African written history?

[fromnothing]

I made this post in another forum without much success. I'm wondering if anyone in this one has more knowledge on the topic.


Just to clarify, I'm referring to Africa south of the Sahara. I hear numerous accounts about written scripts found in Sub-Saharan Africa. From the Mali Empire, Songhai, and Hausa kingdoms and all of the Swahili states that minted their own coins bearing Arabic scripts. And of course the Ethiopians who still use their own indigenous script to this day. I'm already well aware that there were plenty of literate states in S.S Africa. However any and every time there are any references to the history of Africa (including the previously mentioned states) it seems to always reference North African, Arabic, or European sources. Were the S.S. nations simply not using their script for recording history? Was it used specifically for math, science, and religion? Timbuktu has over 700,000 manuscripts dating from the 1200s yet all references I see about the empire come from Egypt, Morocco, and griots. Why not refer to the 700,000 scripts in Mali? The Swahili coast were very advanced with stone buildings, sewage systems, sail ships and used Arabic writing systems. Where are all of their books? Were they not used for recording history? Yet again... where are the written accounts of these places? The Gedi Ruins are lost to history due to lack of written records. Why?

[zarahan]

Well keep in mind that there are written histories in the various kingdoms,
using the Arabic script. This is nothing unusual. All the right wing idiots
you see online talking bout "Africa failed to develop writing" are not only
wrong, but are too dumb to realize that Europe itself "failed" to develop
indigenous writing, and Europe itself had to import "outside" scripts via
the people of the Middle East. Therefore the question arises: So what if some
areas of Africa used Arabic script? Hell Europe itself is no better and had to
import outside script and a bunch of other things.

Heck even the main "European" religion these days- Christianity- did not originate
in Europe. It too was imported from "outsiders" of the sub-tropical "Middle East."

Furthermore, Africans did pioneer writing earlier than Mesopotamia or Europe- as credible
scholars show in ancient Kemet in the Nile Valley. On top of that, it was in Africa
that writing first advanced to alphabetic scripts as Egyptian scripts were adapted to
Semitic language by Semitic speaking Egyptian scribes and Semitic speakers in Egypt.
Africa thus shares part of the credit for the development of alphabets- the same
alphabets used today by Europeans. So Europe itself had to import "outside" alphabets
originally derived from Africa.




However any and every time there are any references to the history of Africa (including the previously mentioned states) it seems to always reference North African, Arabic, or European sources.

This is not strictly accurate. The manuscripts of Timbuktu themselves are not
from North Africa, Europe or Arabia. They are from Timbuktu, produced in
Timbuktu, by the local people. So the "history" recorded is local African
history. And if they used Arabic script so what? European history is itself
recorded using imported "outside" script deriving ultimately from Africa.
The right wing idiots you see online are using imported script originally
developed in Africa.

So you have local written history already done by the local African peoples in place.

Now oftentimes local histories are not preserved or accessible over centuries. Europeans get
exposure to it by records kept by outsiders like Arabs etc. This again is nothing
unusual. For example we have very few written records of the Nordic peoples. They "failed"
to develop detailed indigenous writing systems prior to the death of Christ. Some of
the first records we have of said Nordics are from "outside" sources, including
Arab sources. They had to wait for "outsiders" to bring them alphabets like the rest of Europe.
Again, today's alphabets used in Europe derive in part originally from the work of the Africans
of Kemet. And what we know today about numerous European areas including those inhabited by would be
Nordic "role models" we only know because of "outside" sources, before writing was finally adopted locally.


Were the S.S. nations simply not using their script for recording history? Was it used specifically for math, science, and religion? Timbuktu has over 700,000 manuscripts dating from the 1200s yet all references I see about the empire come from Egypt, Morocco, and griots.

It will take much more excavation in the region to recover lost material- a task made
much more difficult by Al Queda group terrorist camps and operations in the area killing locals.
You mention the griots- and they kept extensive histories transmitted orally for generations.
This is part of the historical record, supplemented by Arabic script writings when those
came into the picture. There were also precursors to Timbuktu- such as Jenne-Jeno (maybe
someone has data on that).


