Hapi Valley Origins and Dispersal of "Niger-Congo speakers"

[anansi]

Asante

I am using the term "Bantu" to describe this group of Sudanese migrants because they referred to themselves as "Bantu". This is why the ancient Egyptian hieroglyph calls the ancient Sudanese town "Bantu" named after the inhabitants. When they made it up to pre-dynastic Egypt they called themselves the "Anu" or "Bantu".

Ok I am at my weakest concerning mdu ntr but I have an interest in the term and the use of Anu Diop agrees with you in that the Kemities made use of Bantu prefixes and another interesting addition to this is the C group or Pan Grave people

The name Pan Grave Culture comes from the typical circular pit graves, which sometimes have a small stone circle as their superstructure. The dead are buried in a crouched position, on their right side, oriented either according to the absolute co-ordinates north-south with the head in the north, looking west, or oriented east-west, with the head in the east, looking south. The bodies rest on mats and are wrapped in leather or fur. They seem to have also imported Egyptian linen according to the representation of a Medjay man painted on a bukranium. This painting also shows the coiffure bulging backwards, in a similar manner to that worn in modern times by the Watussi men.

www.numibia.net/nubia/c-group2.htm

Wa in this case is flipped from Ba so then we have the Wa-Tutsi a Bantu speaking people so again there is a case for Bantu like.. speaking folks that made up part of the population of Kush and Kemet.The reason I said Bantu like as I am under the impression that these were Nilo-Saharan speakers instead of Niger Congo ,however given the close proximity and interaction I would not be surprised that they influence each other while remaining distinct.

Anu in this case meant pillar or temple good discussion by poster Wally.
www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006823;p=2

[asante]

Jan 6, 2014 2:58:17 GMT -5 anansi said:

Wa in this case is flipped from Ba so then we have the Wa-Tutsi a Bantu speaking people so again there is a case for Bantu like.. speaking folks that made up part of the population of Kush and Kemet.The reason I said Bantu like as I am under the impression that these were Nilo-Saharan speakers instead of Niger Congo

Why are you saying that these particular connection are Nilo-Saharan? Has a plethora of examples of strictly Bantu and Proto Bantu words and cognates not been presented? Were the words for everyday domesticates like dogs, cats, snakes/pythons, mice, goat, sheep, cow not just proven to be "Bantu" (many more examples can be given)? There are more "Bantu" words in ancient Egypt than there are Afro-Asiatic. Why you're insisting on a Nilo-Saharan filter between the "Bantu" and ancient Egyptian relationship is puzzling.

[anansi]

Jan 7, 2014 23:44:58 GMT -5 asante said:

Jan 6, 2014 2:58:17 GMT -5 anansi said:

Wa in this case is flipped from Ba so then we have the Wa-Tutsi a Bantu speaking people so again there is a case for Bantu like.. speaking folks that made up part of the population of Kush and Kemet.The reason I said Bantu like as I am under the impression that these were Nilo-Saharan speakers instead of Niger Congo

Why are you saying that these particular connection are Nilo-Saharan? Has a plethora of examples of strictly Bantu and Proto Bantu words and cognates not been presented? Were the words for everyday domesticates like dogs, cats, snakes/pythons, mice, goat, sheep, cow not just proven to be "Bantu" (many more examples can be given)? There are more "Bantu" words in ancient Egypt than there are Afro-Asiatic. Why you're insisting on a Nilo-Saharan filter between the "Bantu" and ancient Egyptian relationship is puzzling.

Because linguist made the claim  that Kushites and others were primarily Nilo Saharans, the Anu or Anuak from further up river are among the founders of Kemet are still speakers of that language today.

Anuak.
A language of South Sudan
ISO 639-3anu
Alternate NamesAnyuak, Anywa, Anywak, Dho Anywaa, Jambo, Nuro, Yambo
Population
52,000 in South Sudan (1991 UBS). Population total all countries: 140,000.
Location
Jonglei State, Akobo and Pochalla counties. Also in Ethiopia.
Language Maps
Djibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia
Southwestern Ethiopia
South Sudan
Language Status
5 (Developing).
ClassificationNilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic, Nilotic, Western, Luo, Northern, Anuak
Dialects
More similar to Acholi [ach] and Luo languages of Uganda than to Shilluk [shk].
Typology
SVO; prepositions; tonal
Language Use
All domains. All ages. Positive attitudes.

www.ethnologue.com/language/anu

Like I stated earlier that all three groups Nilo Saharans,Niger Congo which would include  Bantu speakers from that group and Afrasian would be rubbing elbows especially in the area of the Great lakes from the earliest of days..all three would be instrumental in building Nile Valley civilizations and the Anu were among the first,as for your assertions that there are more Bantu words in the language of the Kemeties I don't know about that,because the according to linguist the ancient kemites were  primarily Afrasian speakers.

[amunratheultimate]

Jan 3, 2014 23:23:19 GMT -5 anansi said:

Thanks for posting this. I was looking for the source of that map for a while.

[asante]

^^
What are the issues that you have with the theory?

[amunratheultimate]

Jan 31, 2014 3:12:55 GMT -5 asante said:

^^
What are the issues that you have with the theory?

Everything. I don't agree with it at all. But of course you have the right to your opinion. For example, I don't think what you call the greenberg theory of bantu migration is wrong. I don't think Bantu are direct descendant of AE as you seem to allude to. Frankly, I disagree with almost everything you wrote in this thread.

