this is that there is no Oxford of Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt confirming this truth. The reason why you fail in that regard is because you are committing a logical fallacy, which is appealing to authority. The lack of contemporary Western scholars supporting this is your entire gripe with this assertion,, They (white Western Eurocentric scholars) are therefore YOUR Gods, and you're trying to spread that poisonous religion to the real ones. We ain't having it Zaharan.

Curiously, you yourself quote heavily from white Eurocentric scholars when it suits your
particular pet theory. When it doesn’t then curiously, the white scholars become all evil...
What you don’t seem to grasp is that knowledge moves on, it is not stuck in the1970s.
Rather than upgrade your knowledge with modern data you keep falling into outmoded models
and rookie mistakes. The problem is not African oral tradition, it is how used. Oral tradition
can be contradictory. The Asante for example hold that they sprung up from a hole in the ground,
in the local region, contradicting your “fleeing negroes from the East” migration model. But even
this contradiction is contradicted by another which places the beginnings of the people further south,
in Adanse – the place where "God created the world". Both of these versions contradict the “refugees
fleeing Nubia” model. Another African scholar Adu Boahen’s analyses hold that that based on linguistic
and oral traditions and on archaeological evidence, the Akan might have emerged in the Chad-Benue
region, the areas around the Lower Volta and middle Niger, the region between the Comoe and the
Black Volta and the Pra River and Ofin River basin.
www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199846733/obo-9780199846733-0166.xml

And the same “people from the East” oral traditions have been used by Eurocentric’s to push old and
new versions of “Hamitic” migrations from the East. You cherry-pick one set of oral narratives that
you think makes your case, but there are other traditions, as well as linguistic analyses that contradict
your “Afrocentric” theory.


While African aDNA is still limited in scope, from these facts we can strongly infer that a mass migration has taken place within the last 2,500 years to make E1b1a the dominant paternal lineage in tropical-Western Africa, and to make it almost absent in modern Northeastern Africa. Based on this set of facts based solely on aDNA and modern DNA this is the most plausible theory of how contemporary populations of Africa came into place.

OK but this STILL doesn’t support your “fleeing negroes theory” re mass migration
to West Africa from Nubia 500AD.



When the Persians invaded Kemet, there was a mass migration of the Niger-Congo speaking (and Nilo-Saharan, and possibly some Cushitic speakers) populace from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia ("Ethiopia"). From Napata into Mereo. The sudden prominence of Mereotic Kush was the direct result of this diffusion of a large percentage of the refugees from original Kemetyu populace resettling further up the Hapi.

Looking again at this, I would have to disagree. Kush did not “suddenly” become
prominent. It was a strong kingdom in its own right, and almost overran Egypt in
the 17th dynasty, long before the 25th Dynasty appeared.


In addition you merely assert a migration but again, little credible evidence to put
on the table. What percent of Kemet’s population “fled” to Nubia? Re Persians,
they did defeat the Egyptians but the Persians themselves were stalemated in
in battle by the Nubians, whose fighting traditions for millennia, put them in a
good position to do so. They did not “suddenly” become prominent. They simply
and not surprisingly became the major indigenous power in the Nile Valley as part
of the natural evolution of the rise and fall of regional powers like Egypt. Kush/Nubia was
already a major playa when the Persians showed up.


The oldest remnants of Nok culture according the "mainstream" sources is at around 1,500 BC. The Hyksos were not expelled from Kemet from the century of rule until 1580 BC. We are well within a chaotic period due to foreign incursion at the first glimpses of Nok civilization. Now what evidence do we have of any connection to Kemet?

That’s a question you still have to answer. Just because NOK appears around
the same time as the Hyskos does not create a direct line between the Hyskos,
”fleeing” negro refugees and the appearance of the Nok in West Africa. All
you have here is sheer simplistic speculation. Here again is the major weakness- your
insistence on trying to shoehorn significant West African civilization developments
into some kind of Egyptian/Nile Valley shoe. The same “mainstream” reference
you mentions places the origin of the Nok culture to the North, in Mali not from
any refugees from the Nile Valley. Quote:

The Nok Culture is part of these shifts in the second millennium BC, representing a version which occurred in the moist Guinea savanna of central Nigeria. At almost all Nok sites, charred grains of the cultivated form of millet have been found. According to radiocarbon measurements, some date from approximately 1500 BC. Thus the first farmers cultivating millet appear here at roughly the same time as they appear in Mauritania, Mali, Ghana, and the Chad Basin. So far, no signs of a local predecessor to the Nok Culture have been found. We thus suspect that there are none and that the Nok farmers, as did the farmers in the other examples, immigrated from the North or at least were at some point in their history somehow connected with the areas further north. One indication for a northern origin of the Nok people is the type of millet they cultivated (Pennisetum glaucum), which is a typical plant of the Sahel.
-- Peter Breunig. Nok: African Sculpture in Archaeological Context. P 35

Once again, your simplistic speculation simply has nothing credible to back it up.


The Met Museum where this was housed certainly linked it to Kemet in their original description of the art piece.

Sure but that does not mean the art traveled from Kemet to Nigeria.
Better supported models point rather to a common Saharan base without
needing any “fleeing negroes from Nubia.”


Also....Didn't the Olmec civilization first appear around 1,500 BC as well? Hmmmm we know that the Kemetyu in the northern half of the civilization where the Hyksos stationed themselves were subjected to horrendous rule of the Asiatic-Kushitic set worshiping foreigners. It is likely that the subjugated Kemetyu simply said "F this" and sailed to the Americas, and stopped off the coast of Western Africa (Nigeria) along the way.

LOL, don’t tell me, Those evil Hyskos appeared and all of a sudden we
got “fleeing” Negro elements springing up all over? Hell, even bellying up
to the beaches of Mexico? ROTLF..


Which ones have you successfully pointed out Zaharan?

As already shown there are multiple holes, weak logic, weak evidence
and elementary mistakes in many of your arguments..


Yet you have no examples of them giving me any real trouble. Beyoku has no examples of them giving me any trouble. The main opponents to this theory are the likes of you, and the scary "Negroes" on this forum and the old one. That means that there is no real oppositions to my evidence for this.

As regards “scary” Negores you simply do not know what you are talking about.
When you first appeared you were very uncertain about much understanding the material.
It is only because we have broken it down for ease of use that you can manage, and
even then, judging by the many blunders and elementary mistakes you keep
making, not to mention weak logic, you lack clear understanding. The only reason you
survive on those other forums is because you copy and paste the hard data harvested
by the veterans here over many years. You keep declaring all these victories in these
other places but by your own admission, you say Beyoku and his boys were showing
you up. This would not be the case of you understood key parts of the evidence or the
logic behind such, rather than simply copy and paste.

You lack the deep grasp of the material else you would not be making so many mistakes.
Here for example is another elementary mistake:

Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms.

Again, no credible evidence. The Akan people were in place in West Africa
long before 500 AD, without needing any scattered migrants from Nubia. All you
have presented is sheer speculation, once again, allowing for easy scores by
Eurocentrics and detractors like Beyoku.