Again, keep in mind, that Europe itself had to import "outside" script systems to use
for math, science and religion. In SS Africa, Africans using Arabic script did all that
when they adopted the Arabic script, which in turn, ultimately derives from scripts
developed in Africa as Yale scholars like Darnell 2005 show. And writings in Arabic in
Africa go back long before 1200 AD.

As far as indigenous scripts like Nsibidi, their use was concentrated in very specialized
functions and personnel such as priests, secret societies or special castes like blacksmiths.
This is nothing "unusual". In Egypt and elsewhere it was specialized personnel that first monopolized
writing. The mass of people had to wait a long time. Eventually though writing began to filter down to
lower levels. Again nothing unusual.

Writing came into wider use when there was a need for it- this means expanded trade and
administration. Those areas blessed with easy trade routes and resources such as the
broad transmission belt of the Mediterranean saw quicker, more intensive use of writing
than more isolated areas. Thus in Europe countries near the Medit coast used writing more
than in those countries away from the belts of mass trade and admin. Same in Africa. Those areas
near the transport and communication belts- like the Saharan caravan trade belt, saw intense
use of writing compared to isolated forest or savannah zones. Hence Timbuktu or other similar
kingdoms on the caravan routes would naturally see more use of writing. The importance of these
belts for the development of civilizations debunk the childish claims of simplistic "HBD" types.
See the works of CONSERVATIVE scholars like Sowell 2015, 1993 for data on such debunking these
simplistic claims.

As for Nsibidi it developed according to the pattern above. As isolated areas came into more
contact with one another, and transacted across a wider exchange zone, and was adapted to practical
applications, Nsibidi, which was in place long before Arabs showed up, likewise expanded and adapted,
being used to record things ranging from court cases, to romantic messages.




Why not refer to the 700,000 scripts in Mali?

But the empire of Mali produced its own writing using Arabic script. And just the practical
administration of empires in West Africa, like Mansa Musa's great caravan to the North
would have needed written records. Keeping track of a huge caravan with hundreds of tons of
gold, and hundreds if not thousands of animals and men would need a written accounting
system. The Arabic language would have been used for such. The fact that these writings
did not survive is nothing "unusual." How many written records survive of the cargo
loadouts carried in Viking ships as they raided England and Ireland, or as they carried
settlers to Greenland?


The Swahili coast were very advanced with stone buildings, sewage systems, sail ships and used Arabic writing systems. Where are all of their books? Were they not used for recording history?

This is somewhat contradictory. You ask where is the recorded history, but then acknowledge that
the peoples of the Swahili coast used Arabic writing. Recheck your facts. If they used Arabic
writing they produced some record of some sort. In fact there is an extensive body of
Swahili literature and history, produced in Arabic. It is not "missing" or "lost"..


The Gedi Ruins are lost to history due to lack of written records. Why?

Again contradictory. The Gedi ruins are not "lost" to history. Their presence was
well known in that part of the Swahili coast. The people there had trade links touching
on India, China and even Spain. Their houses had bathrooms with drains and overhead gutters
and overhead basins to flush toilets. Streets were well laid out with drainage gutters.
They had a mosque for worship. Sure surviving books are not found but this is nothing special.
It is almost certain that the people there used writing. Just to operate their Islamic religion
properly they would have been using some writing. Lack of written records in a local area is nothing
unusual. Most of Nordic Europe, until the era after Christ lacked written records as well.

You may need to recheck your facts. The people of Gedi DID leave behind written records.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_Gedi


^As you can see, they are not "lost" to history..

[punosrey]

Yet another "black person"(who may indeed identify as black, antiblackness knows no limits) seeking "information and debate" with a strong agenda of a backwater Sub-Saharan Africa (a category whose territorial boundaries seems more determined by the extent of the person's racism than by the actual current extent of the desert which changes every year) compared to a civilized Arab AE. But every one thinks I'm treating him unfairly.

Whatever guy.

[fromnothing]

Oct 27, 2016 21:07:11 GMT -5 punosrey said:

Yet another "black person"(who may indeed identify as black, antiblackness knows no limits) seeking "information and debate" with a strong agenda of a backwater Sub-Saharan Africa (a category whose territorial boundaries seems more determined by the extent of the person's racism than by the actual current extent of the desert which changes every year) compared to a civilized Arab AE. But every one thinks I'm treating him unfairly.

