Out Of Darkness !

[nebsen]

this film has been in the making now for a while, it is out, can be purchased at Amazon.

[nebsen]

Some times the truth hurts : Religion vs spirituality, as it applies to racism & it's affect.

[zarahan]

Some of their spiel is rather simplistic. People the world over will build images,
idols etc to suit their religious conceptions and their cultures, or local agendas.
Can these be criticized on various fronts? Sure,, but such criticism would hit EVERYBODY.
White people have done so and so have blacks with their own set of
images and idols. African religions that consider God in human form produce
Africanized image. In Kemet, various gods viewed as using incarnation were pictured
as native Egyptians. The white man is not unique. Every local culture does it.
Does this mean white supremacy did not use this as a means of control etc? Sure,
but too often arguments like Johnson simplistically picture black people as
these childlike beings, "unable to think for themselves" who are supposed to be
"Psychological cripples" because they accept Christianity. Claims of doom and gloom
re Christianity supposedly "hurting" black people psychologically are also dubious-
as if black folk can't make up their own minds as to which belief they find
attractive- only the "approved" religion (proponents have multi-claims as to exactly
which is the "approved" belief for the black man) is good.

Does this mean various religious institutions and leaders can't be criticized severely
on various grounds, including the "cash money" leaders? Sure, they deserve criticism
but that does not mean religious black folk are supposedly these blind, lost cripples,
who need Umar Johnson to come set them right.

Christianity as such has not brought in any "psychological crippling" of black people.
Sweeping claims this are simply bogus. One of the greatest black kingdoms of all time
Kush/Meroe before AND under Christianity is a huge source of black pride and accomplishment.
Likewise further south in today's Ethiopia, under Christian rulers, there is a proud
legacy of victory in battle, and sterling cultural black accomplishments. The Christian
generals at Adowa or the commanders of the Christian Kushite armies were not these
childlike "cripples" Johnson seems to conceive of under his "woe is us" claim,
nor were the empires and nations they founded and ran populated by alleged "cripples."

Likewise the Christian black folk who made the Civil Rights Movement were not any supposed
"cripples." Since when Rosa Park supposed to be this psych "cripple"? Or Martin Luther King?
Or Rev Fred Shuttlesworth in Birmingham who laid his life on the line- beaten, jailed shot, bombed
several times. Shuttlesworth was one of the bravest men America has ever produced- a fighter
for his people, braver than King. Since when is he supposed to be some "crip" allegedly
"under the control" of "the white man"? These men risked their lives and got things done,
while others in the safety of the North stood on the sidelines and produced mostly rhetoric.

The article "Ethiopianism and African Nationalism" (Shepperson 1953) shows that Christianity
was an important mobilization force in aiding some aspects of the anti-colonial struggle.
Likewise in the US, it was the mobilization wrought by "crip" Christian churches that got things
done in the Civil Rights Movement. The faith was a key, not any "crippling" factor. In fact, the African
independent churches often got their start by forging links with independent Black American
denominations, independent of any white control.

As for color, many black Christians have long conceived of Jesus as black. The iconography
of the Kushite/Ethiopian church for example has long filled its walls with a black Jesus, and that's
long before any white Europeans showed up. So where are these supposedly "crippled" black
folk who can't think for themselves? Likewise the "Ethiopianism" of indigenous Christian movements
of Africa have long portrayed Jesus as black and some were influential in colonial freedom
struggles. One of the foremost black thinkers of the 19th century, Edward Blyden, one of the
fathers of pan-Africanism, was a Christian who advocated a blend of Black Christianity and
liberation far from anything under any so-called "white control." The Hon Marcus Mosiah
Garvey likewise drew easily from a long tradition-2000 years of African Christianity- to
portray black Jesus, black saints etc in his ceremonies. Since when Marcus is this alleged
"psychological cripple," supposedly "brainwashed by the white man" as some seem to insinuate?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Conservative Orthodox Leader Pope Shenouda III of the Oriental Orthodox Communion (Egypt, Ethiopia, Armenia, Syria, Eritrea) Pope Shenouda III, in his 2003 book - laid out the Long Creation Age - Old Earth view:

QUOTE:

"Question: How can the saying of the Bible that God created the world in six days coincide with the opinion of the geologists that the age of the earth is thousands even millions of years?.