I laid down my theory about AE a couple of times on the ES forum. Basically, I think AE and other African populations like Yoruba, Somali, Afar, Bantu, Dinka, Wolof, Dogon, Kongo, Zulu, etc share common ancestors in eastern and the Green Sahara region at a time predating the formation of the AE state.  The Nile Valley being just one of the many location African people migrated to during the dessication of the Sahara. Other locations are for example Western Africa, the Great Lakes region and eventually Southern Africa through the well known Bantu migration (of people from the Cameroon border).

Thus for example, the linguistic similarities between certain African languages like Wolof and Bantu and the Ancient Egyptian language is related to the "pre-dialectal" language(s) spoken by people in the ancient East African and Green Saharan region from which ultimately all modern African languages (and the AE language) and people derive from. Same thing for many cultural similarities for example.

So somehow, there may be a Nile Valley origin of bantu speakers, but its' more like a Nile Valley origin of Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) speakers, from which Bantu derive from, as well as speakers of other language groups such as Nilo-Saharans, Cushitic and Chadic languages. We can note that genetically all E-P2 and E-M2 (E1b1a, V38,etc) carriers are said to have originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan. Other downstream A and B haplogroups probably also originated in that region as well (especially by combining linguistic evidence).

[asante]

Feb 1, 2014 16:09:55 GMT -5 amunratheultimate said:

The Nile Valley being just one of the many location African people migrated to during the dessication of the Sahara. Other locations are for example Western Africa, the Great Lakes region and eventually Southern Africa through the well known Bantu migration (of people from the Cameroon border).

That's the question though, who were the inhabitants of the ancient Sahara? We know of the Nilo-Saharan (presumably Nilotes) migration into the ancient Sahara, and their subsequent back migration to the parts of West Africa, southward into Chad, the Great Lakes, and of course the the Lower Nile Valley as a result of Desertification.




We know about the earlier Berber speaking inhabitants who were apart of the "Afrisan" migration from the Horn which placed a variety of different African physical types speaking "Afrisan" throughout Northern Africa (including Chad). So what event put Niger-Congo speakers in the ancient Sahara? 

Now let's take Pleistocene Nubians into account. Who are they? They don't look like modern northern Sudanese, but they are identical to the modern West African type. Who else in Africa at this time is identical to the contemporary West African type? Can they be the ancestors of contemporary Niger-Congo speaking ("proto-Bantu") populations throughout Equatorial Africa? This Sudanese population that was identical to contemporary West Africans expanded northward from Sudan into Egypt around 12,000 years ago. The "Anu" people?

"extreme erosion on the body of the Sphinx could not be the result of wind and sand, as has been universally assumed, but rather was the result of water. Geologists agree that in the distant past Egypt was subjected to severe flooding. This period coincides with the melting of the ice from the last Ice Age (13,000-10,000 BC). Wind erosion cannot take place when the body of the Sphinx is covered by sand, and it can be proved that the Sphinx has been in this condition for nearly all of the last five thousand years - since the alleged time of its 4th Dynasty construction. Furthermore, if wind-blown sand had indeed caused the deep erosion of the Sphinx, we would expect to find evidence of such erosion on other Egyptian monuments built of similar materials and exposed to the wind for a similar length of time. Yet the fact of the matter is, that even on structures that have had more exposure to the wind-blown sand, there are minimal effects of erosion, the sand having done little more than scour clean the surface of the dressed stones. Quite simply, this means the Sphinx was carved before Egypt was inundated with the waters of the great Ice Age floods, and that those waters caused the unique erosion patterns on the Sphinx."

Who else expanded into Egypt around this time?

"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots. The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food." (Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture." In Egypt in Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)

Now wouldn't this make a lot more sense in explaining all known and relevant events in the region at the time?

The most successful of these were speakers of Proto-Afro-Asiatic language from the African rift valley. Going through the savannah, the Chadic speakers reached Lake Chad while the Berbers, the Maghreb and the Proto-Egyptians arrived in Upper Egypt. However Martin Bernal did not consider speakers of Proto-Bantu in his analysis. It is the author’s contention, from the linguistic contents, that speakers of Proto-Bantu played an active part at the time of the expansion of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Rift Valley of East Africa. These Proto-Bantu speakers going through the savannah formed part of the migration to Egypt. The Bantu languages together with other indigenous languages fused together and became embedded to form the Proto-Egyptian language. It is for this reason that the Ancient Egyptian language contains a substantial amount of Proto-Bantu or Bantu roots.

However Guthrie speculated that before the Proto-Bantu expansion from Zaire, there had been several pre-Bantu stages, at which time the Bantu ancestors lived far to the north around Lake Chad. One group from this area made its way to Zaire and became the Proto-Bantu. The Proto-Bantu speakers and Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers lived along side each other. They traded together, shared and exchanged common vocabularies of words.

Original homeland of the Bantu up to 1500 A.D
Dark shading: Possible ultimate origin of the Bantu
Cross shading: Area of Bantu expansion into Egypt


To me an expansion of both African groups as stated above perfectly explains this, as opposed to it being solely an "Afrisan" migration.




Isn't this migration just about the only way to explain the mutation of sickle from "Benin" to "Arabian" (just silly labels used to through us off)? This is only passed from father to son, so our people must have taken our blood disease there. It's dates back at least to pre-dynastic Egypt. Our blood disease is found as far East as India and Iran. Subsequently it is claimed by some West African scholars and historians in their oral that they were in Mesopotamia. Not only do they have their semen stains left back where they were but it's now even supported by some Western linguist now that there is in fact a "Niger-Congo" link to the Mesopotamian language. "Benin" (a silly label) sickle cell is found there too, Why? Weren't the Natufanians and subsequent aboriginal populations of Europe found to be "Negroid" as a result of this migration (Ricaut 2008) from Africa into Levant and through Europe? Also is this not the migration that the Lemba claim to have taken from Israel? 