And yet another:

he found among the higher class of Ashantis the aquiline nose and thin lips of the modern Copts and ancient Egyptians

West Africans don't need Egyptians or Ethiopians to have aquiline noses.
Right off the bat the argument gives opponents an easy score


I will say the same thing that Beyoku told you years ago....THINK FOR YOURSELF. Stop relying on quote mining alone to generate an argument. Stop projecting your hesitance to on thinking outside of the designated box onto those who do so, and do so with sufficient evidence.

LOL Beyoku never told me any such thing. In fact the criticism I often hear
is that I am too “Afrocentric” and too aggressive in taking on assorted racists,
racialists, conservatives, libertarians etc. for which I have received my own set
of “bans” freeze outs etc.

Much of the above was covered 6 years ago in 2014. We discussed the weaknesses in
your claims, and showed you how to construct better, more defensible arguments
using a flexible structure rather than sweeping statements and absolutist claims. But
alas, so far you have not learned enough, else you would not be making so many
elementary mistakes.

Study well the example of DjoserXYZ, Takuri and others and see how they construct
their arguments and present evidence. You cannot score easy points on them at all.
Note especially how Takuri is able to take the classic writings of the old masters and
tweak them with modern info, while preserving core elements.

But anyway, all, including myself should update their knowledge, as Diop himself urges.
This means not hewing slavishly to outmoded “more Afrocentric than thou” models,
but to be willing to assimilate new evidence. Diop speaks of seeing the weaknesses in
our own proofs. This has to be done to be a true disciple of the master. Finally
keep in mind forum decorum, as you are veering into wild personal attacks. You
have been warned about this before in dealing with criticism.

[asante]

Feb 13, 2020 0:14:18 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Zaharan...If the argument is that a dispersal of black Africans, and particularly "Niger-Congo" and Nilo Saharan speakers from the Sudan/"aEthiopian"/Nubia following an initial southward move under a "refugee" status from Kemet, then what in the Hell does the wet period of the Sahara 8-9k years prior have to do with this argument? These Africans in Northeastern Africa are the result of that drying phase thousands upon thousands of years prior to that point (around 500 BC).

The problem is that (a) you can present no credible proof of this migration from Nubia.

Again what you consider "credible"/sacred is built almost entirely on contemporary Western sources, while you discard African oral traditions. You sound like those whites on the pseudo science anthro forums who essentially gain an identity strictly through genetic affirmation. C.A. Diop has noted that the strongest evidence of the migration of the Kemetyu is in the daily lives and cultures of the Africans who now reside south of the Sahara. In any case, the migration from Kemet into Nubia around the 6th century BC is an event that was recorded not only through African oral tradition, but also through Greek written records;

Travels in Ethiopia, Above the Second Cataract of the Nile: Exhibiting the State of that Country, and Its Various Inhabitants, Under the Dominion of Mohammed Ali; and Illustrating the Antiquities, Arts, and History of the Ancient Kingdom of Meroe

So we have written records of ancient Greek scholars noting that a quarter million Kemetyu soldiers migrated into "Ethiopia" around the 6th century BC, as a result of political strife. The indigenous populace, which was stationed in the south was discontent with preferable treatment that the Greek mercenaries were given under Psamtik II. We know that these soldiers were not all single men, and likely had families, which could easily triple (or more) the actual number of those who migrated into Nubia/"aEthiopian".

From the genetic side of the game, we do not aDNA from Nubia at this period. We do however have some Cushitic speaking populations who formed the African federation of Kemet such as the Somalis and Oromo. Why do I proclaim that the Oromo were apart of the ancient Kemetyu populace? Because their name (like several noted Niger-Congo speaking groups) has literal translative meaning in Medu Neter;

"Oromo 

Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people in the Oromo language 

Orma ; Oromo - the name of a god "

The Oromo and Somalis (who also have strong cultural affinity to the ancient civilizaitons) carry V-32, which is a subclade that formulated in southern Kemet following the initial northward migration of the parent M-35 into Kemet much earlier. This subclade, which originated in Kemet migrated south into the Horn and Kenya. 

The groups with the largest share are the Oromo, Somalis, and Borana. With regard to Niger-Congo and Nilo Saharan speaking populations, they did not settle permanently in the Horn and Northeastern Africa (except for South Sudan and pockets of the Sudan with regard to the Nilo Saharans) in general like the Cushitic speaking populations. Niger-Congo speakers  In summary of this section, YES we do have strong evidence of a mass migration from Kemet into Meroe/"aEthiopia" during the 6th century BC via genetics.

To add more credibility to these ancient Greek historical notations, a recent discovery of a Kemetic boat matches the description that Herodotus laid out of it perfectly. Prior to this discovery it was for the most part disregarded by some scholars as hearsay. 

Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right – after 2,469 years

And (b) you seem not understand that the major drying phase pf the Sahara was not around
500BC or AD, but had occurred thousands of years earlier.

No Zaharan......you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I fully comprehend the evidence of the drying phase of the ancient Sahara, as evident by the entire section in my thread devoted to the effects that the desertification had on migratory patterns from the region. I never said that the drying phase(S) of the Sahara began or ended during that time, but instead thousands upon thousands of years prior. 

This is why I bring up the 8-9K yes
before. You are confusing 

Zaharan your reading comprehension skills are dull. No one is confused about this, but you! When I referenced the 8-9k period I was referencing the wet phase of the Sahara. YOU brought up the relevance of that time period with regard to the commonalities shared between the contemporary populations of Western Africa and Hapi Valley civilization. I pointed out that this was irrelevant, since the cultural overlaps are directly with Dynastic civilization. Dynastic civilization was a result of those various Africans migrating from the drying Sahara during multiple phases onto the Hapi, and in particularly Nubia. What evidence do we have of Dynastic civilization being present in the ancient Sahara thus far? That being said, the cultural overlapping shown between various "Sub Saharan" Africans and Dynastic Hapi Valley civilization had little to nothing directly to do with the migratory affects of the drying Sahara phases thousands upon thousands of years prior. What evidence do we have the Ausarian traditions which are observed in both the Northeastern Africa and West Africa being practiced in the ancient Sahara? What evidence do we have of the ankh in the ancient Sahara as it is seen in Western Africa and Northeastern Africa? 

I have to be repetitive because (a) your evidence is thin, and (b) you keep making
elementary errors, as shown above.

Zaharan, my evidence is far from thin. You simply do not know how to think for yourself. 

But you have yet to present credible evidence of any mass migration circa 500AD or even BC.
What percent of Kemet’s population for example moved into Nubia when the Persians appeared?

Firstly I never stated that the migration from Kemet into Nubia/"aEthiopia" occurred during 500 AD, and that is yet another testament to your horrendous reading comprehension skills. The source presented of the origin story of the Akan people (Dahomey Kingdom) stated that after the demise of the Nubian kingdom at the hands of the Semitic Axumite empire around 500 AD then there was a migration of their group into their contemporary West African location. Go BACK, SLOW DOWN and READ what the exert actually stated Zaharan. 