Whatever guy.

If it bothers you that freaking much then stop looking at my posts. Holy crap. I'm blocking you.

[fromnothing]

Oct 27, 2016 19:07:44 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Well keep in mind that there are written histories in the various kingdoms,
using the Arabic script. This is nothing unusual. All the right wing idiots
you see online talking bout "Africa failed to develop writing" are not only
wrong, but are too dumb to realize that Europe itself "failed" to develop
indigenous writing, and Europe itself had to import "outside" scripts via
the people of the Middle East. Therefore the question arises: So what if some
areas of Africa used Arabic script? Hell Europe itself is no better and had to
import outside script and a bunch of other things.

Heck even the main "European" religion these days- Christianity- did not originate
in Europe. It too was imported from "outsiders" of the sub-tropical "Middle East."

Furthermore, Africans did pioneer writing earlier than Mesopotamia or Europe- as credible
scholars show in ancient Kemet in the Nile Valley. On top of that, it was in Africa
that writing first advanced to alphabetic scripts as Egyptian scripts were adapted to
Semitic language by Semitic speaking Egyptian scribes and Semitic speakers in Egypt.
Africa thus shares part of the credit for the development of alphabets- the same
alphabets used today by Europeans. So Europe itself had to import "outside" alphabets
originally derived from Africa.




However any and every time there are any references to the history of Africa (including the previously mentioned states) it seems to always reference North African, Arabic, or European sources.

This is not strictly accurate. The manuscripts of Timbuktu themselves are not
from North Africa, Europe or Arabia. They are from Timbuktu, produced in
Timbuktu, by the local people. So the "history" recorded is local African
history. And if they used Arabic script so what? European history is itself
recorded using imported "outside" script deriving ultimately from Africa.
The right wing idiots you see online are using imported script originally
developed in Africa.

So you have local written history already done by the local African peoples in place.

Now oftentimes local histories are not preserved or accessible over centuries. Europeans get
exposure to it by records kept by outsiders like Arabs etc. This again is nothing
unusual. For example we have very few written records of the Nordic peoples. They "failed"
to develop detailed indigenous writing systems prior to the death of Christ. Some of
the first records we have of said Nordics are from "outside" sources, including
Arab sources. They had to wait for "outsiders" to bring them alphabets like the rest of Europe.
Again, today's alphabets used in Europe derive in part originally from the work of the Africans
of Kemet. And what we know today about numerous European areas including those inhabited by would be
Nordic "role models" we only know because of "outside" sources, before writing was finally adopted locally.


Were the S.S. nations simply not using their script for recording history? Was it used specifically for math, science, and religion? Timbuktu has over 700,000 manuscripts dating from the 1200s yet all references I see about the empire come from Egypt, Morocco, and griots.

It will take much more excavation in the region to recover lost material- a task made
much more difficult by Al Queda group terrorist camps and operations in the area killing locals.
You mention the griots- and they kept extensive histories transmitted orally for generations.
This is part of the historical record, supplemented by Arabic script writings when those
came into the picture. There were also precursors to Timbuktu- such as Jenne-Jeno (maybe
someone has data on that).


Again, keep in mind, that Europe itself had to import "outside" script systems to use
for math, science and religion. In SS Africa, Africans using Arabic script did all that
when they adopted the Arabic script, which in turn, ultimately derives from scripts
developed in Africa as Yale scholars like Darnell 2005 show. And writings in Arabic in
Africa go back long before 1200 AD.

As far as indigenous scripts like Nsibidi, their use was concentrated in very specialized
functions and personnel such as priests, secret societies or special castes like blacksmiths.
This is nothing "unusual". In Egypt and elsewhere it was specialized personnel that first monopolized
writing. The mass of people had to wait a long time. Eventually though writing began to filter down to
lower levels. Again nothing unusual.