Are the "wild" claims of these ordinarily Bantu "on the surface", 60% haplogroup J carrying southern Africans not verified through genetics? Yet even with this proof of a migration of haplogroup J from Yemen into Southern Africa is never noted. Why?

Clearly evidence is there suggesting that the ancient Egyptian language not only contained Niger-Congo words but was even dominated by Niger-Congo languages, but for some reason this is never taken into account by Western linguist. Why? Hasn't every mummy genetically tested thus far yielded predominantly E1b1a genetic affinities? Since this is the case then we know by now that this it isn't just "chance". A migration of some sort took place which put E1b1a onto the Lower Nile Valley. This needs to be explained! If we're going to assume that the ancient Sahara (which was dominated by Nilo-Saharan speakers according to much evidence) was the corridor for these E1b1a carrying (presumably) Niger Congo speakers onto the early Nile then there should be evidence of a migratory event from West Africa and into the ancient Sahara, but instead there is none. The problem with Greenberg's theory is that it's proponent have to pretend as though the affinities between ancient Egyptian and Niger-Congo languages do not exist.

Thus for example, the linguistic similarities between certain African languages like Wolof and Bantu and the Ancient Egyptian language is related to the "pre-dialectal" language(s) spoken by people in the ancient East African and Green Saharan region

So what migratory event brought those languages from East Africa over to West Africa?

So somehow, there may be a Nile Valley origin of bantu speakers, but its' more like a Nile Valley origin of Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) speakers, from which Bantu derive from,

I only use the word "Bantu" because that is the name that these Africans called themselves. "Anu" is a way of saying "people", which is what groups Bantu languages as such? Isn't that a dead giveaway? The "Anu" people even looked like us:

as well as speakers of other language groups such as Nilo-Saharans, Cushitic and Chadic languages. We can note that genetically all E-P2 and E-M2 (E1b1a, V38,etc) carriers are said to have originated somewhere in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan.

That being said why shouldn't this argument make sense?



^^

Why does the source for the genetic basis of contemporary equatorial African populations come out of the same region as the Pleistocene Nubians who were not only directly ancestral to the "negroid" Badarians but were physically identical to contemporary "West African" types? As you stated the genetic basis for Niger-Congo speaking West Africans and Southern African Bantus originated in Eastern Africa in what looks to be Sudan (just like there oral traditions say). The question now must be asked what events brought contemporary West Africans into West Africa (hence we didn't originate there)? This map is based on inferences which are based on contemporary populations. When this map was made there was no ancient DNA evidence from ancient Egypt and Nubia, but now there is. This new ancient DNA evidence have revealed these ancient Egyptians to have been largely E1b1a which is the genetic signature of equatorial Africa and particularly "Niger-Congo-Bantu" speakers. Shouldn't these new findings lend huge support to the theory shown above which is based on ancient African oral traditions that proto-Bantu speakers migrated and fused along side Afro-Asiatic speakers (Puntites)? That being said the spread of E1b1a across ancient northern Africa most likely was the result of this migration:



It would also explain why E1b1a is dated to have been in Israel for over 2,000 years in which subsequently characterizes all Jews today (as a result of the much older Natufanian expansion). What other event can explain why E1b1a dates back to Israel to at least 2,000 years? The disbursement of this group of one people from the Nile Valley as described in folklore and into Equatorial Africa is what left Upper Egypt and Sudan almost completely of void our E1b1a genetic marker:




To me I think that it's more than a "coincidence" that the populations centered around every high frequency spot of E1b1a (Gold Coast, Senegal-Gambia, Southern Africa, Cameroon) all have an oral tradition which takes them back to Nile Valley civilizations? Though the peak seen in Senegal-Gambia is likely the result of retreating Muslims from Spain (Moors) who were North African Berbers prior to that. Looking at that fist migration map of Afro-Asiatic which also contains e1b1a Niger-Congo speakers. The oldest civilization in Nigeria for example for example the Nok civilization:

The Nok culture of northern Nigeria, a civilization that existed from approximately 500 B.C. to about 500 A.D., is principally known for its terracotta figures. Relatively little is known about the purpose of these figures or the civilization that created such extraordinary sculptural representations of its people. A few of the remarkable characteristics that distinguish Nok pieces from terracottas of later cultures in Nigeria include the triangular, pierced eyes; the elaborate coiffure and beard; and the placement of the ears. This work depicts a person of high status wearing elaborate beaded jewelry, and with a crooked baton on his right arm and a hinged flail on the left. These are symbols of authority also found in ancient Egyptian depictions of the Pharaohs and the god Osiris. The Nok culture existed during the late Pharonic period and intra-African trading could have spread Egyptian influences into many other parts of Africa.

Art Institute of Minneapolis

The inhabitants of the Nok civilization of ancient Nigeria which came into existence during the Late Dynastic period (consistently noted to be the period when great biological change occurred in ancient Egypt) of ancient Egyptian history worshiped the same supreme God that the ancient Sudanese Nubians-Egyptians (who looked like us) have been worshiping for over 10,000 years.



For some reason these undeniable culture and linguistic affinities between the Nile Valley and equatorial Africa have rarely to never been taken into account when the narrative of the African history is written by European scholars. 