Answer: The days of creation are not Solar days as our days now... The day of creation is a period of time, not known how long, which could have been a second or thousands or millions of years. This period was determined by the saying "so the evening and the morning were..."

The evidences for this are many, among which are:
1. The Solar day is the period of time between the sunrise and its rising again or between the sunset and its setting again. Since the Sun was only created on the fourth day [Gn 1:16-19]... then the first four days were not solar days.

2. As for the seventh day, the Bible did not state that it has ended... The Bible did not say [so the evening and the morning were the seventh day, and thousands of years passed from Adam till now while this seventh day is still going on. Accordingly, the days of creation are not Solar days but unknown periods of time.

3. As a whole, the Bible said about the creation and its six days: "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in (the day) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." [Gn 2:4]. So the Bible summed up in the word (day) all the six days of creation...

Let the geologists say then whatever they want about the age of the earth; for the Bible did not mention any age for the earth that may contradict the view of the geologists. The way the Lord looks to the measure of time is explained by the apostle as follows: "With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day" [2 Pet 3:8]"

--FROM: Pope Shenouda, 2003. So Many Years with the Problems of People Part 1: Biblical Questions. pg 11-12
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Orthodox Leader Pope Shenouda III of the Oriental Orthodox Communion discussed the long creational age- Old Earth view in an earlier 1999 Youtube video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUuHiHHpCm0
See minute 6:36 where Shenouda says the "days" of creation may be million of years or ages of time - and not a day of 24 hours.

[zarahan]

As for Umar J, he has said some good things, and can no doubt, and rightly so,
condemn religious frauds and excesses- more power to him. But his own credibility
as far as honesty and transparency has been seriously questioned by some, not only
as regards the cash money trail, but the claims to be the only Black Psychologist
doing this and that.

PS: I support some of Johnson's ideas by the way- self determination, business,
focused education for boys etc. Absolutely, but there has to be accountability..
just as assorted religious leaders must be held accountable..

afrikan-resistance.blogspot.com/2015/12/evidence-and-facts-vs-fraud-and.html



and




A former supporter of Johnson, Dr Boyce Watkins now has second thoughts about
Johnson, especially re all the money collected from the Black community, and
his ego centrism.. Ironically, Watkins notes that Johnson seem to be acting
like a prideful religious bigwig himself, as if he is a mega-church leader, seeking
the first, most prominent place...

min 16:11- says Boyce:

"You collected half a million dollars from the black community, you owe people some mf^% answers.
People have a right to ask you what you doing with my money.. Stop acting like you such a king, and
you so high and mighty that you don;t know anybody an explanation but your momma.."


and another concerned sister asking the Prince of Pan Africanism for some answers.
Where has the money gone?

[nebsen]

May 1, 2017 14:55:10 GMT -5 zarahan said:

Some of their spiel is rather simplistic. People the world over will build images,
idols etc to suit their religious conceptions and their cultures, or local agendas.
Can these be criticized on various fronts? Sure,, but such criticism would hit EVERYBODY.
White people have done so and so have blacks with their own set of
images and idols. African religions that consider God in human form produce
Africanized image. In Kemet, various gods viewed as using incarnation were pictured
as native Egyptians. The white man is not unique. Every local culture does it.
Does this mean white supremacy did not use this as a means of control etc? Sure,
but too often arguments like Johnson simplistically picture black people as
these childlike beings, "unable to think for themselves" who are supposed to be
"Psychological cripples" because they accept Christianity. Claims of doom and gloom
re Christianity supposedly "hurting" black people psychologically are also dubious-
as if black folk can't make up their own minds as to which belief they find
attractive- only the "approved" religion (proponents have multi-claims as to exactly
which is the "approved" belief for the black man) is good.

Does this mean various religious institutions and leaders can't be criticized severely
on various grounds, including the "cash money" leaders? Sure, they deserve criticism
but that does not mean religious black folk are supposedly these blind, lost cripples,
who need Umar Johnson to come set them right.