Writing came into wider use when there was a need for it- this means expanded trade and
administration. Those areas blessed with easy trade routes and resources such as the
broad transmission belt of the Mediterranean saw quicker, more intensive use of writing
than more isolated areas. Thus in Europe countries near the Medit coast used writing more
than in those countries away from the belts of mass trade and admin. Same in Africa. Those areas
near the transport and communication belts- like the Saharan caravan trade belt, saw intense
use of writing compared to isolated forest or savannah zones. Hence Timbuktu or other similar
kingdoms on the caravan routes would naturally see more use of writing. The importance of these
belts for the development of civilizations debunk the childish claims of simplistic "HBD" types.
See the works of CONSERVATIVE scholars like Sowell 2015, 1993 for data on such debunking these
simplistic claims.

As for Nsibidi it developed according to the pattern above. As isolated areas came into more
contact with one another, and transacted across a wider exchange zone, and was adapted to practical
applications, Nsibidi, which was in place long before Arabs showed up, likewise expanded and adapted,
being used to record things ranging from court cases, to romantic messages.




Why not refer to the 700,000 scripts in Mali?

But the empire of Mali produced its own writing using Arabic script. And just the practical
administration of empires in West Africa, like Mansa Musa's great caravan to the North
would have needed written records. Keeping track of a huge caravan with hundreds of tons of
gold, and hundreds if not thousands of animals and men would need a written accounting
system. The Arabic language would have been used for such. The fact that these writings
did not survive is nothing "unusual." How many written records survive of the cargo
loadouts carried in Viking ships as they raided England and Ireland, or as they carried
settlers to Greenland?


The Swahili coast were very advanced with stone buildings, sewage systems, sail ships and used Arabic writing systems. Where are all of their books? Were they not used for recording history?

This is somewhat contradictory. You ask where is the recorded history, but then acknowledge that
the peoples of the Swahili coast used Arabic writing. Recheck your facts. If they used Arabic
writing they produced some record of some sort. In fact there is an extensive body of
Swahili literature and history, produced in Arabic. It is not "missing" or "lost"..


The Gedi Ruins are lost to history due to lack of written records. Why?

Again contradictory. The Gedi ruins are not "lost" to history. Their presence was
well known in that part of the Swahili coast. The people there had trade links touching
on India, China and even Spain. Their houses had bathrooms with drains and overhead gutters
and overhead basins to flush toilets. Streets were well laid out with drainage gutters.
They had a mosque for worship. Sure surviving books are not found but this is nothing special.
It is almost certain that the people there used writing. Just to operate their Islamic religion
properly they would have been using some writing. Lack of written records in a local area is nothing
unusual. Most of Nordic Europe, until the era after Christ lacked written records as well.

You may need to recheck your facts. The people of Gedi DID leave behind written records.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_Gedi


^As you can see, they are not "lost" to history..

 The people on this site have a bad habit of "overanswering" my questions and leaving walls of text. I appreciate the well researched response nonetheless but most of what you did was simply confirmed that Africans used writing systems and treated me as though I thought the Arabic records were somehow invalid because they were in Arabic. Fortunately those notions that you had of me were false. Here is a comment I made on a YouTube Documentary about the Mali Empire:


In hindsight however I came to the realization that I never see or hear any of their own documents sited in reference to their own history (hence why I made this post). And based on documentaries and research that I've conducted, the main reason is that there is little research done into them. Any and all history I see or hear about the history of the Mali Empire comes from North Africans, Arabs, and Europeans. Anyway, I was well aware of 100% of everything you said from the Nsidibi to the failure of Europeans to produce their own writing system. Put simply (and asked simply) all I wanted to know was why when you research an ancient African city, it always says "according to a European traveler" or "An Egyptian scholar by the name of xyz wrote this..." Regardless if it comes fromt he Swahili coast or the Sahel, I very seldom see anything that says "According to a book written by a Mombasa scholar." Also yes I already know about the Gedi ruins and I read that Wikipedia page that you cited in it's entirety long before I signed up for this site. Everything that was known about the city (on that page) came from excavation (in regards to the bathrooms, bathing areas etc). That very same Wikipedia page is the one that states that the city lacked written records and as a matter of fact, that city is being featured in the next video of my "Cities Built By Africans" series (which is nearly complete). All that is needed is a few animations. Parts I and II below.

[anansi]

The people on this site have a bad habit of "overanswering" my questions and leaving walls of text. I appreciate the well researched response nonetheless but most of what you did was simply confirmed that Africans used writing systems and treated me as though I thought the Arabic records were somehow invalid because they were in Arabic.