A Bantu-Afrisan migration theory also explains why the characterized "Berber" populations of Northern Africa/Maghreb looked like us. The Moors are depicted not as looking like the Horner type but rather our "true Negroid" type (examples given). Pictures have been provided on the previous pages of the Libyan Berber pharaohs of the 21st Dynasty of ancient Egypt and they look no different then the vast majority of the earlier pharonic statuary (very "Negroid" in all forms). Other depictions of the Maghreb inhabitants (including Carthage) and even into southern Spain also show undeniably "negroid" people who likely descended from that same Bantu-Afrisan migratory route across the Northern African coast and so on. I think that it's quite foolish to simply dismiss the significance of seeing combinations of fat lips, wide noses, kinky hair and even prognathous statuary throughout these regions of the world where other evidence links us to. This is especially true when one considers the relatively recent racialization of History and the fact that those who wrote that history run the world now and despise us. It's crazy because some blacks will only accept verification of our truly illustrious history through the scientific journals of the descendants of these white people who stripped us of our history and lied about it (for the purposes of making us feel worthless) but will treat a tribal elder relaying our story to us like a crackhead at a lunch counter. It's crazy!

Here are the exerts from Akan (Ghanian) historian Dr. Nana Darkwah on the history of ancient Egypt.

The Ancient Egyptians were Black people and their modern descendants are alive and well in Africa. Real evidence of the modern descendants of the Ancient Egyptians in the tribes of Africa and the language and culture these people left behind in Ancient Egypt is the most powerful evidence there is about the Black racial origin of the Ancient Egyptians....The indigenous African tribal name of the most popular Ancient Egyptian king the west was Tutu Ankoma—not Tutankhamun. Not only do we know the indigenous African tribal name of this Ancient Egyptian king, but we also know where the modern dynasty of his ancient dynasty is today. We know in Africa that the Ancient Egyptian king who built the middle pyramid in Giza was called Akufu and not Khufu as the "experts" have told us. We also know that his two sons completed the procession of pyramids and placed a lion in the front of the procession. These sons were Dade Afre and not Djedefra as the experts transposed this name; and his brother was Ochere Afre and not Chephren as the experts have told us. The modern dynasty of these ancient kings is the Akuapem Dynasty that can be found today in the Eastern Region of Ghana. Conservatives, liberals, and all in between can go to check these people out and verify the royal names among these people.... Darkwah states that ancient Egypt was geographically in Africa and that so called European experts do not know the Ancient Egyptian story because they are not familiar with African tribal names. They do not have the linguistic and cultural backgrounds to identify Egyptian names and have simply transposed the African names of people and places in Ancient Egyptian history into European languages to make it possible for them to claim expertise. Darkwah traces the ancient past of African tribes from the Middle East through Ancient Egypt to inner Africa. He reveals the African tribe that historians gave the fictitious names the Sumerians, Akkadians, and the African Tribes that were the Ancient Egyptians

Nana is correct when he states that ancient Egypt was comprised of different African tribes.

Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr (Kemet)

Tutsi
Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"

Akan
Akan - the name of a god
Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris

Fante
Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)

Hausa
Hosa - a singing god
(The Sahidic Coptic word for 'to sing; song' is Hos. Note: There are also towns in Ethiopia & Angola named 'Hosa'.

Yoruba
Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings
Ouruba - Great God of soul

Fulani
The word for Fulani in Wolof is Pël, from this the French derived Peul
Paal - a Kushite god; a form of Ra

Twi (an Akan linguistic group)
Twi - the name of a god

Oromo
Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people in the Oromo language
Orma ; Oromo - the name of a god

Edo
Edo - name of a god; also a city in Keme

The Bini, the original people and founders of the Benin empire (aka, Edo empire)
Binni - a phallic god

^^^ The above are not mere "coincidences". This isn't some very ancient link, but instead what clearly appears to be direct descent as their oral tradition states. 

[anansi]

Asante the position you are taking is it phenotypic or linguistic?? some northern modern Nubians do look like their counter parts in Western Africa and some Afrasian speakers also resembles Niger-Congo,there is no neat packaging of language with looks especially in Africa, yes there maybe averages based on local adaptation but the next community near by may came from the same language group but differ some what in looks and vice verse..in any case

And please be careful of the use of the term "Nubian" when speaking of the kemitic era the above are the different political entities perhaps under going transformation and absorption under emergent Kush but bound enemies of Kemet note the wide geographical areas identified with them and the languages that goes with areas they lived in.

[asante]

Feb 3, 2014 4:51:26 GMT -5 anansi said:

Asante the position you are taking is it phenotypic or linguistic?? some northern modern Nubians do look like their counter parts in Western Africa

I'm trying this thing called common sense, so I'm using a combination of linguistic, phenotypic, genetic, and of course oral tradition. When I see an uncountable number of ancient statues and depictions of people along this migration detailed above with the same physical features (combinations of fat lips, wide nose, prognathous, kinky hair) as myself or my immediate black family. Other African groups like Hamites/Horners, Nilotes, Khoisan and Pygmies don't come to mind, but instead the so-called "True Negroids" of Africa do. I Notice how we don't even a have specific name for ourselves besides those which designate our contemporary geographical locations or languages. Aside from designating Southern African Bantu speakers as such, what collective identity do the non the Bantu Niger-Congo speakers have? With that isn't easy to see how we have been written out of history? This ignorance about our history would indicate that we don't have a prominent place even within African history, as we don't even have a collective name for ourselves! For example "amunratheultimate" (not picking on you) acknowledged the likely East African/Nile Valley origins of contemporary Niger-Congo speakers, but doesn't have an explanation as to how our ancestors as a whole (not a few) wound up on the opposite shores of the continent today. What specific events took place that put our M2 carrying ancestors into equatorial and Western Africa? The fact that we accept the tale that we originated and sat in Western Africa since our existence as given to us by white Europeans (who had contempt and jealously towards us) is evident of the control that they and their system still has over our minds. They put an invisible fence (like a dog) that many loud barking Negroes are still scared to cross, and that is astounding to me.









