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Post by sundiata on Apr 27, 2010 11:50:34 GMT -5
sundiata- if you're referring to the invasions of Taharqa, it was to save Egypt from the Hyksos who sought to outright destroy Egyptian civilization especially in the North. It's true the Kushites destroyed a lot of Egypt and plundered it, but you can't count out the fact they also restored it and didn't want to destroy it. Totally different Egyptianplanet. I know exactly the motives behind the 25th Dynasty conquest, as it was a conquest of restoration in that the Kushites felt they were the rightful heirs to the throne under the authority of Ammon. They actually received full blessings from the Theban priesthood. My article discusses a little known invasion (or more like a plundering) of upper Egypt by armies from Kush and PUNT in the 17th dynasty. I don't think it had much to do with expelling the Hyksos, though there is a kind of contradiction here since they mention the Medjaw as part of this alliance yet the Medjay indeed helped Kamose and Ahmose run the Hyksos out of Egypt and served later as the state police. Can't make heads or tails of that. ^Can anyone else explain this?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 27, 2010 14:11:27 GMT -5
I guess like most peoples all Medjay didn't think alike. Though overwhelmingly pro Egypt, a few were not so gung ho as others. The painted decorations on this cattle skull from a pan-Grave burial in Egypt include a figure of the deceased. The hieroglyphs apparently write his name, Qeskaant. (Oriental Institute Chicago)
I think Medjay service in Egypt goes back to the time of Pan Grave culture. But then again that may've been the Yntyw and not the Medjay proper if indeed the Yntyw aren't just a northern division of Medjay.
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Post by egyptianplanet on Apr 27, 2010 16:22:54 GMT -5
Also, honeylu, those Somalis look very similar to Arabs and other Semitic people. I think that Semites original ancestors originate from Somalia and traveled through Arabia into the Crescent right? I'm sure some Africans who traveled through Egypt and into the Suez canal created the Levantine people such as the Palestinians. However the looks of the Somalis and Arabs is too similar for them not to be related. Yes, this is correct, as I don’t make a distinction between Somalia, Ethiopia, and Eritrea in Ancient times using modern borders. Scholars that previously believed Mesopotamia to be the homeland of Semitic languages were debunked, when it was proven that the Sumerian language was non Semitic. The Scholars that support the African origin of Semitic languages do so because it is part of the Afrasan (Afro-Asiatic ) language family which all originated in Africa. The oldest branch of what is erroneously termed South Arabian Language (which is now extinct) can be found from text in Eritrea. Not only are more members of this branch found in the Horn (14) compared to 7 found in Yemen. The Horn form of Semetic is at least 1000 years older than the Yemen branch. Fleming, Harold 1968. So rather than ‘back-migration’ from Asia, it appears to result from West-East migration from Africa, which is a lot more feasible anyway. The Aksum Kingdom as well as the Sabean Kingdom included parts of Yemen, so I don’t find a reason why the Punt Kingdom could not have included this area as well. The Ezana stone was written much like the Rosetta stone, using Geez, Sabean, and Greek, with Geez being the oldest script. Some scholars believe there is evidence of a proto-Geez spoken as early as 5000 B.C. I do believe the Fulasha of Ethiopia are genetically related to the Yemeni Jews, if I am not mistaken. My next project would be to post photos of these dark-skinned Yemen people, who don’t look much different from other East African groups. Sources:Stuart Munro-Hay, Aksum: An African Civilization of Late Antiquity. Edinburgh: University Press, 1991, pp.57.Herausgegeben von Uhlig, Siegbert. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica, "Ge'ez". Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, 2005, pp. 732. BTW good luck on your exams. I meant more in terms of ancestry than linguistics. That light skinned Somali looks exactly like my Syrian friend Samer. I think the Middle east was dark skinned until the invasians by the lighter skinned Central Asians. I say this because the closer regions of the Middle East are to East Africa, the more the lineages are in common. I say this due to the fact Middle Easterners share a greater genetic affinity to Ethiopians/Somalis/Eritreans than they do to most Europeans.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 27, 2010 22:25:57 GMT -5
Yes, this is correct, as I don’t make a distinction between Somalia, Ethiopia, and Eritrea in Ancient times using modern borders. Scholars that previously believed Mesopotamia to be the homeland of Semitic languages were debunked, when it was proven that the Sumerian language was non Semitic. The Scholars that support the African origin of Semitic languages do so because it is part of the Afrasan (Afro-Asiatic ) language family which all originated in Africa. The oldest branch of what is erroneously termed South Arabian Language (which is now extinct) can be found from text in Eritrea. Not only are more members of this branch found in the Horn (14) compared to 7 found in Yemen. The Horn form of Semetic is at least 1000 years older than the Yemen branch. Fleming, Harold 1968. So rather than ‘back-migration’ from Asia, it appears to result from West-East migration from Africa, which is a lot more feasible anyway. The Aksum Kingdom as well as the Sabean Kingdom included parts of Yemen, so I don’t find a reason why the Punt Kingdom could not have included this area as well. The Ezana stone was written much like the Rosetta stone, using Geez, Sabean, and Greek, with Geez being the oldest script. Some scholars believe there is evidence of a proto-Geez spoken as early as 5000 B.C. I do believe the Fulasha of Ethiopia are genetically related to the Yemeni Jews, if I am not mistaken. My next project would be to post photos of these dark-skinned Yemen people, who don’t look much different from other East African groups. Sources:Stuart Munro-Hay, Aksum: An African Civilization of Late Antiquity. Edinburgh: University Press, 1991, pp.57.Herausgegeben von Uhlig, Siegbert. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica, "Ge'ez". Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, 2005, pp. 732. BTW good luck on your exams. I meant more in terms of ancestry than linguistics. That light skinned Somali looks exactly like my Syrian friend Samer. I think the Middle east was dark skinned until the invasians by the lighter skinned Central Asians. I say this because the closer regions of the Middle East are to East Africa, the more the lineages are in common. I say this due to the fact Middle Easterners share a greater genetic affinity to Ethiopians/Somalis/Eritreans than they do to most Europeans. Just wondering, what do you mean by "light skinnned"? Are you talking about those two Somali boys another poster justed posted, if yes, they're obviously not "light skinned"! Anyways, I'll be posting in a little bit, I don't have enough time now.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 28, 2010 5:45:38 GMT -5
