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Post by nebsen on May 31, 2018 0:39:14 GMT -5
Sarah Forster explains the Arab slave trade through the lens of colorism in a way I never heard before . Sarah Forster brings up very salient questions about one slave trade as opposed to another, i myself have not heard this concept the way she explains it have you ?
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Post by zarahan on Jun 9, 2018 12:31:02 GMT -5
What are the main differences between her approach and the traditional one you know?
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Post by nebsen on Jun 9, 2018 19:16:47 GMT -5
What are the main differences between her approach and the traditional one you know? Don't understand your question ? Her approach, & traditional ?? Please explain more in detail.
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Post by zarahan on Jun 11, 2018 10:39:36 GMT -5
Well, I meant her colorism approach versus traditional?
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Post by nebsen on Jun 11, 2018 19:22:05 GMT -5
Well, I meant her colorism approach versus traditional? Well .I'm still not understanding what you mean. did you watch the video ? If not, it would help if you did, for you might understand what she is referring too. I know you to be very able to parse things in their context, for what she is talking about is not that dense !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 7:55:17 GMT -5
This lady is pushing Christian science fiction. I have no sympathy for the eastern slave trade, but any objective observer is forced to ask who the Malik Ambar of the Christian slave trade is?
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Post by zarahan on Jun 20, 2018 1:31:41 GMT -5
Hmm AMbar was an slave who was sold and resold, but finally lucked out into a situation with a favorable owner and he eventually became a high royal official in India. But I wonder if its fair to say that the Arab slave trade allowed him to demonstrate his natural talent though. The slave trade actually almost iced his future. He is an exceptional case, but most black slaves had no such luck. Their lives were dismal. It is no accident that one of the biggest black slave rebellions of all time took place against Arab masters- the Zanj Rebellion- when thousands of black slaves condemned to brutal labor to drain the malarial salt marshes of southern Iraq, rose for freedom against their oppressors. For 14 years they kicked ass until crushed by massive Arab armies. ANd yet so destructive was their resistance that they are credited by some with deterring the mass plantation employment of black slaves in much of the Arab world. According to writer Ronald Segal, author of "Islam's Black Slaves" the rebellion was enormous. Says Segal: "It destroyed much of the commercial shipping in the region and came close to capturing the city of Baghdad, then the greatest city of Islam. The impact across Islam was enormous. There developed a reluctance to allow very large concentrations of slaves for plantation agriculture. That is a parenthetical reason for the overwhelmingly domestic nature of the Islamic trade." No doubt both Arab areas and Western areas produced slaves who rose to prominence. www.history.com/news/5-former-slaves-turned-statesmenMike111's old "black royalty of Europe" threads also have a lot of prominent blacks who rose to high positions.. www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003411;p=1Course India has its own version of "if you black get back" with its caste system that conveniently, puts the darkest skinned people at the bottom. The sad fate of the Black DRavidians is one indicator.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 9:23:39 GMT -5
"But I wonder if its fair to say that the Arab slave trade allowed him to demonstrate his natural talent though." Why not? He was educated by his Arab masters to become a fine engineer, architect, city planner, soldier and politician. He wasn't the only one. His master in India, was an African who occupied a high position at court, as part of the Habshi nobles of India. "No doubt both Arab areas and Western areas produced slaves who rose to prominence. www.history.com/news/5-former-slaves-turned-statesmen". You failed to notice that the slaves turned statesmen were the children of their white masters. Ambar and the Habshi/Siddi elites of India were unmixed Africans. Janjira State was run by them and their descendants from 1489–1948! An admiral from Janjira was instrumental in curbing the English East India Company in the war known as Child's War. "Mike111's old "black royalty of Europe" threads also have a lot of prominent blacks who rose to high positions.. www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003411;p=1" Again, you are referring to mixed-race individuals and I'm referring to unmixed Africans. Abu al-Misk Kafur (905–967), an Ethiopian reigned over Egypt. Another powerful African who ruled Egypt in the Post-Pharaonic era was the mother of Abū Tamīm Ma‘ad al-Mustanṣir bi-llāh, the eighth caliph of the Fatimid Caliphate, Rasad, a slave of Sudanese, Abyssinian or Nubian origin. Find me the equals of these Africans in the West and I'll concede your point.