We've been conditioned through unwritten Western rules to not be able to identify ourselves when we see ourselves, even when we have peer reviewed evidence which verifies EVERYTHING!

"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)." F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564

The first people in the Levant and that part of Europe were the result of the Bantu-Afrisan migration detailed in this thread, is it not? The study often posted by Zaharan (thanks) then goes on to point to the fact that the people of the Middle East and southern Europe became overran with coming of the Dorians, and or the migration of haplogroup R carrying Dravidan Albinos who migrated from the Central Asian steps and into Europe/Middle East/ and eventually Northern Africa.

The second Out Of Africa (OOA) migration event (The first being Humans to Australia), saw Blacks from Africa with straight hair and "Mongol features" take an "Inland route" through southern Asia and on up to China, where they settled. Included with this group, were straight haired Blacks "without" Mongol features - now called "Dravidians" who stayed close to Africa, and settled in India and other areas of southern Asia. Also included with this second (OOA) group were Albinos, who were probably motivated by a quest for relief from the heat and burning Sunshine of southern Africa.

Here's what they looked like:





Here is their genetic signature (Central Asia, Northern India, North America, parts of East and South Asia, the Middle East and of course Europe:



This is just to give insight as to how things and people came to be where they are today. The source of light skin in history came from "Aryan" migration out of Central Asia. Prior to these Dravidian Albinos migrating into the various parts of the World...The world was populated by lineages that came straight from the black peoples of Africa were they not? This is includes Europe. Think I'm lying? They said it. 

The North American Review

The North American Review (NAR) was the first literary magazine in the United States. Founded in Boston in 1815 by journalist Nathan Hale and others, it was published continuously until 1940.

Until the founding of the Atlantic Monthly in 1857, the NAR was the foremost publication in New England and probably the entire United States.[citation needed] For all its lasting impact on American literature and institutions, however, the Review had no more than 3000 subscribers in its heyday.

The NAR's first editor, William Tudor (1779-1830), and other founders had been members of Boston's Anthology Club, and launched The North American Review to foster a genuine American culture. In its first few years the NAR published poetry, fiction, and miscellaneous essays on a bi-monthly schedule, but in 1818 it became a quarterly with more focused contents intent on improving society and on elevating culture. The NAR promoted the improvement of public education and administration, with reforms in secondary schools, sound professional training of doctors and lawyers, rehabilitation of prisoners at the state penitentiary, and government by educated experts.

The NAR's editors and contributors included several literary and political New Englanders as John Adams, George Bancroft, Nathaniel Bowditch, William Cullen Bryant, Lewis Cass, Edward T. Channing, Caleb Cushing, Richard Henry Dana, Sr., Alexander Hill Everett, Edward Everett, Jared Sparks, George Ticknor, Gulian C. Verplanck, and Daniel Webster.

Please note this entry from:

The North American Review Volume 0139 Issue 334 (Sept 1884)

Title: Our Remote Ancestry [pp. 246-256]

Author: Winchell, Alexander, Prof.

Collection: Journals: North American Review (1815 - 1900)

A white man even states that the Bantu-Afrisan migration brought those blacks into Europe and created civilization...before there were white people in Europe! He states that this lineage of black Africans formed the Etruscan civilization (Italy). Wild claims?









Common sense! What migration brought these black people into southern Europe? Why are these important events not taken into account when retracing historical event? This group of Africans that entered Europe were clearly builders of ancient European marvels like Stonehenge. It's not taken into account because it's clear that they were black!

and some Afrasian speakers also resembles Niger-Congo from Africa and into,

Well could this have something to do with that?

However Martin Bernal did not consider speakers of Proto-Bantu in his analysis. It is the author’s contention, from the linguistic contents, that speakers of Proto-Bantu played an active part at the time of the expansion of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers in the Rift Valley of East Africa. These Proto-Bantu speakers going through the savannah formed part of the migration to Egypt. The Bantu languages together with other indigenous languages fused together and became embedded to form the Proto-Egyptian language. It is for this reason that the Ancient Egyptian language contains a substantial amount of Proto-Bantu or Bantu roots.

link

Why or why not?

And please be careful of the use of the term "Nubian" when speaking of the kemitic era the above are the different political entities perhaps under going transformation and absorption under emergent Kush but bound enemies of Kemet note the wide geographical areas identified with them and the languages that goes with areas they lived in.

At this point everyone knows that the Nile Valley civilizations were comprised of a mosaic of different black African ethnic groups like the Bantu, Afrisan, and Nilotes. The term Nubian as I was using it referred to the Pleistocene Nubians, who were the ancestors of the Anu-Badarians and contemporary Niger-Congo speakers.

[amunratheultimate]

Feb 3, 2014 14:30:28 GMT -5 asante said:

For example "amunratheultimate" (not picking on you) acknowledged the likely East African/Nile Valley origins of contemporary Niger-Congo speakers, but doesn't have an explanation as to how our ancestors as a whole (not a few) wound up on the opposite shores of the continent today. What specific events took place that put our M2 carrying ancestors into equatorial and Western Africa?

That's easy. It would be the same event(s) that led to the expansion of Nilo-Saharan speakers and other people into the greening Sahara.