E-planet, the reason I mentioned the Falasha (Ethiopians) in the other post, is because Keita did a study on this group to determine the geographic origins of “ Haplotype V” , because others have mis-labeled this as an “Arabic” haplotype, which is incorrect. He found the highest frequency amongst some ‘Berber’ groups and this particular Ethiopian group, to prove that the MCRA(Most Common Recent Ancestor) of this particular haplotype is in fact of African origins. Now there is not always a correlation between skin complexion and Haplotype, so just because two people are of different complexions , doesn’t mean they can’t still share the same Haplotype, and vice versa. (Look at the various Black and White twins for further clarification). So to answer your question, yes, some Yemenites originated in Africa, and by contrast some African groups originated in Yemen, which is to be expected for a geographic location so close together. One would expect back and forth migrations between the two areas. It is foolish to ever assume there was only one-way migration. (Not claiming you suggested this, before you become defensive) but several racist types like to suggest that Africans only migrated to other countries as slaves, which is an extremely biased position which only looks at a certain time frame in human history. There were several migrations that took place long before the onset of the Arab/African slave trade. We’re looking at periods that coincide with other historical events, such as the rise of Judaism in East Africa and Yemen. I guess everyone has different perceptions when it comes to complexions, because the dude you called light skinned would be considered dark skinned from another’s perspective. Now back to the topic: I am only speculating here based on the products being delivered, because I don’t read hiergolyphics< I relied on Al Takruri’s interpretation from another thread. The 3rd register, “prince of southern lands” which doesn’t specify “Punt” leads me to speculate that baboons were imported from other African countries as well. As for the Puntites (who obviously vary in skin color) the main products being delivered appear to be, baboons, ebony, ivory, some sort of tree, frankincense, myrrh, goats, wild animals, and a few manufactured products such as jewelry and pottery. Register 1 represents the Puntites according to Al Takruri’s translation. ETA; to self-correct/remove a previous post indicating that I could only find Ebony trees indigenous to Kenya, after further research I was able to find that it is in fact native to both Eritrea and Ethiopia. www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/Products/AFDbases/af/asp/SpeciesInfo.asp?SpID=643
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 28, 2010 13:18:32 GMT -5
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on modern names and borders rather than being subjective. No where did I find in any of your lengthy posts indication that Punt was just a small city state. If you look at the MODERN borders of these regions,(created by COLONIALIST), it's easy to see how the land of Punt could have encompassed these BORDERS in Ancient times. One could arrive in the west coast of Yemen by a row boat, the strait was much more narrower in those times, probably like crossing the Nile River from the East Bank to the West Bank, and we don't really know what the borders were of the lands then. When I say wider geographic location, I mean not restricted within the borders of the modern day countries. Have any of you looked to see where Frankincense in namely located. Even if you rule out Yemen, which is not a problem, I don't believe Somali could be ruled out just based on a simple Baboon. "Today, the frankincense-yielding areas in Somalia are still extensive, but the trees are confined to mountain areas, which makes collection difficult; the stands on the coast have long since been destroyed. The trees introduced into Egypt have like wise vanished, and only the bas-reliefs in Thebes are left to tell the story of the wonderland of Punt." www.fao.org/docrep/e3200e/e3200e03.htm"Two Somali young men with a day's collection. Frankincense is collected in mountain regions. " "The frankincense tree grows in arid regions of the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia). The tree’s amber-colored resin, collected through an incision in the bark." wysinger.homestead.com/punt.htmlThis has nothing to do with modern borders, but your suggestion that ancient political entities or labels were always in reference to the entire Horn of Africa region is illogical and unrealistic. Punt was ruled by an elite class, with a established monarch. Are you suggesting that one monarch politically represented the entire Horn of African region. Sorry but nothing that I have had observed supports that. Actually no. Nobodies saying that the Land of Punt , historically, was exclusivally located inside the modern borders of the modern day nation of Eritrea or the present province of the Red Sea Hills/Eastern Sudan. But science supports that it was roughly confined to that general area. evidence which supports that the Land of Punt was strictly confined to one general region, Eritrea and Eastern Sudan. "..most of present day Eritrea was comprised of the ancient Kingdom of Punt, whose rulers dominated the area for a thousand years until about 1,000 B.C. (see, for instance, Longrigg 1945:11). In this respect, this particular area has one of Sub-Saharan Africa's oldest traditions of state-formations."