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Post by zarahan on Jun 20, 2018 14:48:07 GMT -5
Why not? He was educated by his Arab masters to become a fine engineer, architect, city planner, soldier and politician. He wasn't the only one. His master in India, was an African who occupied a high position at court, as part of the Habshi nobles of India. True, but it was not the Arab slave trade fundamentally responsible for his talents, and in any case, his ascension to be a ruler with armies beneath him, and dynastic marriages being made for his daughters and so on shows he was a rare exception. The overwhelming pattern for black slaves in thee Arab world, was a life of brutality and drudgery. You failed to notice that the slaves turned statesmen were the children of their white masters. But you have failed to notice that several of the prominent blacks in the West were also unmixed. ANd Mike111's Black Royals thread shows several unmixed black nobles. And Ambar himself made sure his daughters were hooked up in mixed marriages, so they could move up in, or maintain high social status. He did not arrange for them to marry other African slaves or ex-slaves like himself, rendering the "mixed" point, besides the point. Again, you are referring to mixed-race individuals and I'm referring to unmixed Africans. But again, for the vast majority of black slaves, there was little to celebrate, and little opportunity to become a high-flying Malik Ambars. And again, Mike's own royalty threads show several unmixed black royals, and even some unmixed blacks becoming religious figures- saints to the whites of Europe. Other info linked show successful unmixed blacks like Robert Smalls, and Josiah Walls. The famous architect Benjamin Banneker was born to a black slave and a free African woman. No one would mistake him for "mixed".. You mention people like the Ethiopian ruling over Egypt, but some Ethiopians are "mixed" with varying levels of Eurasian, Asiatic or Middle Eastern strands, though this mix is secondary to the predominant African stock, just as the African stock is predominant in many successful blacks in the West. And a number of prominent blacks are themselves mixed. Abushiri bin Salimu for example who rode to prominence in resisting German colonization in East Africa, had an Arab father and an African mother. Likewise Pre-Islamic poet Antara Ibn Shaddad (525–615 B.C.), who born to an Arab father and an Ethiopian slave mother. His work is self-deprecating and defensive about his dark color. People like Malik Ambar were lucky to get out from under Arab hegemony. A majority of African male slaves under Arab countries, until recent decades, were castrated, as numerous credible histories show. Janjira State was run by them and their descendants from 1489–1948! An admiral from Janjira was instrumental in curbing the English East India Company in the war known as Child's War. ^^Which contradicts your race mix case. Their descendants were mixed, and were not pure blooded Africans. And the unjust caste system of India STILL put the darkest skinned people overwhelmingly at the bottom, with the lighter skins on top, despite diversity. And as shown below, there was plenty of "mixing" for those few blacks that rose to prominence under the Arab yoke. "And if we are going to compare successes, show me unmixed black equivalents under present day Arab countries of Air Force General Chappies James, astronaut , Noble Prize Winner Sir Arthur Lewis (not the usual PEace Prize), and a host of others."
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Post by zarahan on Jun 20, 2018 16:27:24 GMT -5
Most black males who gained high office and status in Arab countries, until relatively recently were castrated eunuchs who could not reproduce, or the mixed product of concubines exploited by the Arabs. A real "downer" for black men.. Thus the "COlorism" video poster has a point about a forgotten slave trade- that is given relatively little attention, a brutal trade destructive of blacks even to the extent of discouraging them from reproducing. Various histories back her up.. QUOTE: "A significant proportion of male black slaves were castrated and used in Muslim lands as eunuchs, to guard the harems and serve as attendants at holy sites such as the Ka’ba at Mecca and the Prophet’s mosque at Madina. They formed a special class of highly priced slaves kept by Muslim rulers and bourgeois from the heart of the Muslim world to Muslim Africa. Ethiopia was for a very long time the main source of eunuchs for the Muslim world even though from the mid-eighteenth century Bagirmi became the main exporter.
The operation, done on boys aged between eight and ten, though prohibited under Islam, was carried out with an exceedingly high death rate. Gustav Nachtigal was told that on the whole about 30 per cent survived the operation in Bagirmi, while other estimates put the mortality rate at up to 80 per cent. 193 This barbaric act was made particularly cruel for black victims in that, in contrast to their white counterparts whose operation did not deny them the ability to perform coitus, the castration of blacks involved what was popularly referred to as ‘level with the abdomen’, i.e. a complete amputation of the genitalia.194
Some eunuchs came to hold positions of influence and it was indeed only in their capacity as eunuchs that black slaves, unlike their white counterparts, were sometimes able to play political and judicial roles of some importance in Muslim lands. Hence, in the words of J.O. Hunwick:
It is a curious irony that while the female slave's best chance of a life of ease and respect was through the exploitation of her female sexuality as a concubine and ultimately as a mother, the male slave’s surest road to prosperity and power lay in having his own sexuality sacrificed through a transformation whose physical ana emotional pain can better be imagined than described."