IMO, the Green Sahara led to the migration of ancient Niger-Kordofanian (Niger-Congo) speakers, among other people, from their Eastern African homeland toward the Green Sahara. Following the northward expansion of southern flora and animals due to the northward shift of the Monsoon rains. When the Sahara dried up, they migrated south to their current West African locations. Again following rain, animals and flora. Then eventually they migrated across Africa during the Bantu migration from their Cameroon border homeland.

The fact is that the homeland of Niger-Congo speakers (and E1b1a, E-P2, E-M2, E-V38 carriers) is in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan, and that they are now in Western Africa is clear. Beside the Kordofanian (Niger-Congo) speakers still in Sudan today, the rest of the ancient Niger-Congo speakers migrated out of the region when it got dry while others changed language and assimilated into other language groups such as Nilo-Saharan, Chadic, Tuareg and Cushitic speakers (language switch). The current domination of E1b1a in modern Niger-Congo speakers is probably due to a relatively recent genetic drift event just before their expansion in Western Africa. Niger-Congo speakers probably had a higher Y-DNA "diversity", more like their current mtDNA diversity, before this genetic drift event. Beside their MtDNA diversity just mentioned, you can see it since they still have a high nucleotides diversity, so they were as a whole always part of a relatively large population. I would say this event would be the establishment of West African agriculture by some members of the E1b1a "clan" or sub-group. A solid social/technological tool which explain the assimilation of other ancient West African (hunter gatherers) people and their current demographic and geographic domination.

If we would take aDNA samples of populations all across of the Green Sahara period. We would see haplogroups from every modern populations in Africa. If we were able to isolate somehow ancient Niger-Congo speakers from the Green Sahara period many of them would be E1b1a while others would be from other haplogroups. That is, it's only later on, due to demographic expansion of E1b1a "patrilocal subgroup"/"clan" helped by their agriculture technology that this haplogroup became dominant in modern Niger-Congo speakers.

IMO, during the Green Sahara period, Niger-Congo speakers were eventually pastoralists, but they had difficulty making their cattle survive the tse tse fly belt when migrating south. Agriculture became a more secure form of food production. Some Niger-Congo speakers like Senegal Toucouleurs and Gabon Bantu still possess 90% and 40% of Lactase persistance. While others like Yoruba and Igbo possess a relatively high 17% and 18% of Lactase persistance. Hinting that in the past some of them may have been pastoralists, using milk as food, with a small positive selective event like drought, disease and famine (smaller than in North-western Europe) making LP a beneficial (aka essential) survival adaptation for some of them during that or those small positive selective event(s).

Obviously, as for any theory, more archeological research and aDNA analysis must be performed to get a better idea of past population movements.

[anansi]

Asante

I'm trying this thing called common sense, so I'm using a combination of linguistic, phenotypic, genetic, and of course oral tradition. When I see an uncountable number of ancient statues and depictions of people along this migration detailed above with the same physical features (combinations of fat lips, wide nose, prognathous, kinky hair) as myself or my immediate black family. Other African groups like Hamites/Horners, Nilotes, Khoisan and Pygmies don't come to mind, but instead the so-called "True Negroids" of Africa do. I Notice how we don't even have specific name for ourselves besides those which designate our contemporary geographical locations or languages. Aside from designating Southern African Bantu speakers as such, what collective identity do the non the Bantu Niger-Congo speakers have? With that isn't easy to see how we have been written out of history? This ignorance about our history would indicate that we don't have a prominent place even within African history, as we don't even have a collective name for ourselves! For example "amunratheultimate" (not picking on you) acknowledged the likely East African/Nile Valley origins of contemporary Niger-Congo speakers, but doesn't have an explanation as to how our ancestors as a whole (not a few) wound up on the opposite shores of the continent today. What specific events took place that put our M2 carrying ancestors into equatorial and Western Africa? The fact that we accept the tale that we originated and sat in Western Africa since our existence as given to us by white Europeans (who had contempt and jealously towards us) is evident of the control that they and their system still has over our minds. They put an invisible fence (like a dog) that many loud barking Negroes are still scared to cross, and that is astounding to me.

There you go again making use of out dated race concepts and nomenclature,you keep referring to they! as though they! are apart from us! "true Negroes" as opposed to "fake Negroes" in some sort of racial taxonomy,and although you complained about geographical divide you still buy into it.
And yes we do have a collective name for ourselves it's called Africans the above complaint about Bantu and others having specific names for themselves is based solely on language but not in looks,as they and others differed widely in terms of social organization,the people on the Niger also varies in social organization and looks,the event that took some folks into Western Africa most likely had to do with the drying of the Sahara,while in the green Sahara folks moved back and forth as there was no divide.

You do understand the significance of the maps above,look at the dates on the first map and correspondence of
the spread of pottery and other shared technology right across the continent of the second map.
As for the bottom half of your post, that have very little to do with development in Africa and more to do with a tip of the hat to Mike.
Yes Africans moved into other areas outside Africa we all know that,but I hope this is not about non Africans,and for the record making generalization about groups of people calling them albinos can be seen as offensive if used in an off-handed or derogatory manner.
Example: Albinos distort our history.  unless one is taking about an actual albino.


 

[herodotus]

There you go again making use of out dated race concepts and nomenclature,you keep referring to they! as though they! are apart from us! "true Negroes" as opposed to "fake Negroes" in some sort of racial taxonomy,and although you complained about geographical divide you still buy into it.

You are guilty though of the same (?). You are treating Africans as some real entity or natural group. They are not.

Africa is a social construct. Its borders are cultural/political, drawn by man. What geographical divide?

[anansi]

Feb 3, 2014 20:12:52 GMT -5 herodotus said:

There you go again making use of out dated race concepts and nomenclature,you keep referring to they! as though they! are apart from us! "true Negroes" as opposed to "fake Negroes" in some sort of racial taxonomy,and although you complained about geographical divide you still buy into it.