Now as far as Kemet's population change, Britannica notes that the population of Kemet was around 1-1.5 million people until around the Late Period. It was particularly around the Greco-Roman era that a huge population boom occurred, and this was concentrated obviously in the Delta. 

"Until the 1st millennium BCE, Egypt was not urbanized to the same extent as Mesopotamia. Instead, a few centres, notably Memphis and Thebes, attracted population and particularly the elite, while the rest of the people were relatively evenly spread over the land. The size of the population has been estimated as having risen from 1 to 1.5 million in the 3rd millennium BCE to perhaps twice that number in the late 2nd millennium and 1st millennium BCE. (Much higher levels of population were reached in Greco-Roman times.)"

Going by Herodotus, with a population of at least a quarter million soldiers their wife (or wives) and children migrating into "Ethiopia" that's easily over a million people leaving Kemet. We know that most of the disgruntled populace of Kemet, prior to the Late Period was stationed in the African south. Was there a demographic shift in Kemet during this late period time? Let's look at the osteological evidence;

 

Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404." 

and

Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

Of course there was a huge demographic shift correlating with this noted population exodus of the Africoid populace from southern Kemet. We have a population that was once centered in the southern region of Kemet, and were Africans to a miscegenated population centered in the north. Interesting part to note is that the Late Dynastic "Egyptians" did not mix in with the Greeks to gain their miscegenated features. The Aegean region from which they came was already mixed race. The mixed race looking Greco Roman Fayum portraits, represented your typical Greeks and Romans.

You show various cultural, osteo population links etc, but you fail to demonstrate that they are
SPECIFICALLY relevant to the 500AD period.

You created a counter argument based entirely on your horrible reading comprehension skills Zaharan. Slow down or sit down homie... 

Chancellor Williams is a well known figure- I give him respect. But some of his
arguments are dated to the early 1970s

True! His only real flaw was the claim that the population of Northern Kemet were "whites". C.A. Diop's most famous work "African Origins of Civilization" from 1974 came in, and corrected that notion, by pointing out that the populous of northern Kemet was more than likely Dravidians who now live in India. I happen to agree with the latter moreso in that regard. In the "Book of the Beginnings" by Gerald Masey, details that the real issue was not necessary the Tamahu, but the Set worshiping cult referred to as the "Sut-Typhonians". The wars with Nubia came about due to many of the states in Nubia being Set Worshippers (hence Ta -SETI).The Hyskok (a mixed race bunch) as pointed out by Dr Clyde Winters were referred to as the same name that the Kushites were given early in Dynastic Kemet, and also worshiped Set. For a non Hapi Valley nation to come in with a cult worshiping a Hapi Valley deity, could only mean that they had a history in the Hapi Valley. Perhaps Narmer's Set worshiping foes who were exiled during the initial unification. The Tamahu were regarded as the "people of set" or Devils, and were banned from Kemet until the Late period. Ancient Greeks themselves note that red headed whites were set on fire as a sacrifice the instant they were found in Kemet.  

What my intent is with my thread, is to validate that information with modern research. I can say that I am successfully doing so!

- such as the fleeing negro migration approach.

You keep trying to shame, the fact that the civilization was overwhelmed by a non black force. That is simply what happened Zaharan. It is what it is. You do understand that this is also noted in Nilo-Saharan oral traditions;

According to their own accounts, the Kalenjin believe that their ancestors aboriginal home was here in Kenya at a place called Tororo Hills in Eastern Uganda. From here they migrated to Misiri or Egypt, where they stayed for thousands of years, and then migrated back again to Kenya. Some remained in Egypt. Others are in Ethiopia, Sudan, Eritrea and many other places around the world. However not all Old Egyptians (Kalenjin) left for Egypt. The Ogiek or Dorobo who speak Kalenjin do not recall having migrated from elsewhere. They say that they have been living in Kenya since time immemorial. 

In 2001, I interviewed some oldmen as to why they left Egypt. They told me that they left Egypt after being attacked by a mysterious people called Kipyayamungeen. They said these people were white. (The term, "white", is a relative term, which means lighter skin color.) They say this was during the reign of Pharaoh Kipcheum. According to Dr Sambu, about 250,000 warriors left Egypt for East Africa as a result of this invasion. This event coincides with the first Persian invasion of Egypt, which occurred about 525 BCE. 

link

The original website has since been gone, but I did frequent it when this was first beginning to formulate my thread. 

None the less if these Africans avidly admit this to be the case then why are you trying to hard to say no to it? You have Nilo-Saharan speaking correlating the exact same migratory patterns, same dates, for the exact same reasons Zaharan. Yet you're trying to guard against this with some egotistical "we didn't lose to no white people" bullshit. You sound like a clown using that as a line of reasoning to disregard the migration from Kemet. 

Curiously, you yourself quote heavily from white Eurocentric scholars when it suits your
particular pet theory . When it doesn’t then curiously, the white scholars become all evil...

Zaharan, no one is claiming to have went out and done all of the field work. The most vehement Afrocentrics have always referenced the field work and findings of various white scholars, but have always taken their information and narrative with a grain of salt. C.A. Diop while he did conduct his own test (melanin dosage), most of "The African Origins of Civilization" is based on the research from the field work of white scholars. He is considered the father of mother Afrocentrism. This is where you show your inability to think Zaharan. No one has ever claimed that all whites are liars, but given the fact that the premiere Western institutions at one time came together to formulate and propagate a lie in the name of white supremacy....YOU'D HAVE TO BE A FOOL to take everything that they say at face value. 

XYZman certainly understands, and applies that to his contributions every week. 

What you don’t seem to grasp is that knowledge moves on, it is not stuck in the 1970s. Rather than upgrade your knowledge with modern data you keep falling into outmoded models

and rookie mistakes.

Zaharan quit making talking out of your ass...if I did not understand that fact then I would have never felt the need to create this thread. Now while the basic concepts of both books are foundational truths, new research has come out to either support or upset those old theories. I have presented much evidence that supports those older theories, and case and point the findings of the Twa populations that dominated parts of Western-Central Africa that was noted by C.A. Diop back in the 70's (which you imply by virtue of age has been refuted). Today these white geneticist are trying to act like they didn't know that the long known (obviously as noted by C.A. Diop) obviously short statured skeletal remains were that of a Twa people not related to contemporary Niger-Congo speakers who dominate the region. They are trying to act like these "new" genetic test were the only way to verify or disprove what C.A. Diop. 

The Asante for example hold that they sprung up from a hole in the ground,
in the local region, contradicting your “fleeing negroes from the East” migration model. But even
this contradiction is contradicted by another which places the beginnings of the people further south,
in Adanse – the place where "God created the world".

Zaharan for one the Ashanti are an Akan sub group. The Akan have already been addressed in this discussion... None the less you are talking about the Ashanti who sport the Kemetic Ankh.. The same Ashanti who Europeans were acknowledging as having came from Kemet even half way into the 20th century?

www.jstor.org/stable/40456046?seq=1

You knew this though Zaharan! You knew that you could easily find arguments of them coming from Kemet, but you deliberately search for something contrarian. You ignore the arguments of them coming from Kemet (which your link is ironically in French), which would string all of these neighboring Niger-Congo speaking populations into one common place of origin. You look for something different while you are aware of yet ignore the glaring commonalities. 