— professor Kjetil Tronvoll Mai Weini, a highland village in Eritrea, By Kjetil Tronvoll, 1996 "Upon Hatsheput's arrival to Punt, her Egyptian troops and commander were greeted by the king of Punt called Parehu, along beside him was his wife, Aty, their two sons and daughter (see photo on the right of Parehu and Aty). Behind them is their town; the houses are built on piles and entered by ladders, while palms growing beside them overshadow them. Aty's Obessity has been much speculated upon; as their daughter shows much the same tendency." "The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack." A region does not act on it's own, the Egyptians were very detailed when describing the various kingdoms to the south, i.e. Nubia, and the fact that they describe the Land of Punt as one is very significant. Also, Eritrea/Eastern Sudan are the only possible region in where there is an urban culture with direct influencial links to Egypt and Kush. "The earliest evidence of agriculture, urban settlement and trade in Eritrea was found in the western region of the country consisting of archeological remains dating back to 3500 BC in sites called the Gash group. Based on the archaeological evidence, there seems to have been a connection between the peoples of the Gash group and the civilizations of the Nile Valley namely Ancient Egypt and Nubia. Ancient Egyptian sources also give references to cities and trading posts along the southwestern Red Sea coast, roughly corresponding to modern day Eritrea" "Ancient Egyptian texts are consistent in connecting the location of Punt with the Red Sea, but scholars have not agreed upon its precise location. Modern academic consensus places Punt in the area of Eritrea, northern Ethiopia, or the southeastern Beja lands of Sudan." Also, lets disconnect Yemen from Eritrea, the Egyptians were latter in contact with peoples in modern day Yemen, and in no way did they see the two as one. Also the myth that Frankincense and Myrrh are only restricted to Somalia is a myth, these two components are found extensively in areas like the Eastern Sudan, Eritrea, and Ethiopia. "The presence of teff in 4th dynasty pyramid bricks of the Dashur Pyramid supports this theory, as teff only grows in the Eritrean Highlands and Ethiopian highlands. Modern attempts to classify the flora and fauna from Punt also suggests that Punt may have been located in this region. Myrrh trees from Hatshepsut's trading expedition to Punt are shown being loaded onto Egyptian ships in the second terrace of her funerary temple at Deir El Bahari. Evidence that these trees were "replanted in the temple of Deir El-Bahri" is suggested "from the surviving traces of tree-pits" found here." Another factor that discounts Somalia is location. Time, it should be emphasised, was of the essence. The Trade Winds dictated that ships from Egypt, sailing at perhaps 30 miles a day, had to travel during the three or so summer months, June to August, when the wind blew southwards, and had to complete their trading enterprise, doubtless no rapid affair, by November, when the winter winds began to blow in the opposite direction. Southbound vessels probably needed about a month to reach the northern Eritrean area, about the same time again to arrive at the coast opposite Aden, and a further month to reach Cape Guardafui (in Somalia). The southerly winds would by then be abating. It would therefore appear doubtful whether Egyptian commercial navigators could have easily sailed much further in the time permitted to them by nature. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4 One of the most significant information of late that makes a very strong case that Punt was a kingdom neighboring upon Kush Kingdom (and one that disproves it being in Yemen or as distant as Somalia or Tanzania) is with the recent 2003 arechological discovery that shows Kush, along with Punt and other neighboring kingdoms joined in force to invade and sucessufully defeat the Ancient Egyptians. It may further be urged that the northernmost area, what is now the Eritrean coast, probably constituted the most frequently visited African section of Punt. The area's northerly location, and consequent relative proximity to Egypt, would have given its trade a significant edge over that of more distant areas, such as the Somali country. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 28, 2010 13:40:24 GMT -5
Also, honeylu, those Somalis look very similar to Arabs and other Semitic people. I think that Semites original ancestors originate from Somalia and traveled through Arabia into the Crescent right? I'm sure some Africans who traveled through Egypt and into the Suez canal created the Levantine people such as the Palestinians. However the looks of the Somalis and Arabs is too similar for them not to be related. Yes, this is correct, as I don’t make a distinction between Somalia, Ethiopia, and Eritrea in Ancient times using modern borders. Scholars that previously believed Mesopotamia to be the homeland of Semitic languages were debunked, when it was proven that the Sumerian language was non Semitic. The Scholars that support the African origin of Semitic languages do so because it is part of the Afrasan (Afro-Asiatic ) language family which all originated in Africa. The oldest branch of what is erroneously termed South Arabian Language (which is now extinct) can be found from text in Eritrea. Not only are more members of this branch found in the Horn (14) compared to 7 found in Yemen. The Horn form of Semetic is at least 1000 years older than the Yemen branch. Fleming, Harold 1968. So rather than ‘back-migration’ from Asia, it appears to result from West-East migration from Africa, which is a lot more feasible anyway. The Aksum Kingdom as well as the Sabean Kingdom included parts of Yemen, so I don’t find a reason why the Punt Kingdom could not have included this area as well. The Ezana stone was written much like the Rosetta stone, using Geez, Sabean, and Greek, with Geez being the oldest script. Some scholars believe there is evidence of a proto-Geez spoken as early as 5000 B.C. I do believe the Fulasha of Ethiopia are genetically related to the Yemeni Jews, if I am not mistaken. My next project would be to post photos of these dark-skinned Yemen people, who don’t look much different from other East African groups. Sources:Stuart Munro-Hay, Aksum: An African Civilization of Late Antiquity. Edinburgh: University Press, 1991, pp.57.Herausgegeben von Uhlig, Siegbert. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica, "Ge'ez". Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag, 2005, pp. 732. BTW good luck on your exams. I agree with mush of what your saying, other then your assuming on the connection between Punt and Yemen. First off, the Aksumite Empire accuired land in modern day Yemen through conquest, it was not always a part of that ancient African empire. The state established its hegemony over the declining Kingdom of Kush and regularly entered the politics of the kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula, and would eventually extend its rule over the region with the conquest of the Himyarite Kingdom (Yemen). The Sabaean Kingdom is largly geographically southwestern Arabian, it's biological affiliations can be debated. But it's history is predominatly confined to Yemen, so I don't see your reason to look at them seperatly. "The Sabaeans or Sabæans (Arabic: السبأيين) were an ancient people speaking an Old South Arabian language who lived in what is today Yemen, in the south west of the Arabian Peninsula." Also, the earliest cultures of the Eritrean