You are guilty though of the same (?). You are treating Africans as some real entity or natural group. They are not.

Africa is a social construct. Its borders are cultural/political, drawn by man. What geographical divide?

Yes and no Africa or the land mass called Africa has natural boundaries and within those natural geographical boundaries lays evolutionary histories of fauna and flora unique to that land mass marked by tectonic plates and yes the Levant is part of greater Africa.

The divide in this case is the attempt to divide East Africa from West Africa,north from south on the basis of cultural,historical and even morphological connectivity and continuity.

[asante]

Feb 3, 2014 16:14:00 GMT -5 amunratheultimate said:

That's easy. It would be the same event(s) that led to the expansion of Nilo-Saharan speakers and other people into the greening Sahara.

IMO, the Green Sahara led to the migration of ancient Niger-Kordofanian (Niger-Congo) speakers, among other people, from their Eastern African homeland toward the Green Sahara. Following the northward expansion of southern flora and animals due to the northward shift of the Monsoon rains. When the Sahara dried up, they migrated south to their current West African locations. Again following rain, animals and flora. Then eventually they migrated across Africa during the Bantu migration from their Cameroon border homeland.

The fact is that the homeland of Niger-Congo speakers (and E1b1a, E-P2, E-M2, E-V38 carriers) is in Eastern Africa, maybe around Sudan, and that they are now in Western Africa is clear. Beside the Kordofanian (Niger-Congo) speakers still in Sudan today, the rest of the ancient Niger-Congo speakers migrated out of the region when it got dry while others changed language and assimilated into other language groups such as Nilo-Saharan, Chadic, Tuareg and Cushitic speakers (language switch). The current domination of E1b1a in modern Niger-Congo speakers is probably due to a relatively recent genetic drift event just before their expansion in Western Africa. Niger-Congo speakers probably had a higher Y-DNA "diversity", more like their current mtDNA diversity, before this genetic drift event. Beside their MtDNA diversity just mentioned, you can see it since they still have a high nucleotides diversity, so they were as a whole always part of a relatively large population. I would say this event would be the establishment of West African agriculture by some members of the E1b1a "clan" or sub-group. A solid social/technological tool which explain the assimilation of other ancient West African (hunter gatherers) people and their current demographic and geographic domination.

If we would take aDNA samples of populations all across of the Green Sahara period. We would see haplogroups from every modern populations in Africa. If we were able to isolate somehow ancient Niger-Congo speakers from the Green Sahara period many of them would be E1b1a while others would be from other haplogroups. That is, it's only later on, due to demographic expansion of E1b1a "patrilocal subgroup"/"clan" helped by their agriculture technology that this haplogroup became dominant in modern Niger-Congo speakers.

IMO, during the Green Sahara period, Niger-Congo speakers were eventually pastoralists, but they had difficulty making their cattle survive the tse tse fly belt when migrating south. Agriculture became a more secure form of food production. Some Niger-Congo speakers like Senegal Toucouleurs and Gabon Bantu still possess 90% and 40% of Lactase persistance. While others like Yoruba and Igbo possess a relatively high 17% and 18% of Lactase persistance. Hinting that in the past some of them may have been pastoralists, using milk as food, with a small positive selective event like drought, disease and famine (smaller than in North-western Europe) making LP a beneficial (aka essential) survival adaptation for some of them during that or those small positive selective event(s).

Obviously, as for any theory, more archeological research and aDNA analysis must be performed to get a better idea of past population movements.

Your theory is saying that the "Niger-Congo" speakers arrived in the ancient Sahara through assimilation with Nilo-Saharan speaking Nilotes who migrated from the Upper Nile/Great Lakes and into the ancient Sahara via Lake Chad (as shown the map above); as opposed to the Niger-Congo speakers entering the ancient Sahara much earlier with the Afrisan expansion (what I'm arguing). What evidence is there to suggest a unified migration of Nilo-Saharans and Niger-Congo speakers from Eastern Africa/The Nile Valley (their origins) into the ancient Sahara via Lake Chad? I used to try to explain our existence in ancient Egypt (after the recent DNA results of course) in the exact same way, via the ancient Sahara in some sort of affiliation with Nilo-Saharan speakers. The problem is I couldn't find any evidence for this at all! The affinity that Niger-Congo speakers have with pastoralist Nilo-Saharan speakers likely occurred when those Nilotes retreated from the ancient Sahara and onto the Nile Valley with them and the Afrisan speakers. What other area of co-habitation besides that on the Nile between these two different groups of Africans could have allowed for the spreading of agriculture from one to the other?

Here is a claim made by Ehret on how Niger-Congo languages made their way from the Eastern Sudan into West Africa.

The initial warming of climate in the Bølling-Allerød interstadial, 12,700-10,900 BCE, brought increased rainfall and warmer conditions in many African regions. Three sets of peoples, speaking languages of the three language families that predominate across the continent today, probably began their early expansions in this period. Nilo-Saharan peoples spread out in the areas around and east of the middle Nile River in what is today the country of Sudan. Peoples of a second family, Niger-Kordofanian (EDIT: to which Niger-Congo and Bantu are offshoots) , spread across an emerging east-west belt of savanna vegetation from the eastern Sudan to the western Atlantic coast of Africa. In the same era, communities speaking languages of the Erythraic branch of the Afrasian (Afroasiatic) family expanded beyond their origin areas in the Horn of Africa, northward to modern-day Egypt. - Excerpt from : Africa in History by Christopher Ehret

Notice how no evidence is given to support what should be an important and likely large migration of people from Eastern Sudan and into Western Africa along the Savanna belt, and yet people are just accepting it...why? Also interestingly he puts this completely unsupported East-West dispersal of Niger-Congo speakers from the Sudan (the same origin and northward expansion point suggested by the Bantu ancestors) and a straight shot into West Africa at the same time that the "Afrisan" speakers made their northward expansion into Egypt....WOW! Given what we now know shouldn't that sound off some alarms? 