Christianity as such has not brought in any "psychological crippling" of black people.
Sweeping claims this are simply bogus. One of the greatest black kingdoms of all time
Kush/Meroe before AND under Christianity is a huge source of black pride and accomplishment.
Likewise further south in today's Ethiopia, under Christian rulers, there is a proud
legacy of victory in battle, and sterling cultural black accomplishments. The Christian
generals at Adowa or the commanders of the Christian Kushite armies were not these
childlike "cripples" Johnson seems to conceive of under his "woe is us" claim,
nor were the empires and nations they founded and ran populated by alleged "cripples."

Likewise the Christian black folk who made the Civil Rights Movement were not any supposed
"cripples." Since when Rosa Park supposed to be this psych "cripple"? Or Martin Luther King?
Or Rev Fred Shuttlesworth in Birmingham who laid his life on the line- beaten, jailed shot, bombed
several times. Shuttlesworth was one of the bravest men America has ever produced- a fighter
for his people, braver than King. Since when is he supposed to be some "crip" allegedly
"under the control" of "the white man"? These men risked their lives and got things done,
while others in the safety of the North stood on the sidelines and produced mostly rhetoric.

The article "Ethiopianism and African Nationalism" (Shepperson 1953) shows that Christianity
was an important mobilization force in aiding some aspects of the anti-colonial struggle.
Likewise in the US, it was the mobilization wrought by "crip" Christian churches that got things
done in the Civil Rights Movement. The faith was a key, not any "crippling" factor. In fact, the African
independent churches often got their start by forging links with independent Black American
denominations, independent of any white control.

As for color, many black Christians have long conceived of Jesus as black. The iconography
of the Kushite/Ethiopian church for example has long filled its walls with a black Jesus, and that's
long before any white Europeans showed up. So where are these supposedly "crippled" black
folk who can't think for themselves? Likewise the "Ethiopianism" of indigenous Christian movements
of Africa have long portrayed Jesus as black and some were influential in colonial freedom
struggles. One of the foremost black thinkers of the 19th century, Edward Blyden, one of the
fathers of pan-Africanism, was a Christian who advocated a blend of Black Christianity and
liberation far from anything under any so-called "white control." The Hon Marcus Mosiah
Garvey likewise drew easily from a long tradition-2000 years of African Christianity- to
portray black Jesus, black saints etc in his ceremonies. Since when Marcus is this alleged
"psychological cripple," supposedly "brainwashed by the white man" as some seem to insinuate?

I think the video is about the effects Christianity has had over the past couple of centuries . You sound very touchy about the subject !

Yes, the video has tried to reach the average black person to get them to think about how Christianity has been used. I myself I'm not into the Jesus thing as my lord & savior & feel it has crippled to many in developing their innate understanding of their inner divinity , instead of focusing on a suffering dying man on a cross regardless of color ;Also the denying of the female principle as a part of divinity has also crippled many, which I see in the future will be restored. Patriarchy is a imbalance which life span is coming to an end ; yes, ancient Sudan & Ethiopia had some of the early monasteries devoted to Christianity & Africa played a pivotal role in it's development & spread, but that was in an African context, not how it later became, in a Westren European context with slavery !! there is Christianity for the masses & than there is the mystical branch of Christianity which i tend to study & adhere to , which includes the female aspect of divinity such as in Gnosticism , but to many are to busy getting hung up on the symbol of a dying man who died for their sin( which is misunderstood) instead of peering behind the symbol to the deeper inner teachings.

Concerning Dr. Umar, i just became aware of this brother. Their are many things that I think he is brilliant at & than there are some aspects to him I'm not in agreement with. But i can separate, & still understand what he is trying to convey . This is the end to my addressing the subject matter.