and Eastern Sudanese regions, i.e. Gash group aka Land of Punt, were highly distinct from those found in Yemen or even Northern Ethiopia, theres no evidence of extensive commonality between the two groups. Yemeni culture started to parallel those in Eastern Africa due to East African influence and to an extent the commonality between the ancient African groups in Yemen and western Arabia with those from Africa. But the culture of Punt is almost exactly confined to Eritrea and the Eastern Sudan. Also, you should draw distinctions between ancient Horn of African groups, they may not represent the modern borders, but they are distinctions; for example, Beja speaking peoples in the Sudan and Eritrea and Omotic and southern Cushitic speaking people in Southern Ethiopia. Actually no, Ethiopian Jews from what I understand are very genetically African, in that they received their religion without any Middle Eastern admixture; the relationship shared between Ethiopian Jews and Yemeni Jews is of African origin. "Similarly, the commmonest type in the Ethiopian Jewish sample is also present in the non-Jewish Ethiopian sample and occurs in the worldwide mtDNA database only in Somalia (Watson et al. 1997). Other high-frequency haplotypes in the Ethiopian Jewish sample are also found almost entirely in Africa (data not shown). The lack of an indication of a Middle Eastern origin for these haplotypes, on the basis of the Richards database, makes local recruitment a more reasonable explanation in these two cases." (pp. 1415, 1417)" "One point in which Yemenite Jews appear to differ from Ashkenazi Jews and most Near Eastern Jewish communities is in the proportion of sub-Saharan African maternally-transferred gene types which have entered their gene pools. One study found that some Arabic-speaking populations—Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouins—have what appears to be substantial mtDNA gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, amounting to 10-15% of lineages within the past three millennia. In the case of Yemenites, the average is actually higher then 35%." A study performed by the Department of Biological Sciences at Stanford University found a possible genetic similarity between 11 Ethiopian Jews and 4 Yemenite Jews who took part in the testing. The differentiation statistic and genetic distances for the 11 Ethiopian Jews and 4 Yemenite Jews tested were quite low, among the smallest of comparisons that involved either of these populations. Ethiopian Jewish Y-Chromosomal haplotype are often present in Yemenite and other Jewish populations, but analysis of Y-Chromosomal haplotype frequencies does not indicate a close relationship between Ethiopian Jewish groups. It is possible that the 4 Yemenite Jews from this study may be descendants of reverse migrants of African origin, who crossed Ethiopia to Yemen. The result from this study suggests that gene flow between Ethiopia and Yemen as a possible explanation. The study also suggests that the gene flow between Ethiopian and Yemenite Jewish populations may not have been direct, but instead could have been between Jewish and non-Jewish populations of both regions.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 28, 2010 13:49:44 GMT -5
So to answer your question, yes, some Yemenites originated in Africa, and by contrast some African groups originated in Yemen, which is to be expected for a geographic location so close together. One would expect back and forth migrations between the two areas. It is foolish to ever assume there was only one-way migration. (Not claiming you suggested this, before you become defensive) but several racist types like to suggest that Africans only migrated to other countries as slaves, which is an extremely biased position which only looks at a certain time frame in human history. There were several migrations that took place long before the onset of the Arab/African slave trade. We’re looking at periods that coincide with other historical events, such as the rise of Judaism in East Africa and Yemen. What East African groups originated in Yemen? From what I understand, "Eurasian" geneflow into East Africa during historic and modern times only accounts up to 2% of the modern Northern Ethiopian/Eritrean genepool. So therefore making it very likely that the predominant geneflow was West-East. Another thing is that the signifcant African component in Yemen and Arabia surpasses any Eurasian element in Eastern Africa, therefore any historic geneflow from Arabia would have had been "weak" to the already African presense in Southwest Asia. Certain geneflows are more predominant then others, in this case the African affiliated geneflow is stronger, due to various reasons. Another example is the dominant geneflow from southern locals into Northern Africa then those moving southwards. Also, like I've said before, both Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews are of clearly African descent, so any historic admixture due to Judaism had an obvious African bias.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 29, 2010 4:02:07 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with modern borders, but your suggestion that ancient political entities or labels were always in reference to the entire Horn of Africa region is illogical and unrealistic. Punt was ruled by an elite class, with a established monarch. Are you suggesting that one monarch politically represented the entire Horn of African region. Sorry but nothing that I have had observed supports that. Actually no. Nobodies saying that the Land of Punt , historically, was exclusivally located inside the modern borders of the modern day nation of Eritrea or the present province of the Red Sea Hills/Eastern Sudan. But science supports that it was roughly confined to that general area. evidence which supports that the Land of Punt was strictly confined to one general region, Eritrea and Eastern Sudan. "..most of present day Eritrea was comprised of the ancient Kingdom of Punt, whose rulers dominated the area for a thousand years until about 1,000 B.C. (see, for instance, Longrigg 1945:11). In this respect, this particular area has one of Sub-Saharan Africa's oldest traditions of state-formations."