Both of these versions contradict the “refugees
fleeing Nubia” model.

With the Ashanti being a sub group of the Akan, and the Akan's oral tradition has already been provided to you, you have confirmation of the "Nubia model";

"Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan state that Akans originated from ancient Ghana. The Akan people migrated from the north through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500 AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms. These kingdoms grew and around 750 AD the Ghana Empire was formed. The Empire lasted from 750 AD to 1200 AD and collapsed as a result of the introduction of Islam in Western Sudan, due to the zeal of the Muslims to impose their religion, their ancestors eventually left for Kong (i.e. present-day Ivory Coast). From Kong, they moved to Wam and then to Dormaa (both located in present-day Brong-Ahafo region). The movement from Kong was necessitated by the desire of the people to find suitable savannah conditions since they were not used to forest life. Around the 14th century, they moved from Dormaa South Eastwards to Twifo-Heman North West Cape Coast. This move was commercially motivated."  

Here are more sources supporting what has been written about the Akan's Hapi Valley Origins.  

www.academia.edu/3876359/AKAN_-_The_People_of_Ancient_Khanit_Akan_Land_-_Ancient_Nubia_Sudan_ 

unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000042627 

Is this not correlating to the migratory pattern of the Fon-Dahomey

"Situated in western Africa, the Fon kingdom of Dahomey (or Abomey in its earliest years) was formed by a mixture of various local ethnic groups on the Abomey plain. The tribal groups, possibly forced to move due to the slave trade, coalesced around a highly centralised, strict military culture which was aimed at securing and eventually expanding the borders of the small kingdom. It also practised human sacrifice in large numbers and traded captives to the slave traders who prospered along its coastline, which was part of the notorious Slave Coast.  

The kingdom covered the southern third of the modern republic of Benin, and it bore its name until 1975, when it was neutrally renamed the republic of Benin to appease the large number of ethnic groups which formed part of the relatively new state. Dahomey bore no relation to the Benin empire. It was the kingdom of the Fon people, one of the groups which formed the modern Benin state.  

When the Nubians conquered Meroë at the start of the sixth century BC, some of the Meroë fled west and ended up establishing themselves in what is now Nigeria and Benin. This is known because the priesthood in these countries uses technical words which are Semitic. One of these is 'Al' as a prefix, used in the names of their spirits (angels). The word also lent itself to the name of the medieval state of Alodia. (Additional information by Edward Dawson.)" 

Now let's compare that with the "Nubia model"

personal library and his own direct knowledge of the Ashantis, wrote An Essay on the

Superstitions, Customs, and Arts, Common to the Ancient Egyptians, Abyssinians, and Ashantees, in

which he argued that Egyptian civilization was diffused via Ethiopia **to the West Coast

of Africa.**

While it does show that not all Niger-Congo speakers were unified, it does correlate in events. The migration of the Kemetic refugees brought them to set up shop in Meroe, which brought about a conflict with the pre-existing populations of the region resulting in a migration from Meroe for the pre-existing population. Then Mereo was conquered by the Semitic Axumite empire about a thousand years later. As Dr. Chancellor Williams wrote in his book the distrust for one another make these migrations and settlements extremely difficult in the coming millenniums, which made it easy for Arabs and later Europeans to pick at and enslave the smaller unified groups. 

Another African scholar Adu Boahen’s analyses hold that that based on linguistic
and oral traditions and on archaeological evidence, the Akan might have emerged in the Chad-Benue
region, the areas around the Lower Volta and middle Niger, the region between the Comoe and the
Black Volta and the Pra River and Ofin River basin.

There is no conflict in the stories here Zaharan. You must stop trying to rush to nay saying, take your time and read slowly. Chad is along the Sahel belt, which was a main corridor of migrations from Nubia into West Africa. The exert above makes it clear that trading post;

"Nubia was scattered and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms"

Where is the conflict Zaharan? 

And the same “people from the East” oral traditions have been used by Eurocentric’s to push old and
new versions of “Hamitic” migrations from the East.

Does that worry you? What evidence do they have of this migration of Hamitic Africans into Western Africa? That is something that is easily flicked off. 

OK but this STILL doesn’t support your “fleeing negroes theory” re mass migration
to West Africa from Nubia 500AD.

How does it not? If aDNA from Northeastern Africa is ripe with E1b1a affinities, and those same E1b1a affinities are almost completely absent today, while being abundant in a place that recent aDNA proves was absent of during antiquity? What is a better explanation than a mass migration(s) Zaharan? You tell it. The Bantu migration from Cameroon has essentially been debunked, so these researchers are going to have to start from scratch. What do you think will be the basis of their new argument? 

When the Persians invaded Kemet, there was a mass migration of the Niger-Congo speaking (and Nilo-Saharan, and possibly some Cushitic speakers) populace from Upper Kemet into Lower Nubia ("Ethiopia"). From Napata into Mereo. The sudden prominence of Mereotic Kush was the direct result of this diffusion of a large percentage of the refugees from original Kemetyu populace resettling further up the Hapi.

Looking again at this, I would have to disagree. Kush did not “suddenly” become
prominent....they did not “suddenly” become prominent. They simply

and not surprisingly became the major indigenous power in the Nile Valley as part

of the natural evolution of the rise and fall of regional powers like Egypt...Kush/Nubia was

already a major playa when the Persians showed up.

Your own sources confirm that Meroe did not rise until the 6th century BC Zaharan;

"Kush conquered Egypt in the 8th century B.C., and ruled it for several decades. The Kushitic civilization flourished following the rise to ascendancy of Meroe as the capital city, starting in the 6th century B.C. The sophistication of Kush was reflected in its impressive stone architecture, irrigation systems, a large iron industry, its own script, and a well developed sense of nationhood. The first great empire of Africa south of the Sahara experienced its greatest development during the final three centuries B.C. Its collapse about A.D. 300 seems to have been precipitated by the decline of its agricultural base wing to soil exhaustation, and of its iron industry owing to the overexploitation of forests for charcoal." 

--Robert Stock (2012). Africa South of the Sahara, Third Edition: A Geographical Interpretation. 171 

There's that 6th century BC date again Zaharan. The same date given by the Kalejin, CA Diop and C. Williams for the reasons noted in the articles posted earlier. "Indigenous evolution"...sit down Zaharan. There was a migration of Kemites further into south who enhanced the Nubian civilization, and put it at the forefront of Africa for close to millennium.  