Ehret's entire basis for excluding our "Niger-Congo" speaking Pliocene Sudanese ancestors from that same northward "Afrisan" migration is thought to be based on the fact that ancient Egyptian is "designated" as an "Afrisan" language and the blind assumption is that it has little to no relationship with Niger-Congo. The thing is that that designation of ancient Egyptian as a distinct (from us) "Afrisan" language is an outright lie (source). A lie that many of us (yes me included) fell for. This lie gives off the false impression that ancient Egypt was a "Horner"/Hamitic civilization. At the most Nilo-Saharan loan words are noted by linguists to be substantial, but against the backdrop of an Afro-Asiatic language. Nothing is mentioned about affinity with US. Some of our own (and wannabees) are so silly that they will pretend that these immense links between Niger-Congo and the ancient Egyptian language don't exist or can somehow be dismissed. They will do this just because these findings aren't readily verified through European scientific journals. They still need approval. 

[asante]

Feb 3, 2014 17:17:22 GMT -5 anansi said:

There you go again making use of out dated race concepts and nomenclature,you keep referring to they! as though they! are apart from us! "true Negroes" as opposed to "fake Negroes" in some sort of racial taxonomy,and although you complained about geographical divide you still buy into it.

What I'm saying is what we already know which is that ancient Egypt was comprised of different black African ethnic groups which even broke down into some modern African tribes. One of those distinctive black Africans were the descendants of the Pleistocene Sudanese Nubians/Anu people who were identical to contemporary West Africans. They designated our skull shape as "true negroid". As I stated earlier how else would you label US....we don't even have a collective identity in that respect besides that. The Horner aspect of ancient Egypt was classified as "Brown Mediterranean" (the Naqada series for example). The third main group of the Nile Valley were the Nilotes who came from the ancient Sahara. Their skull shape is often classified as "European" like. According to UNESCO of these outdated racial classifications of the skulls the "Negroid" element US comprised over a third of the overall Dynastic population (33-36% I believe). Our particular African type (or our ancestors) appears to have dominated the the other ethnic tribes. I say this because the pharonic statuary is clearly and overwhelmingly "US" just like the 12,000 year old Sphinx which is the face of the civilization. We have to read into the lines.

A

nd yes we do have a collective name for ourselves it's called Africans

That is contemporary and does not collectively refer to the Niger-Congo speaking populations with the characteristically "True Negroid" skull variation. The word "African" is a label that no group of Africans ever used to refer to themselves and their continent as before Europeans arrived.

the above complaint about Bantu and others having specific names for themselves is based solely on language but not in looks,as they and others differed widely in terms of social organization,the people on the Niger also varies in social organization and looks,

My problem with your approach to this is that you keep trying to use these known buffer zone African populations as the center piece for why these obvious distinctions cannot be made. We know that in the Sahel region in around Niger and Chad is where a likely already infused Afrisan and "Bantu" population migrated from Eastern Africa during their expansion. We also know that these populations are also heavily influenced by Nilotes who would later inhabit the ancient Sahara. We pretty much know the situation with these people and this is why they have not been used in any of my examples. The Tutsis are another example. We know that the reason for the relative gracileness of this Bantu population is due to slight Nilotic admixture. Fulani are the same. They are found to have admixture with Berbers (the Hamitic strain). Admixture with different black African groups explains these physical variations.

the event that took some folks into Western Africa most likely had to do with the drying of the Sahara,while in the green Sahara folks moved back and forth as there was no divide.

The maps that you are showing indicate the migration patterns of Nilo-Saharans not Niger-Congo speakers. Those are two different groups of black Africans with two different histories. The fact is there is no evidence that this migration of Nilo-Saharans brought Niger-Congo speakers into the ancient Sahara. Why doesn't West African oral tradition recall a co-migration of Nilo-Saharans and our ancestors into the ancient Sahara? What supports this?

You do understand the significance of the maps above,look at the dates on the first map and correspondence of
the spread of pottery and other shared technology right across the continent of the second map.

Importance yes; relevance to the placement of Niger-Congo speakers no!

As for the bottom half of your post, that have very little to do with development in Africa and more to do with a tip of the hat to Mike.

I mean to me Mike is just pointing out and explaining how did WE end up being depicted in these places along this same migration route that brings two black African groups into Europe (ancient Iberia-Etruscans and ancient Turkey-Greece). Who are you expecting to point out that "Negroids" were the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe and subsequently had already established civilization on the continent? This documented and confirmed, but never talked about! It seems as though if a white person isn't bringing this "hidden history" to light then it is "baseless", "far fetched", "unsupported", "wild claims", "desperate" and of course "Afrocentric". So many black people are so scared of that label (I was one) and it's a shame!

Yes Africans moved into other areas outside Africa we all know that,but I hope this is not about non Africans,and for the record making generalization about groups of people calling them albinos can be seen as offensive if used in an off-handed or derogatory manner. '

I can't speak for the individual who created the website on that (though he denies using the word in a derogatory manner), but he is of the belief that white Europeans are the results of Dravidian albinos who migrated into Central Asia. His page does do a good job in explaining this.