".. in contrast to the situation of the Mamluks, ‘the gelder’s knife and the corps of eunuchs were virtually the only route by which a black could attain high office’ of any kind within the Muslim world outside black Africa.204 Apart from isolated and rare examples of black eunuchs like Abu al-Misk Kafur, who captured the reins of power during an interregnum in tenth-century Egypt and others like Dhu al-Nun al-MisrT (d. 861), known as ‘the head of Sufis’, most if not all other persons of black descent who attained some kind of fame in the Muslim world (mainly in poetry and music) were almost always the offspring of concubines." --John Alembillah Azumah 2014. The Legacy of Arab-Islam In Africa: A Quest for Inter-religious Dialogue. QUOTE: "Castration. A fair proportion of male slaves were imported as eunuchs and thus precluded from having offspring. Among these were many who otherwise, by the wealth and power which they acquired, might have founded families...
In general, only the lower orders of slaves-menial, domestic, and manual workers-remained in the condition of servitude and transmitted that condition to their descendants. There were not many such descendants-casual mating was not permitted and marriage was not encouraged.
There was a high death toll among all classes of slaves, including great military commanders as well as humble menials. Slaves came mainly from remote places, and, lacking immunities, died in large numbers from endemic as well as epidemic diseases. As late as the nineteenth century, Western travelers in North Africa and Egypt noted the high death rate among imported black slaves." --BErnard Lewis, 1990. Race and Slavery in the Middle East, 28-29 "A. Ubicini contrasts the brilliant careers open to white slaves, both male and female. with the domestic drudgery that is the universal fate of the blacks: "Only one path is open to them [black males] to reach high honor, that of the meheyn [palace staff]; but one knows on what condition" (La Turquie actuelle [Paris, 1855]. p. 294) [/i] [/b] --Bernard Lewis 1990. Race and Slavery in the Middle East. p 321
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 21:21:22 GMT -5
"And if we are going to compare successes, show me unmixed black equivalents under present day Arab countries of Air Force General Chappies James, astronaut , Noble Prize Winner Sir Arthur Lewis (not the usual PEace Prize), and a host of others." Please tell me you're joking? Since when were Arthur Lewis and General James slaves? Were we not discussing the development of unmixed black talents under conditions of slavery? Why are you dragging people who don't fit the category into this conversation? I pointed out to you an entire class of blacks who constituted part of the nobility of India during the 16th-17th centuries, you countered with stories of stray Africans who were tolerated by powerful Europeans. Ambar and other Habshis were de facto, even, de jure, rulers of Deccan Sultanates. Their situation was not commensurate to that of Blacks tolerated by Europeans. You seem to want to argue that Ambar was a rare exception, not true. Ikhlas Khan, his contemporary, was prime minister of a neighboring Sultanate. blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/2013/04/ikhlas-khan-the-african-prime-minister-of-bijapur.htmlSince when was Benjamin Banneker an architect? He was an almanac author, surveyor and farmer. No way can he be compared to Ambar in social status. "^^Which contradicts your mixed buildup. Their descendants were mixed, and were not pure blooded Africans. And the unjust caste system of India STILL put the darkest skinned people overwhelmingly at the bottom, with the lighter skins on top, despite diversity." I never claimed that their descendants were not mixed. My comments were about the unmixed Africans who established the mixed dynasties. "True, but it was not the Arab slave trade fundamentally responsible for his talents, and in any case, his ascension to be a ruler with armies beneath him, and dynastic marriages being made for his daughters and so on shows he was a rare exception. The overwhelming pattern for black slaves in thee Arab world, was a life of brutality and drudgery." The life of most slaves, regardless of color "was a life of brutality and drudgery." Ambar Married an African woman, and his youngest daughter, Azija Bano, married a nobleman named Siddi Abdullah. Siddi is used to designate people of African ancestry. exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/index2.phpI never claimed that the Arab slave trade was fundamentally responsible for his talents, he owes them to his ancestors and his personal ambition. Thomas Fuller, a/k/a The Virginia Calculator didn't have Ambar's opportunities since his owners were illiterate.