— professor Kjetil Tronvoll Mai Weini, a highland village in Eritrea, By Kjetil Tronvoll, 1996 "Upon Hatsheput's arrival to Punt, her Egyptian troops and commander were greeted by the king of Punt called Parehu, along beside him was his wife, Aty, their two sons and daughter (see photo on the right of Parehu and Aty). Behind them is their town; the houses are built on piles and entered by ladders, while palms growing beside them overshadow them. Aty's Obessity has been much speculated upon; as their daughter shows much the same tendency." "The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack." A region does not act on it's own, the Egyptians were very detailed when describing the various kingdoms to the south, i.e. Nubia, and the fact that they describe the Land of Punt as one is very significant. Also, Eritrea/Eastern Sudan are the only possible region in where there is an urban culture with direct influencial links to Egypt and Kush. "The earliest evidence of agriculture, urban settlement and trade in Eritrea was found in the western region of the country consisting of archeological remains dating back to 3500 BC in sites called the Gash group. Based on the archaeological evidence, there seems to have been a connection between the peoples of the Gash group and the civilizations of the Nile Valley namely Ancient Egypt and Nubia. Ancient Egyptian sources also give references to cities and trading posts along the southwestern Red Sea coast, roughly corresponding to modern day Eritrea" "Ancient Egyptian texts are consistent in connecting the location of Punt with the Red Sea, but scholars have not agreed upon its precise location. Modern academic consensus places Punt in the area of Eritrea, northern Ethiopia, or the southeastern Beja lands of Sudan." Also, lets disconnect Yemen from Eritrea, the Egyptians were latter in contact with peoples in modern day Yemen, and in no way did they see the two as one. Also the myth that Frankincense and Myrrh are only restricted to Somalia is a myth, these two components are found extensively in areas like the Eastern Sudan, Eritrea, and Ethiopia. "The presence of teff in 4th dynasty pyramid bricks of the Dashur Pyramid supports this theory, as teff only grows in the Eritrean Highlands and Ethiopian highlands. Modern attempts to classify the flora and fauna from Punt also suggests that Punt may have been located in this region. Myrrh trees from Hatshepsut's trading expedition to Punt are shown being loaded onto Egyptian ships in the second terrace of her funerary temple at Deir El Bahari. Evidence that these trees were "replanted in the temple of Deir El-Bahri" is suggested "from the surviving traces of tree-pits" found here." Another factor that discounts Somalia is location. Time, it should be emphasised, was of the essence. The Trade Winds dictated that ships from Egypt, sailing at perhaps 30 miles a day, had to travel during the three or so summer months, June to August, when the wind blew southwards, and had to complete their trading enterprise, doubtless no rapid affair, by November, when the winter winds began to blow in the opposite direction. Southbound vessels probably needed about a month to reach the northern Eritrean area, about the same time again to arrive at the coast opposite Aden, and a further month to reach Cape Guardafui (in Somalia). The southerly winds would by then be abating. It would therefore appear doubtful whether Egyptian commercial navigators could have easily sailed much further in the time permitted to them by nature. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4 One of the most significant information of late that makes a very strong case that Punt was a kingdom neighboring upon Kush Kingdom (and one that disproves it being in Yemen or as distant as Somalia or Tanzania) is with the recent 2003 arechological discovery that shows Kush, along with Punt and other neighboring kingdoms joined in force to invade and sucessufully defeat the Ancient Egyptians. It may further be urged that the northernmost area, what is now the Eritrean coast, probably constituted the most frequently visited African section of Punt. The area's northerly location, and consequent relative proximity to Egypt, would have given its trade a significant edge over that of more distant areas, such as the Somali country. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4 Somalia is not as distant from Eritrea as you would have us believe, all one has to do is look at a map of the area in question. Dr. Scientia, although your arguments show a strong support of Eritrean origins of the Kindom of Punt, which no one is refuting, it doesn't prove where the BORDERS of this kingdom began and ended. When I saythat it could have encompassed the borders, don't miscontrue this statement to suggest that ALL of Somalia had to be included within those borders. And the point made about the "gulf" of Somalia being too far away for the AE to dock their ships, has little credibility IMO, based on the geography of the area in question. Even if they docked their ships in what is now defined as Eritrea, doesn't LIMIT this area to the Kingdom of Punt, it's like saying that docking their ships on the Red Sea Coast, LIMITS the land of Kemet to an area such as Hurghada, for instance. We can speculate that if the Kemet used the Red Sea as a traveling Route, they had a very far distance to travel over land just to reach the coast from Thebes. They had to past through the massive western deserts which lie between present day Luxor, and the Red Sea Coast, just to travel by this route. So why is it not feasible that the Puntites area could have expanded beyond the coast of Eritrea, even if the ships didn't travel around to the Gulf area. Actually no, Ethiopian Jews from what I understand are very genetically African, in that they received their religion without any Middle Eastern admixture; the relationship shared between Ethiopian Jews and Yemeni Jews is of African origin. This appears to be a strawmen, as I have already shown that the Fulasha (Ethiopian Jews) are of African Origin using the V haplotype, please re-read my statement. Another thing is that the signifcant African component in Yemen and Arabia surpasses any Eurasian element in Eastern Africa, therefore any historic geneflow from Arabia would have had been "weak" to the already African presense in Southwest Asia. Certain geneflows are more predominant then others, in this case the African affiliated geneflow is stronger, due to various reasons. Another example is the dominant geneflow from southern locals into Northern Africa then those moving southwards. Also, like I've said before, both Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews are of clearly African descent, so any historic admixture due to Judaism had an obvious African bias. Going past the rise of Judaism to the rise of Islam, there is also an east-west flow of genes. Throughout different phases of history the flow between these closely linked geographic locations flowed both ways, it could be between individuals, not necessarily an entire population. See the following link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/“A high proportion of Ethiopian lineages, significantly more abundant in the northeast of that country, trace their western Eurasian origin in haplogroup N through assorted gene flow at different times and involving different source populations.”