Yes I too can be guilty of that, the reason being there is a lot to share and so one tends not to want to leave anything out, folks here are kinda nerdy like that.

[fromnothing]

Oct 28, 2016 0:51:45 GMT -5 anansi said:

The people on this site have a bad habit of "overanswering" my questions and leaving walls of text. I appreciate the well researched response nonetheless but most of what you did was simply confirmed that Africans used writing systems and treated me as though I thought the Arabic records were somehow invalid because they were in Arabic.

Yes I too can be guilty of that, the reason being there is a lot to share and so one tends not to want to leave anything out, folks here are kinda nerdy like that.

Respectable and understandable. Just when multiple people do it it makes it to where I just realistically lack the time to read it all and usually most of it is stuff I already know. Then I end up missing important details that I may not have known

[Son of Ra]

Oct 27, 2016 21:07:11 GMT -5 punosrey said:

Yet another "black person"(who may indeed identify as black, antiblackness knows no limits) seeking "information and debate" with a strong agenda of a backwater Sub-Saharan Africa (a category whose territorial boundaries seems more determined by the extent of the person's racism than by the actual current extent of the desert which changes every year) compared to a civilized Arab AE. But every one thinks I'm treating him unfairly.

Whatever guy.

Dude knock it off...

On Historum you were not like this.

[fromnothing]

Oct 28, 2016 7:07:41 GMT -5 Son of Ra said:

Oct 27, 2016 21:07:11 GMT -5 punosrey said:

Yet another "black person"(who may indeed identify as black, antiblackness knows no limits) seeking "information and debate" with a strong agenda of a backwater Sub-Saharan Africa (a category whose territorial boundaries seems more determined by the extent of the person's racism than by the actual current extent of the desert which changes every year) compared to a civilized Arab AE. But every one thinks I'm treating him unfairly.

Whatever guy.

Dude knock it off...

On Historum you were not like this.

It's all good. I blocked him. If he's gonna follow me from post to post questioning my ethnicity and being hostile toward me while ignoring the overwhelmingly large amount of pro-African history content that I put out then that's on him. He can stay angry. He can do so until it gives him a heart attack for all I care. I'll just keep doing what I do, learning and knowing as much as I can about our history and creating content for our people.

[anansi]

Ok the sniping ends here, I already locked the other thread pls stick to the subject.

[fromnothing]

Oct 28, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5 anansi said:

Ok the sniping ends here, I already locked the other thread pls stick to the subject.

Are there rules against that stuff? If not that should be something to take into consideration...
Anyway anyone have any actual insight on the OP?

[anansi]

Oct 28, 2016 17:02:02 GMT -5 fromnothing said:

Oct 28, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5 anansi said:

Ok the sniping ends here, I already locked the other thread pls stick to the subject.

Are there rules against that stuff? If not that should be something to take into consideration...
Anyway anyone have any actual insight on the OP?

Forum Rules :

I know you said you are faced with a wall of text but on that wall are answers that you seek.
Part of the reasons as was stated earlier was that writing was sacred and meant for a priestly caste however some did take on a more secular usage, even in the African diaspora such as Cuba, Jamaica .Haiti Dominican Republic, Brazil etc, such writings remained only for the understanding of priest.

[fromnothing]

Oct 28, 2016 19:02:43 GMT -5 anansi said:

Oct 28, 2016 17:02:02 GMT -5 fromnothing said:

Are there rules against that stuff? If not that should be something to take into consideration...
Anyway anyone have any actual insight on the OP?

Forum Rules :

I know you said you are faced with a wall of text but on that wall are answers that you seek.
Part of the reasons as was stated earlier was that writing was sacred and meant for a priestly caste however some did take on a more secular usage, even in the African diaspora such as Cuba, Jamaica .Haiti Dominican Republic, Brazil etc, such writings remained only for the understanding of priest.

I'll be sure to go over that wall of text at some point in time.

[clydewin98]

Oct 27, 2016 11:29:43 GMT -5 fromnothing said:

I made this post in another forum without much success. I'm wondering if anyone in this one has more knowledge on the topic.