That’s a question you still have to answer. Just because NOK appears around
the same time as the Hyskos does not create a direct line between the Hyskos,

While the northern part of Kemet was sparsely populated early on in comparison to the southern regions, there still were pockets of Africans residing their. The Canaanite populations has steadily been encroaching on the region from the east, and as time went on to claimed sovereignty over northern Kemet. Those indigenous Kemetyu populations who lived there were subjected to horrendous rule at the hands of these Set worshiping Semitic-Nubians. Most of the Kemetyu who lived in the south were fine with the rule of the Hyksos in the north. Kamose and his sons were the ones who had to say Hell no, and push to unify the Africans to drive them out of the land after a century of their rule. Who was in the north therefore to protect the few Kemetyu who were stationed there? NOBODY. A migration from the region (and possibly the original non Semitic Africans of the neighboring Levant) was therefore necessary to escape persecution from a foreign force that no one reckoned with for close to a century. The Hyskos first showed up around the 18th century BC, which ironically correlates with the earliest Olmec formulative period.

"Immigration by Canaanite populations preceded the Hyksos. Canaanites first appeared in Egypt at the end of the 12th Dynasty c. 1800 BC or c. 1720 BC and established an independent realm in the eastern Nile Delta"

The Political Situation in Egypt During the Second Intermediate Period, C. 1800-1550 B.C.

"After the spread of maize agriculture in the Early Formative period (ca. 1800–1200 B.C.), people in the river valleys of Olman cooperated to construct monumental earthen platforms and mounds at the site of San Lorenzo, Veracruz."

www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/olmc/hd_olmc.htm

The undeniable African influence on the Olmec civilization has already been laid out by Ivan Van Sertima, Ronuku Rishidi, and Anthony Browder to name a few. The Nok empire's foundation was laid out during the same era 16th century BC. Again the overlapping cultural commonalities between these two civilizations with that of the Hapi Valley, correlating with a turbulent time in Hapi Valley history points to migrations from Kemet. 

The same “mainstream” reference
you mentions places the origin of the Nok culture to the North, in Mali not from
any refugees from the Nile Valley. Quote:

The Nok Culture is part of these shifts in the second millennium BC, representing a version which occurred in the moist Guinea savanna of central Nigeria. At almost all Nok sites, charred grains of the cultivated form of millet have been found. According to radiocarbon measurements, some date from approximately 1500 BC. Thus the first farmers cultivating millet appear here at roughly the same time as they appear in Mauritania, Mali, Ghana, and the Chad Basin.

The same millet's also spread into India at the same time as well. Eurocentrics tend to not attribute any out of Africa migrations to the spreading of this grain or anything really. 

The quote notes a spreading from the Western - Central Saharan region. We know that the people in that region who dominated were the Mande, and this was around the same time of Dhar Tichitt's ascendancy. Unless you're going to argue that the Nok empire was Mande then you really don't have a point here. The Mande as Dr. Winters has vehemently pointed out have connections from the region listed in the quote all the way into South and Eastern Asia. That includes India. We have DNA evidence of the Mande presence in Neolithic- Bronze age South Asia;

"We document a southward spread of genetic ancestry from the Eurasian Steppe, correlating with the archaeologically known expansion of pastoralist sites from the Steppe to Turan in the Middle Bronze Age (2300-1500 BCE)."

www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1

XYman and Tukler doing their own independent investigations into the findings of that study have confirmed back on the old Egyptsearch that there is a undeniable genetic correlation between the Mande and the Indus Valley. Perhaps if necessary XYman can reprint the data since the photo link of the program is no longer available. 

We see that the Nok empire stretched into the modern border of Niger, which is also in the central Sahara. So the utilization of that crop, should be of no major surprise.

Once again, your simplistic speculation simply has nothing credible to back it up.

Yeah you can go sit down on that one too. 

Sure but that does not mean the art traveled from Kemet to Nigeria.

You are so obtuse that you are denying the undeniable. Royalty depicted with the AUSARIAN Crock and Flail according to you has nothing to do with the ancient Nubian-Kemetic tradition of Ausar? Yeah the African civilization that suddenly sprang up during a turmoilous period in Kemet showing traditional insignia of the latter are completely unrelated. Just like this isn't;

Go sit down Zaharan!

As regards “scary” Negores you simply do not know what you are talking about.
When you first appeared you were very uncertain about much understanding the material.

Zaharan... When I first created my thread when it was still in prototype form, someone prominent over on Egyptsearch created an entire thread with a link to my own discussing how plausible this argument sounded. I was not even registered on old Egyptsearch at that time. Secondly I have been lurking in the shadows of the forum since 2006-2007 with direct invitation from prominent old Egyptsearch member Mansa Musa, which was a little bit before you started spamming in place of an argument over there. You talk about me, sir many were convinced that you were nothing more than a spam bot. Before you started to create your "database" threads you would spam the Hell out of a thread with menaingful thoughts and discussions without contributing a cent a insight into the discussion at hand. You would post half a page of repetitive most of the time irrelevant bullshit, because you seemed to be incapable of formulating an actual argument. 

It is only because we have broken it down for ease of use that you can manage, and
even then, judging by the many blunders and elementary mistakes you keep
making

Zaharan the only blunders in this discussion or any of the others have been made by yourself, as I've pointed out above. 

, not to mention weak logic, you lack clear understanding.

A citation from a white institution is the only thing that is not "weak" to you. You have a clear lack of abstract thought process that prevents from seeing the road that is covered by fallen leaves. You someone walking on what you perceive as an invisible road, and you keep expecting them to fall through a fall. No one has fallen Zaharan. You on the other hand are following the road that Eurocentrics made for you that lead to nowhere. 

The only reason you
survive on those other forums is because you copy and paste the hard data harvested
by the veterans here over many years

No Zaharan....If they have not already deleted that thread on Anthroscape from when you ass got banned then I can provide the link when I get home. You didn't come into that forum with anything resembling and argument. You came into that forum with the intention to do nothing more than spam sexually explicit graphics with irrelevant quotes in place of formulating an actual argument. They had every right to ban you ass. You made a fool out of yourself over there. Beyoku or "Four" on that site did a somewhat better job than he did on the others, because they were outright racist who he could not get into the good graces with. He was the rogue Afrocentric. You on the other hand were a clown.

Now yes, Zaharan I have thanked you for the time that you have spent quote mining. It's not everyone's job on the team to do that dirty work, but you do a fantastic job at it. You're not very good at thinking outside of those quotes, but you sure know how to mine them. I have given you thanks and props throughout my thread for making it easy for me to not have to search through google for those quotes, especially since Myra's old site is no longer available. That was my original go to, especially the link to all of Keita's studies up until that point. 

. You keep declaring all these victories in these
other places but by your own admission,

No, I claim victory through the normally cocky and eager opposition's silence to my argument. The guy on Historum named Chachibatches used to love debating me when I used to rely too much on your quotes in the late 2000's/ pre dnatribes 2010's. We would go blow for blow spamming quotes, which yours essentially served to elevate Hamitic-Cushitic Africans. He would strike back with false implications of those populations being fixed, or simply the obvious differentiation between them and us. I knew that I had to go another route. Sine I've made my arguments around Niger-Congo speakers, oh that boy rushes to get me banned everytime I create a new account. He is petrified of me, and says my name like Candyman. This same guy rushes to antagonize the coons who argue like you however. 

Not to mention to see that my opposition has to resort to banning and approving my post is a clear sign that I'm on the right track. I'm a danger to their ideology, and that is something that I am proud of.  

you say Beyoku and his boys were showing
you up.