[zarahan]

I have had several run-ins with various people including white & black feminists who argue
similarly but I have to disagree. I don't see any "crippling" effect at all. If anything
it has just been the opposite. The kings of Kush and Ethiopia were not crippled
by Christianity. Nor was Marcus Garvey. Nor the Ethiopianist West/East/South
African Christian churches. Nor Rosa Parks, ML KIng, Rev Shuttlesworth etc.
If anything Christianity was a key source of strength and mobilization.
Harriet Tubman packed a pistol, kicked ass and led scores of people to
freedom via the Underground Railroad, and she was a devout Christian. While
there are plenty of fake Christians around, or some who have made some bad mistakes,
like other folk, or some who just want to be white, I just don't see these legions
of psychologically "crippled" people alleged by Umar Johnson and others. Those who keep
telling black folk they are some sort of basket cases, on insinuating the same on this score
are out of touch with the reality of black life.

And yes the white supremacist system hijacked Christianity for its purposes.
I can go with what you say there. You also mention denying a female divinity,
and so on and I can respect that. But it is an open question whether any
such deity has credibility in Christianity. The churches of Ethiopia for example
reject the fragmentation and multiple systems of Gnosticism, with its various
flavors of Polytheism, Theism, Deism and Pantheism, and affirm for instance that there
is but one God. There is variation, but certain BOTTOM LINES form the foundation, and
the multiple mix and match aspects of Gnosticism are rejected on key matters.

I have tangled with white feminists re "fem power" divinity, and point out that "Female"
attributes or female metaphors, etc used in discussing God in various Bible texts, represent
not God, but ATTRIBUTES of God. As a practical example we can say Michael Jordan is a
gazelle, but this is a metaphorical description or personification of Him or his leaping ability.
It does not mean that Michael Jordan IS AN ACTUAL Gazelle with horns and hoofs. Thus the use of
female metaphors or personification, while notable, does not take precedence over the main male
framework, which remains central. Various goddesses do not share equal time with the Supreme Creator,
and no credible Biblical interpretation or received teaching by the ordinary folk makes or accepts that
argument, no matter what theories white feminists come up with.

The male figure is deliberately used to denote strength, protection and creative power.
The churches themselves hold that God is a Spirit, but to translate and discuss with the
common man, certain symbols, metaphors and figures of speech are used that quickly covey
the idea of strength, and power. Some African religions do the same thing. The Khoisan
creator as a "male" figure for example, right away gets across the idea of power and
strength in creation. The main point is that the female figure/symbol as secondary, or less
important is not something brought in by Christianity- it has been around from early times.

Gnosticism has many systems, most not from Africa but from the relatively recent
Middle East, including connections to Babylonian, Indian, Phoenician and Greek religions.
It is a melange type mix so to speak, that some would criticize as not being authentically
black. Same observation can apply to the various Black Muslims who claim that theirs is the
"true" Black Man's religion. If this is so why do they go pay homage to a Caucasian slave
trader's grave, or speak the language of slave traders that ravaged Africa of millions
of its sons and daughters, or use text traditions that specifically disrespect black people?
Why is this supposedly mo authentically black?


Re Umar J, I agree with some of what the says- but he has to be held accountable.
He criticizes others for egotism and corruption, but the same criticisms have been
raised about himself. Various televangelists pocketing the cash of followers are
rightly to be criticized, but why has Johnson failed to give satisfactory answers
about his own cash handling for example? And his own egotism- such as his "Prince
of Pan Africanism" approach, critics see it as just as bad as any boastful megachurch
operative.

[nebsen]

[nebsen]

[nebsen]

[nebsen]

[nebsen]

[nebsen]

[zarahan]

Many of the above repeat the same argument about how Christianity supposed to be "crippling"
black people. While there are fakes and fools in every religion that charge is is simplistic
and nonsensical, and various detractors are themselves shaky on the honesty front, like U Johnson.
How for example did it "cripple" one of the bravest black American freedom
fighters, Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth of Birmingham, whose church, combined with other
allied churches, formed the base of the famous Birmingham movement? While others
were safely up north talking bout "consciousness," Rev Shuttlesworth was laying his
life on the line, getting the job done for black freedom.




^^Alleged "psychological cripple" Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth..

[zarahan]

^"Crippled" Christian Emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selassie

[zarahan]

^^confused, "psychologically crippled" Christian fighters- Battle of Adowa.. Ethiopia..





^^confused, "psychologically crippled" Christian fighters- Battle of Birmingham.. United States..