Just to clarify, I'm referring to Africa south of the Sahara. I hear numerous accounts about written scripts found in Sub-Saharan Africa. From the Mali Empire, Songhai, and Hausa kingdoms and all of the Swahili states that minted their own coins bearing Arabic scripts. And of course the Ethiopians who still use their own indigenous script to this day. I'm already well aware that there were plenty of literate states in S.S Africa. However any and every time there are any references to the history of Africa (including the previously mentioned states) it seems to always reference North African, Arabic, or European sources. Were the S.S. nations simply not using their script for recording history? Was it used specifically for math, science, and religion? Timbuktu has over 700,000 manuscripts dating from the 1200s yet all references I see about the empire come from Egypt, Morocco, and griots. Why not refer to the 700,000 scripts in Mali? The Swahili coast were very advanced with stone buildings, sewage systems, sail ships and used Arabic writing systems. Where are all of their books? Were they not used for recording history? Yet again... where are the written accounts of these places? The Gedi Ruins are lost to history due to lack of written records. Why?

There are numerous documents written in African scripts that can be used to write history but, there is no written history by Africans.

Writing history involves interpretation of documents. Africans have maintained oral traditional that record information about rulers and important events that can be used to write history, but the teller of these traditional history does not interpret the information they recite.

There are thousand of written documents in Africa, written in African scripts. Most of these documents are obituaries or annals that record events in the life of important personages. As a result, if you learn the languages associated with the scripts you can write history.
The first syllabic writing system of Africans was the Thinite script. This writing was used first by Blacks in Nubia, like the Niger-Congo people who migrated out of this region into the rest of Africa.




The Thinite script provides many of the signs that are included in later scripts used by Africans.

In Nubia, Black Africans were using Thinite symbols before the rise of Egypt to record their ideas and report on important events.




At this time your people may have been living in the caves of the Caucasus mountains.


This writing was later used by Africans to write inscriptions throughout Middle Africa.



The evidence of this writing is found throughout the Sahara. By the time Mande speaking people settled Dar Tichitt they left numerous inscriptions.

The people of Dar Tichitt were Mande speakers. These Mande speaking people also lived in the Fezzan where they were called Garamante/Garamandes. The Garamante settled Crete and are recognized as the Eteo-Cretans or Minoans.


As you can see from the above chart the Linear A signs and Mande/Manding signs are identical. If you look careful you will note that Africans, or Black people had also taken their writing system to Anatolia were your ancestors were living in the Caucasus mountains as hunter-gatherers.

The Minoans, who were Africans introduced Linear A, whose signs are identical to the writing left by Africans throughout the Sahara, like those found at Tichitt and presently represented in the Vai and several other West African scripts.


Europeans adopted Linear A writing to write business documents and we know it as Linear B.

Europeans only got writing from the Egyptians. The Greeks who obtained writing from the Blacks of Africa and Phonesia passed on writing to the Romans. With the fall of Rome Western Europeans got writing from the African Muslims who taught them the arts and sciences.

It is a myth that Africans lacked literacy. Africans usually based their wrtiting systems on the ancient Thinite script used by African people before the founding of ancient Egypt. Thinite was probably the script of the Proto Saharans.

East and West Africans continue to use traditional writing systems especially in their Secret Societies. The vast majority of Writing systems in West Africa are found Among the Mande speaking people. The Bambara speakers for example used the Masaba system of writing.



.


.





.

The Thinite origin of writing in Africa is evident when we compare Vai and Thamudic. The Vai script is a writing system used by the Mande speaking people. The symbols related to Vai was used to write the Lybico-Berber inscriptions and sign post located on the Chariot routes from the Fezzan to the Niger Valley.

The Thamudic writing system was used in Ethiopia and Arabia. This writing was used to record the Semitic language.

The Vai and Thamudic scripts share many signs. These cognate signs have similar sounds.
.


.

.


.

The fact that Thamudic and Vai have similar symbols, and sounds for these letters makes it clear that the writing systems separated by thousands of miles probably originated fron the same ancestral script, that we call Thinite.

[clydewin98]

All African writing systems are based on Thinite writing.





Here we discuss the African origin of the numerous syllabic scripts around the world.