I have provided links of Beyoku "and the boys" (Hamitic wannabees, misceginated Hispanics who don't know if they want to be black this day or not, and white swirlers who support watered down Afrocentrism) cooning it up. I have no desire to be in their good graces. 

Again, no credible evidence. The Akan people were in place in West Africa
long before 500 AD,

You have provided absolutely no evidence of that.

And yet another:

he found among the higher class of Ashantis the aquiline nose and thin lips of the modern Copts and ancient Egyptians

West Africans don't need Egyptians or Ethiopians to have aquiline noses.
Right off the bat the argument gives opponents an easy score

Zaharan...why tf are you using that exert from the article when in my first reply to you I told your lying ass that the bolded words in the exert were the main contention of my argument. I specifically reiterated that you in my reply, and you now try to resort to the same silly ass argument. How desperate can you be? Go sit tf down forever. 

I will say the same thing that Beyoku told you years ago....THINK FOR YOURSELF. Stop relying on quote mining alone to generate an argument. Stop projecting your hesitance to on thinking outside of the designated box onto those who do so, and do so with sufficient evidence.

LOL Beyoku never told me any such thing. In fact the criticism I often hear
is that I am too “Afrocentric” and too aggressive in taking on assorted racists,
racialists, conservatives, libertarians etc. for which I have received my own set
of “bans” freeze outs etc.

Zaharan yes the Hell he did! He clowned the shit out of you, and felt so good seeing that I was not the only one disgusted with your worthless quote spamming or quote bombing in every single Egyptsearch thread. If I need to I can go do a search of the old forum and provide receipts of the all of the threads where you've done that ridiculous shit. It was the most irrelevant act of the forum, but you felt that knowing your quotes would "save" us in these debates. Some were valuable in some cases, but 90% of the time that shit was irrelevant. 

Study well the example of DjoserXYZ, Takuri and others and see how they construct
their arguments and present evidence.

Ok.... did you not see where XYZ came into this discussion giving me props in my rebuttal to your naysaying nonsense? Y'all are cool, so he's not gonna call you out. You are however on some scary BS. Plain and simple. Stick to quote mining man. Do your job. I commend you for it. It's a valuable tool to these debates. 

[zarahan]

Again what you consider "credible"/sacred is built almost entirely on contemporary Western sources, while you discard African oral traditions.

Laughable nonsense. I point out that oral traditions while sometimes useful
can be contradictory, and show that several oral contradictions actually
CONTRADICT your “fleeing negroes” theory. And Diop did not rely merely
on oral tradition- he had other evidence to corroborate-some of which is
outdated and must be updated with modern scholarship. So far, you have produced
nothing credible as to the fleeing negroes circa 500AD. Some of what you claim
was already in place in West Africa before 500SD, and as stated the Nok culture
does not need arriving negroes from Nubia to teach them anything. The yalready had
all the basic foundations in place before 500AD.

Failing to support your claim, you then go on the dig an even deeper hole.
You say:

any case, the migration from Kemet into Nubia around the 6th century BC is an event that was recorded not only through African oral tradition, but also through Greek written records;

Again, no evidence posted s to this.

But even your migration to Nubia theory is open to question as demonstrated below.


Travels in Ethiopia, Above the Second Cataract of the Nile: Exhibiting the State of that Country, and Its Various Inhabitants, Under the Dominion of Mohammed Ali; and Illustrating the Antiquities, Arts, and History of the Ancient Kingdom of Meroe… So we have written records of ancient Greek scholars noting that a quarter million Kemetyu soldiers migrated into "Ethiopia" around the 6th century BC, as a result of political strife.

You have tripped yourself up with your own “supporting” reference..
“Travels in Ethiopia, Above the Second Cataract of the Nile..” is something written
in 1835 by a white European traveler. It does not in any way show what you keep
claiming- this migration to from Nubia to West Africa 500AD. You just shot yourself in
the foot with your own reference. It does not even give much detail on the claimed mass
migration to Meroe after the Persians took over. It is interesting that you are using an 1835
reference by “the white man” but avoid modern histories of Kush/Meroe. You avoid them
because they debunk what you are claiming.


The indigenous populace, which was stationed in the south was discontent with preferable treatment that the Greek mercenaries were given under Psamtik II. We know that these soldiers were not all single men, and likely had families, which could easily triple (or more) the actual number of those who migrated into Nubia/"aEthiopian".

Here you go again with only the thinnest speculation on your part, which is
why I keep asking for credible evidence. What you think is “likely” does not
qualify. You may HOPE it is so, but cannot yet produce any credible evidence.
You claim this move from Nubia to West Africa 500AD. Up above you mention
greek mercenaries and Psamtik etc but this is all irrelevant to the case, which
you are completely unable to support in any credible manner.


From the genetic side of the game, we do not aDNA from Nubia at this period. We do however have some Cushitic speaking populations who formed the African federation of Kemet such as the Somalis and Oromo (Oromo name translated in Medu Neter);

But again where is the credible proof of the 500AD migration on which
your entire claim hangs? You still can’t produce anything specific, but
keep going into all these side diversions. On top of that you claim that
there was some kind of “African federation of Kemet.” What credible
scholar supports this? Was there a treaty between Kemet, the Somalis
and Oromo to make up this “federation?” When did the “federation” start?
You seem to be led by wishful thinking rather than credible evidence.
You may WISH or HOPE for this mystical “federation” but it doesn’t exist.
Here again, you only dig a deep hole of mistakes.


In summary of this section, YES we do have strong evidence of a mass migration from Kemet into Meroe/"aEthiopia" during the 6th century BC.

Actually you don’t have strong evidence, and seem to have trouble
understanding basic historic timeline. QUOTE from a modern source:

"In the 27th Dynasty (525–359 bc) Egypt was conquered by Persians of the Achaemenid kingdom whose capital was at Persepolis, in what is now southwestern Iran. The 28th, 29th, and 30th Dynasties (404–343 bc) Hieroglyphs, Language, and Pharaonic Chronology 37 38 Hieroglyphs, Language, and Pharaonic Chronology were a period of successful rebellion against Persian control, and the 31st Dynasty (343– 332 bc) is when Persian control was briefly re-established in Egypt."
--K. Bard. 1999. Introduction to the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt. p37-38

A huge mass were not "fleeing" to Meroe. After the 500BC PErsian conquest Egypt actually
had revival periods where the Persians were rolled back. They returned for a brief period
343-332 BC but then were again ousted by the Greeks. SO where are you getting this
"mass population flight" to Meroe 500AD? Here again, you fail to carefully understand
the sources, and use up-to-date Material.


No Zaharan......you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I fully comprehend the evidence of the drying phase of the ancient Sahara. I never said that the drying phase(S) of the Sahara began or ended during that time, but instead thousands upon thousands of years prior.

Yes, and in that period there were many links based on a common African cultural
substratum. But you are attempting to shoehorn some of those linkages into a
mystical migration from Nubia to West Africa.