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 29, 2010 9:56:22 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with modern borders, but your suggestion that ancient political entities or labels were always in reference to the entire Horn of Africa region is illogical and unrealistic. Punt was ruled by an elite class, with a established monarch. Are you suggesting that one monarch politically represented the entire Horn of African region. Sorry but nothing that I have had observed supports that. Actually no. Nobodies saying that the Land of Punt , historically, was exclusivally located inside the modern borders of the modern day nation of Eritrea or the present province of the Red Sea Hills/Eastern Sudan. But science supports that it was roughly confined to that general area. evidence which supports that the Land of Punt was strictly confined to one general region, Eritrea and Eastern Sudan. "..most of present day Eritrea was comprised of the ancient Kingdom of Punt, whose rulers dominated the area for a thousand years until about 1,000 B.C. (see, for instance, Longrigg 1945:11). In this respect, this particular area has one of Sub-Saharan Africa's oldest traditions of state-formations."— professor Kjetil Tronvoll Mai Weini, a highland village in Eritrea, By Kjetil Tronvoll, 1996 "Upon Hatsheput's arrival to Punt, her Egyptian troops and commander were greeted by the king of Punt called Parehu, along beside him was his wife, Aty, their two sons and daughter (see photo on the right of Parehu and Aty). Behind them is their town; the houses are built on piles and entered by ladders, while palms growing beside them overshadow them. Aty's Obessity has been much speculated upon; as their daughter shows much the same tendency." "The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack." A region does not act on it's own, the Egyptians were very detailed when describing the various kingdoms to the south, i.e. Nubia, and the fact that they describe the Land of Punt as one is very significant. Also, Eritrea/Eastern Sudan are the only possible region in where there is an urban culture with direct influencial links to Egypt and Kush. "The earliest evidence of agriculture, urban settlement and trade in Eritrea was found in the western region of the country consisting of archeological remains dating back to 3500 BC in sites called the Gash group. Based on the archaeological evidence, there seems to have been a connection between the peoples of the Gash group and the civilizations of the Nile Valley namely Ancient Egypt and Nubia. Ancient Egyptian sources also give references to cities and trading posts along the southwestern Red Sea coast, roughly corresponding to modern day Eritrea" "Ancient Egyptian texts are consistent in connecting the location of Punt with the Red Sea, but scholars have not agreed upon its precise location. Modern academic consensus places Punt in the area of Eritrea, northern Ethiopia, or the southeastern Beja lands of Sudan." Also, lets disconnect Yemen from Eritrea, the Egyptians were latter in contact with peoples in modern day Yemen, and in no way did they see the two as one. Also the myth that Frankincense and Myrrh are only restricted to Somalia is a myth, these two components are found extensively in areas like the Eastern Sudan, Eritrea, and Ethiopia. "The presence of teff in 4th dynasty pyramid bricks of the Dashur Pyramid supports this theory, as teff only grows in the Eritrean Highlands and Ethiopian highlands. Modern attempts to classify the flora and fauna from Punt also suggests that Punt may have been located in this region. Myrrh trees from Hatshepsut's trading expedition to Punt are shown being loaded onto Egyptian ships in the second terrace of her funerary temple at Deir El Bahari. Evidence that these trees were "replanted in the temple of Deir El-Bahri" is suggested "from the surviving traces of tree-pits" found here." Another factor that discounts Somalia is location. Time, it should be emphasised, was of the essence. The Trade Winds dictated that ships from Egypt, sailing at perhaps 30 miles a day, had to travel during the three or so summer months, June to August, when the wind blew southwards, and had to complete their trading enterprise, doubtless no rapid affair, by November, when the winter winds began to blow in the opposite direction. Southbound vessels probably needed about a month to reach the northern Eritrean area, about the same time again to arrive at the coast opposite Aden, and a further month to reach Cape Guardafui (in Somalia). The southerly winds would by then be abating. It would therefore appear doubtful whether Egyptian commercial navigators could have easily sailed much further in the time permitted to them by nature. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4 One of the most significant information of late that makes a very strong case that Punt was a kingdom neighboring upon Kush Kingdom (and one that disproves it being in Yemen or as distant as Somalia or Tanzania) is with the recent 2003 arechological discovery that shows Kush, along with Punt and other neighboring kingdoms joined in force to invade and sucessufully defeat the Ancient Egyptians. It may further be urged that the northernmost area, what is now the Eritrean coast, probably constituted the most frequently visited African section of Punt. The area's northerly location, and consequent relative proximity to Egypt, would have given its trade a significant edge over that of more distant areas, such as the Somali country. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4 Somalia is not as distant from Eritrea as you would have us believe, all one has to do is look at a map of the area in question. Dr. Scientia, although your arguments show a strong support of Eritrean origins of the Kindom of Punt, which no one is refuting, it doesn't prove where the BORDERS of this kingdom began and ended. When I saythat it could have encompassed the borders, don't miscontrue this statement to suggest that ALL of Somalia had to be included within those borders. And the point made about the "gulf" of Somalia being too far away for the AE to dock their ships, has little credibility IMO, based on the geography of the area in question. Even if they docked their ships in what is now defined as Eritrea, doesn't LIMIT this area to the Kingdom of Punt, it's like saying that docking their ships on the Red Sea Coast, LIMITS the land of Kemet to an area such as Hurghada, for instance. We can speculate that if the Kemet used the Red Sea as a traveling Route, they had a very far distance to travel over land just to reach the coast from Thebes. They had to past through the massive western deserts which lie between present day Luxor, and the Red Sea Coast, just to travel by this route. So why is it not feasible that the Puntites area could have expanded beyond the coast of Eritrea, even if the ships didn't travel around to the Gulf area. This appears to be a strawmen, as I have already shown that the Fulasha (Ethiopian Jews) are of African Origin using the V haplotype, please re-read my statement. Another thing is that the signifcant African component in Yemen and Arabia surpasses any Eurasian element in Eastern Africa, therefore any historic geneflow from Arabia would have had been "weak" to the already African presense in Southwest Asia. Certain geneflows are more predominant then others, in this case the African affiliated geneflow is stronger, due to various reasons. Another example is the dominant geneflow from southern locals into Northern Africa then those moving southwards. Also, like I've said before, both Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews are of clearly African descent, so any historic admixture due to Judaism had an obvious African bias. Going past the rise of Judaism to the rise of Islam, there is also an east-west flow of genes. Throughout different phases of history the flow between these closely linked geographic locations flowed both ways, it could be between individuals, not necessarily an entire population. See the following link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182106/“A high proportion of Ethiopian lineages, significantly more abundant in the northeast of that country, trace their western Eurasian origin in haplogroup N through assorted gene flow at different times and involving different source populations.” Your simply repeating what I just said; I specifically stated that while the general region of the Land of Punt would have had been located in the general location of the Eastern Sudan and Eritrea, the possibility that it also ,to an extent, reached further east into Dijibouti and northwestern Somalia, and likely even south into northern Ethiopia is very realistic and plausible. But from what I understand, the areas of Eritrea and the Eastern Sudan are mush more linked to that of Punt, then Somalia. It's only in Eritrea/Eastern Sudan, where there is evidence of any urban culture being in place during that time period, with obvious links to both "Egypt" and "Nubia", meaning they were in frequent contact with each other. The Gash culture, which is frequently linked with Punt, is limited to both the Eastern Sudan and Eritrea. There's no evidence of it extending into Somalia. In regard to my supposed "straw-man" arguement... You stated that both the Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews may have experienced gene-flow between each other, I simiply clarified that the gene-flow was mainly due to African-to-Arabian patterns, and that while the Ethiopian Jews were exclusively African, the Yemeni peoples were of obvious mixed decent. Individuals are not significant enough to donate gene-flow, the East-West geneflow into the Horn of Africa, was extremely small in comparison to that of the West-East geneflow; as I've stated before the Eurasian geneflow into the Horn during recent and historic times is only 2%.
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Post by sundiata on Apr 29, 2010 10:54:39 GMT -5
I guess like most peoples all Medjay didn't think alike. Though overwhelmingly pro Egypt, a few were not so gung ho as others. The painted decorations on this cattle skull from a pan-Grave burial in Egypt include a figure of the deceased. The hieroglyphs apparently write his name, Qeskaant. (Oriental Institute Chicago)
I think Medjay service in Egypt goes back to the time of Pan Grave culture. But then again that may've been the Yntyw and not the Medjay proper if indeed the Yntyw aren't just a northern division of Medjay. Thanks Al Takuri.. Come to think of it, this also finds support in the Roman literature. When the Romans were paying tribute to the Blemmyes, there were constant appeals to their "chief" because he couldn't seem to control the independent raids on southern Egypt.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 29, 2010 11:03:31 GMT -5
^^ Besides the above thread, where did you "specifically" state that parts of Punt could have extended into Somalia? Everything I read from you seems to support rejecting Somalia as a possible location. And the irony of it all, is that Eritrea is much closer to Yemen than Somalia is, if this is your line of reason for eliminating Somalia.
Please don't put words into my mouth, I made no statements at all about the genetic make-up of Yemen Jews, I only mentioned one specific Haplotype "V" which belongs to Ethiopian Jews.
Also with regards to my ACTUAL statement that SOME Yemenites originated in Africa, and some Africans groups originated in Yemen. You would have to look at different time periods and different genetic studies, both Y and MtDna, which is why I provided you with the link. There are some Yemen people with East African female origins, and others with East African Male origins, and vice versa, these areas are geographically linked..just like Iberia and North Africa, to not recognize two-way migrations, even if you want to call it back-migration for genes that originated FIRST in E.Africa, is unrealistic.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 29, 2010 15:14:40 GMT -5
I specifically said:
"Actually no. Nobodies saying that the Land of Punt , historically, was exclusivally located inside the modern borders of the modern day nation of Eritrea or the present province of the Red Sea Hills/Eastern Sudan. But science supports that it was roughly confined to that general area."
So while I didn't mention Somalia by name, I was obviously refering to areas to the east and to the south of the modern Eritrean and Eastern Sudanese region. But overall everything points to a central point in the modern Eritrean and Eastern Sudanese region; areas in Dijibouti, Northern Ethiopia, and northwestern Somalia are all possible extentions, but untill we find proof tha the Gash-Punt culture and civilization extended into these regions... it's up in the air.