That being said, the cultural overlapping shown between various "Sub Saharan" Africans and Dynastic Hapi Valley civilization had little to nothing directly to do with the migratory affects of the drying Sahara phases thousands upon thousands of years prior.

Here again, you show you do not understand the detailed evidence compiled.
The Saharan period laid the foundation for numerous “sub-Saharan” cultural elements
found not only in Kemet but across numerous parts of Africa- including parts of the West.
Thus the divine kingship motif was not invented in Kemet to later filter down to
subSaharan Africa. It is part of the African roots that filtered UP. Thus in Egyptian
religion for example, Kemet is the RECIPIENT of what is sub-Saharan


Zarahan said
But you have yet to present credible evidence of any mass migration circa 500AD or even BC.
What percent of Kemet’s population for example moved into Nubia when the Persians appeared?

Asante says
Firstly I never stated that the migration from Kemet into Nubia/"aEthiopia" occurred during 500 AD, and that is yet another testament to your horrendous reading comprehension skills.

LOL, diversionary. I didn’t say the first migration to Nubia was 500 AD. I said -quote:
” you have yet to present credible evidence of any mass migration circa 500AD or even BC. “

This remains true. Both the 500AD and 500BC mass migrations are questionable
as already demonstrated above.


[n] The source presented of the origin story of the Fon people (Dahomey Kingdom) stated that after the demise of the Nubian kingdom at the hands of the Semitic Axumite empire around 500 AD then there was a migration of their group into their contemporary West African location. Go BACK, SLOW DOWN and READ what the exert actually stated Zaharan.

I did and once again, your sources are questionable, or YOU are using yourself
as a “source.” QUOTE- you said:

“Oh, here's a comparison that I myself found between ancient Kemetic traditional art and recent West African art;
== > "Notice how both the Kemetic pharaoh and Dahomey king are depicted as giant rulers, and have one hand sticking out while being served by smaller humans. More proof of this diffusion of people and culture from the Hapi Valley into interior regions of Africa is shown in the appearance of the ancient Kemetic spiritual system being shown in these other African cultures. The Osirian crock and flail were sported by the kings of inner Africa.[/i]

You yourself come up with your own shaky interpretation of something then
go back and cite that as a “source.” If I am wrong, what source does your blurb
on Dahomey come from? You list no reference.

As for the Axumites crushing the Nubians circa 500AD your dating is a bit off.
Ezana’s successful war against the Kushites/Meroeites was around 350AD but
even accepting your date ,the evidence is still thin on the mass migration.


Now as far as Kemet's population change, Britannica notes that the population of Kemet was around 1-1.5 million people until around the Late Period
" Going by Herodotus, with a population of at least 240,000 soldiers their wife (or wives) and children migrating into "Ethiopia" that's easily over a million people leaving Kemet.

Where does Herodotus say this? Again, you list no reference. A Google books
search on your 1835 Travels to Ethiopia book does not show any such holding
by Herodotus. Your figures also don’t seem plausible. If Egypt had a population
of around 1.5 million, and 1 million left for Nubia, you are saying that over 65%
of Egypt’s population moved. Again no credible evidence is presented as to this
whopping 65% rop in Egypt's population.



Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404."

and

Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A

Indeed- and those are bread and butter quotes. But the Badarian/Naqada period
is nowhere close to 500BC. Those genetic links were in place long before. Again
your do not seem to be able to understand the differing time periods, which is why
your fleeing negroes theory is such a laughable mess.
Your own quote used confirms this- QUOTE:

genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations..


Evidence has been provided for every group mentioned, that again correlates with the narrative told by accomplished scholar C. Williams and M. Alfred. To reiterate this is not a "theory" that I pulled out of my ass, nor did the aforementioned create the theory themselves.

But the time periods you are referencing were long before the alleged 500 BC or 500AD
mass migration, creating ANOTHER hole in your theory.


What my intent is with my thread, is to validate that information with modern research. I can say that I have successfully done so!

No you have not. There are several holes and much evidence is missing.


You keep trying to shame, the fact that the civilization was overwhelmed by a non black force. That is simply what happened Zaharan. You do understand that this is also noted in Nilo-Saharan oral traditions;

LOL What shame? Persia had the strongest forces in that part of the world at that time.
Egypt’s defeat is quite understandable. But when the Persians moved south
to face the Kushites/Meroeites, they got their asses checked. In fact, one Kushite
ruler is recorded as taunting Persian spies with the gift of a bow, inviting the Persian
armies to return when they found strength enough to draw the weapon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military_systems_to_1800#Sudanic_forces_versus_Persian_armies


In 2001, I interviewed some oldmen as to why they left Egypt. They told me that they left Egypt after being attacked by a mysterious people called Kipyayamungeen. They said these people were white. (The term, "white", is a relative term, which means lighter skin color.) They say this was during the reign of Pharaoh Kipcheum. According to Dr Sambu, about 250,000 warriors left Egypt for East Africa as a result of this invasion. This event coincides with the first Persian invasion of Egypt, which occurred about 525 BCE.

All well and good, but where is a credible evidence source? Based on what
you have presented so far, and the incompetence ane errors demonstrated,
people cannot take your word for it. Nether Eguptian or Nugian historical
show any such “shuffle” of 250,000 people from Egypt into East Africa.


You even have Nilo-Saharan speaking correlating the exact same migratory patterns, same dates, for the exact same reasons Zaharan.

So far you have shown no Nilo_saharan evidence correlating with this
alleged massive migration from Nubia to West Africa 500AD. Did Nilo-Saharan
speakers in Ghana suddenly increase circa 500AD? If so, how many, and where is the data?


you're trying to guard against this with some egotistical "we didn't lose to no white people" bullshit. You sound like a clown using that as a line of reasoning to disregard the migration from Kemet.

LOL nice try at diversion but fail. No one brought up any issue of “losing to
white people” except you. Let’s stick with the central issue. If there was no
migration your whole theory falls apart. SO far, you have presented little
credible in support.


have presented much evidence that supports those older theories, and case and point the findings of the Twa populations that dominated parts of Western-Central Africa that was noted by C.A. Diop back in the 70's. Now these white geneticist are trying to act like they didn't know that the long known (obviously as noted by C.A. Diop) obviously short statured skeletal remains were that of a Twa people not related to contemporary Niger-Congo speakers who dominate the region. They are trying to act like these "new genetics findings" were the only way to verify what was found with this new study.

True but keep on mind that much modern evidence contradicts claims of
alleged mass migration. The Akan for example were long in place without
needing any “fleeing negro migrants” from Nubia.


Zaharan the same Ashanti who sport the Kemetic Ankh? The same
Ashanti who Europeans were acknoledging as having came from Kemet
even half way into the 20th century?
[bThe Ashanti are a sub group of the Akan, and the Akan's oral tradition has already been provided to you, with the "Nubia model";

Oral traditions of both contradict and do not confirm any Nubia model.
Other modern scholarship also contradicts it, showing Akan origins to
be more in the Chad-Benue region as already shown above. On both counts
your theory fails.
www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199846733/obo-9780199846733-0166.xml


"Situated in western Africa, the Fon kingdom of Dahomey (or Abomey in its earliest years) was formed by a mixture of various local ethnic groups on the Abomey plain.