Also note, Punt was most likely the closest Horn of African nation to Egypt, and therefore more familiar; Somalia not being Punt, dosen't eliminate Somalia or Ethiopia as a major local for early African civilization. Both Northern/Central Ethiopia and coastal Somalia are known to have had produced organized urban civilizations in latter periods, further study of those regions can provide us with further and older evidence of politcally active cultures and civilizations... Tigray Ethiopia is already beginning to do so, i.e. a civilization that rivaled Punt from the south.
Yemen has nothing to do with this, and if your refering to the baboons... geography dosen't really matter here, Yemeni and Somali baboons are closely related, while Eritrean and Eastern Sudanese Baboons are biologically distant.
Also, I would have to disagree...
Yemeni groups with African affiliation or origin... yes
African groups with Yemeni affiliation or origin... no
If your refering to the various Ethio-Semitic speaking peoples in Eritrea and Ethiopia, like the Tigray-Tigrinya, Amhahra, and Harari?
^evidence points to an African origin for these groups, again like I said before non-African admixture into these groups during recent or historic times is very limited, 2%, in comparison to that found among the modern Yemeni and Omani peoples, as high as 60%.
You have to ask yourself, what was the most prominant gene-flow and how did these biological influences affect the populations in question both physically and genetically!
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Post by homeylu on Apr 30, 2010 6:33:46 GMT -5
^^ O.K. Dr. S. , I guess I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that any of the various East African Ethnic groups originated in Yemen, I agree, they are 'completely' African in origin. What I was speaking about were individuals within said groups. For example, maybe several members of lets say the Tigray tribe, may have a father or great great grand father who is on Yemen origins..this doesn't mean the Tigray tribe as a whole is of Yemen origins.
Even the same can be said in Yemen, maybe several members of various groups there can trace the origins of one the their grandparents to Ethiopian, Somalia, etc..
Kind of like what you mentioned on another thread (the one about Ciara) maybe she can trace a great grand parent to Ireland..but it doesn't mean she's Irish.
I hope you understand what I mean now, as it appears I was not clear enough before. I mean intermarriages have been taking place with these two geographically connected locations since the dawn of history. Which is why I cannot understand why these scientists would label a haplotype originated in Yemen (Eurasian)..Yemen is now where near Europe, it's much closer geographically to the Horn of Africa, and it's much safer to label such haplotyes as East African or even South West Asian, but definitely not Eurasian, it typically adds to the confusion.
This is what Kittles showed with the V haplotype, that shows up in high frequencies in Egyptian Mummies. This particualar haplotype which originated in East Africa, and appears in high frequencies in Ethiopian Jews, cannot be labeled an Asian/Eurasian haplotype.
OT; They did the same thing with the so-called cohen haplotype, belonging to the Jewish priestly clan, and found that the highest frequencies of this particular haplotype was in Yemeni Jews, and the Buba Clan (Black Jews of South Africa). So when it doesn't fit their historical accounts, they resort to imagination.
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Post by doctorisscientia on May 1, 2010 13:48:14 GMT -5
^^ O.K. Dr. S. , I guess I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that any of the various East African Ethnic groups originated in Yemen, I agree, they are 'completely' African in origin. What I was speaking about were individuals within said groups. For example, maybe several members of lets say the Tigray tribe, may have a father or great great grand father who is on Yemen origins..this doesn't mean the Tigray tribe as a whole is of Yemen origins. Even the same can be said in Yemen, maybe several members of various groups there can trace the origins of one the their grandparents to Ethiopian, Somalia, etc.. Kind of like what you mentioned on another thread (the one about Ciara) maybe she can trace a great grand parent to Ireland..but it doesn't mean she's Irish. I hope you understand what I mean now, as it appears I was not clear enough before. I mean intermarriages have been taking place with these two geographically connected locations since the dawn of history. Which is why I cannot understand why these scientists would label a haplotype originated in Yemen (Eurasian)..Yemen is now where near Europe, it's much closer geographically to the Horn of Africa, and it's much safer to label such haplotyes as East African or even South West Asian, but definitely not Eurasian, it typically adds to the confusion. This is what Kittles showed with the V haplotype, that shows up in high frequencies in Egyptian Mummies. This particualar haplotype which originated in East Africa, and appears in high frequencies in Ethiopian Jews, cannot be labeled an Asian/Eurasian haplotype. OT; They did the same thing with the so-called cohen haplotype, belonging to the Jewish priestly clan, and found that the highest frequencies of this particular haplotype was in Yemeni Jews, and the Buba Clan (Black Jews of South Africa). So when it doesn't fit their historical accounts, they resort to imagination. Gotcha... your right! I did not exactly understand the point you were trying to make in regard to admixture, previously; but now that I do, I completely understand your perspective. True, some biased geneticist try to exaggerate any small amounts of non-"African" admixture among some African groups in order to basically white-wash that specific culture or peoples. Even when similar amounts of admixture are found among European groups; but instead of pointing out the non-European admixture, they try to reduce it's importance. For example, suggesting a slave origin for such admixture... for example, Spain and Sicily. 100% agree, the term Eurasian is simply an umbrella term in order to merge diverse and largely non-related peoples together, in the name of eurocentrism. What I hate even more is when they use the term "European" to describe haplogroups largely found in the areas of Southwest and Central Asia, in order to propose a European presence in those said areas. A great example is in regard to the ancient Western Chinese populations who carry both Southwest/Southern Asian and East Asian haplogroups, but recently scientists have often called these Southwest/Southern Asian haplogroups "European". It's as if "European" and "Eurasian" have become the replacements for the outdated "Caucasian".
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