If they formed from theAbomey plain, they did not shuffle in from Nubia.
Your own example here, contradicts your theory.


See it all makes sense Zaharan!

LOL ..


If aDNA from Northeastern Africa is ripe with E1b1a affinities, and those same E1b1a affinities are almost completely absent today, while being abundant in a place that recent aDNA proves was absent of during antiquity? What is a better explanation than a mass migration(s) Zaharan? You tell it.

LOL, you keep saying that these mass migrations were500AD. But the aDNA
evidence shows no such thing circa 500AD. Here again is your confusion. You
are trying to take evidence from much earlier time periods and shoehorn
it into a rickety fleeing negroes model circa 500AD. It simply is not credible,
as demonstrated multiple times above already. You can’t even get the
history timelines right.

Your own sources confirm that Meroe did not rise until the 6th century BC Zaharan;

Sure Meroe took off 600BC, but Kush preceded it, and as I say before Kush
was already a major power long before this- almost overrunning Egypt as early
as the 17th Dynasty.


We have DNA evidence of the Mande presence in Neolithic- Bronze age South Asia;

Another diversion, that has nothing to do with your central
“fleeing negroes from Nubia” notion.

Yeah the African civilization that suddenly sprang up during a turmoilous period in Kemet showing traditional insignia of the latter are completely unrelated. Just like this isn't;

You keep claiming it is due to the “fleeing negroes from Nubia” that brought
all these good things and raised civilization to the “zenith.” lol ,


Zaharan the same Ashanti who sport the Kemetic Ankh? The same Ashanti who Europeans were acknoledging as having came from Kemet even half way into the 20th century?
www.jstor.org/stable/40456046?seq=1

Your article title says ARCHTYPE. An archtype is an ancestral
foundational theme or motif- a groundings. A common Saharan background
provides that, without needing any negroes from Nubia to make it happen.
Divine kingship is part of that African foundation for example. It does
not need the “fleeing negroes” from further East to appear elsewhere in Africa.



you started to create your "database" threads you would spam the Hell out of a thread with menaingful thoughts and discussions without contributing a cent a insight into the discussion at hand. You would post half a page of repetitive most of the time irrelevant bullshit, because you seemed to be incapable of formulating an actual argument.

LOL complete nonsense. Actually what I spammed was the hard info I myself
had harvested from numerous PDFs, and peer articles, together with what
was also posted by other vets. And it worked, for (a) it defeated the “nigga”
threads of the racist trolls, and (b) used their own threads to create massive multiple
links for Google to pick up. This is why they eventually gave up, their own threads
were turned against them.

You are a Johnny-come lately that came along, understanding little, and contributing
little, that used what was built by the people here -copy and paste- without a clear
understanding of the material.

Your incompetence, demonstrated time and time here again only illustrates the
point, which is why you are continually being laughed away when you go to
these other forums, and even Beyoku and his boys take you to task.
You keep proclaiming all these “big” victories, but aside from what you
copied here (legit scholarship that is responsible for any gains you claim),
Your other notions like the laughable “fleeing negro from Nubia” and other
associated nonsense are chopped up with ease. The only clown is you who
time and time again keeps getting ass whupped on these forums, because
you do not understand the material you are coping and pasting.

You do not even know what names I go under in Anthroscape and I have been
banned there for 4 years at least. The racist troll “Anglo” because I whipped him
so bad, has gone from forum to forum trying to use my ES name to make extreme
“Afrocentric” claims and such. Anyone who knows me knows I would not make
such laughable claims so his gambit failed. But ironically, the info he posted,
created yet more links for Google to pick up, debunking h and his ilk even more..
Hell they done us a favor.


No, I claim victory through the normally cocky and eager opposition's silence to my argument.

They are silent because they do not have time to wade through the laughable
theories you are pushing, once you get past credible scholarship. You only “victories”
are when you hew to credible evidence. When you step outside of that as with your
”fleeing negroes” nonsense, even Beyoku and his boys mock you, and then the forum
shuts you down for multiple spamming. Then you go into a tantrum and come here
and complain that they done you wrong.


Ok.... did you not see where XYZ came into this discussion giving me props in my rebuttal your naysaying nonsense!

All XYZ did is give you a general “attaboy” pat on the back, he did not support
the nonsensical notions you are pushing. In fact, much data he has posted debumks
your claims time and time again. His specific link on this page actually deals
mostly with Eurocentric distortions of Af history, it does not support your dubious
claims. Stick to credible scholarship. Once you move away from that you
are easily defeated. And keep on hitting them in various forums using that
credible scholarship. That can be useful as far as getting credible info out.

We can thus work on different sides of the fence- using different approaches to the same objective.
It is good we have both frankly exchanged views.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

Feb 14, 2020 12:24:02 GMT -5 Tukuler al~Takruri said:

- yeesh howzabout a few paragraphs per post not a darn pamphlet -


WALL OF TEXT
I think its meant to intimidate as it flits hither and yon.
I think limiting a post to a brick of the wall brick by brick.
<a 'brick' = a point or maybe up to three points, for digestion's sake>
I think with less clutter more readers could get in and participate.

If one of youze guyz is tired of the other
I suggest using Proboards blocking feature, I did for a while.
Others may want to continue points either side brought up.
All Things Considered

This is the Egyptology forum with no claimed moderator.
How do we keep it reasonable and classroom worthy?
How do we approach non-mainstream paradigms?

I heard extraordinary claims
require extraordinary proof.

Reasonable claims use mainstream against itself.

I'd like Egyptology to remain mainstream accessible not ghettoized.
Diop and Wms both were mainstream scholars, university trained.
They used mainstream against itself as did Hansberry and even Snowden.
Van Sertima allowed a train of opinion from academics in his journals.
Most times they were successful considering it was between 1950 and 1990.

It's ... 2020

If a paradigm lacks clear 2020 vision, presented all jumbled up
thus impossible to logically follow, it belongs in the Culture forum
for the time being in my opinion but very few paradigms don't deserve
a fair hearing by ESR Peers, i.e., all the contributing membership.

Problem is when ego doesn't allow for critique and criticism.
Ain't nobody right about everything everytime.
No matter how many times you declare yourself 'the winner' I'll tellya what.
Each n evry Reader can and will decide what to accept for themselves.
Writers can't take disagreement personally, are you your 'theory'?
No so don't get emotional, it's about your theory it's not about you
So don't lash out at personalities name calling and doo over a theory.

I understand the emotion drive behind presenting points of view.

I won't censor it but an intelligent adult can talk w/o profanity.
The ESR audience here includes all from hi-brow to hoodrat, from
all around the world but it's ours, black, on loan from Proboards
just remember

Owner administration management and staff set the rules and pace here


This thread was locked 18 hrs ago.
This thread will remain locked.
Think about what I wrote above.
Don't push my 'refuge for black expression' stance
into thinking anything goes because no it don't.

Agreed.

[Tukuler al~Takruri]

[Tukuler al~Takruri]