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Post by zarahan on Jun 20, 2018 21:49:13 GMT -5
OK but you implied that the blacks in the West could not be credited because they were "mixed." This is not so- there are plenty of unmixed ones that rose to prominence, and in any event Mike111 showed there were a number of unmixed black royals or prominent folk in Europe.
Any mixed race notions in this area fail repeatedly because multiple credible histories show that few blacks in that past were allowed to rise to any prominence unless they were castrated eunuchs, or THEMSELVES were the "mixed" offspring of Arabs and their black concubines, as cited above. And Malik Anbar was a rare exception, indeed rare for a person of any race to rise to such a position, let along black slaves, whose typical end was castration and/or permanent drudgery.
I never claimed that the Arab slave trade was fundamentally responsible for his talents, he owes them to his ancestors and his personal ambition.
OK I am glad you qualify this because you started out by saying- Quote:
"The Arab slave trade allowed this black genius to fully demonstrate his natural talents."
I was wondering about that-saying-quote: "But I wonder if its fair to say that the Arab slave trade allowed him to demonstrate his natural talent though."
You replied: "Why not? He was educated by his Arab masters .. " .. etc..
Fair enough, I am glad for the clarification.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 22, 2018 15:38:44 GMT -5
Some names from a book I owned in the 90s
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Post by zarahan on Jun 22, 2018 17:11:55 GMT -5
OK fair enough, but a quick search brings up paler looking types For example a search on Masry brings this up: ??Masry?? But its hard to tell who Masry is with so many diffeent photos popping up .. you may be right.. www.bing.com/images/search?q=Abdullah+Masry+saudi+Deputy+minister+of+culture&FORM=HDRSC2A search on Sheikh Hussein El-Kadi likewise brings up the similar paler types not the dark, as you say- phenotypically inner African in physical feature. But I don't dispute your point. You list very recent individuals who are not included in the pattern noted above- qualified as noted- quote: "few blacks in that past" and " until relatively recently" So sure, modern era patterns, including 19th century will show more diversity. No question. You list ambassadors, and government officials, of which there are many in the US and Caribbean. How many in the Pacific/Eastern Indian Ocean area? Hmm, good question. If you include people from New Guinea, or FIji, or Marshall Islands like below, then I suppose you will find several in that category that phenotypically "look African" though they are not from inner Africa. Papua New guinea
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Post by snakepit on Jun 22, 2018 23:56:07 GMT -5
Why not? He was educated by his Arab masters to become a fine engineer, architect, city planner, soldier and politician. He wasn't the only one. His master in India, was an African who occupied a high position at court, as part of the Habshi nobles of India. True, but it was not the Arab slave trade fundamentally responsible for his talents, and in any case, his ascension to be a ruler with armies beneath him, and dynastic marriages being made for his daughters and so on shows he was a rare exception. The overwhelming pattern for black slaves in thee Arab world, was a life of brutality and drudgery. You failed to notice that the slaves turned statesmen were the children of their white masters. But you have failed to notice that several of the prominent blacks in the West were also unmixed. ANd Mike111's Black Royals thread shows several unmixed black nobles. And Ambar himself made sure his daughters were hooked up in mixed marriages, so they could move up in, or maintain high social status. He did not arrange for them to marry other African slaves or ex-slaves like himself, rendering the "mixed" point, besides the point. Again, you are referring to mixed-race individuals and I'm referring to unmixed Africans. But again, for the vast majority of black slaves, there was little to celebrate, and little opportunity to become a high-flying Malik Ambars. And again, Mike's own royalty threads show several unmixed black royals, and even some unmixed blacks becoming religious figures- saints to the whites of Europe. Other info linked show successful unmixed blacks like Robert Smalls, and Josiah Walls. The famous architect Benjamin Banneker was born to a black slave and a free African woman. No one would mistake him for "mixed".. You mention people like the Ethiopian ruling over Egypt, but some Ethiopians are "mixed" with varying levels of Eurasian, Asiatic or Middle Eastern strands, though this mix is secondary to the predominant African stock, just as the African stock is predominant in many successful blacks in the West. And a number of prominent blacks are themselves mixed. Abushiri bin Salimu for example who rode to prominence in resisting German colonization in East Africa, had an Arab father and an African mother. Likewise Pre-Islamic poet Antara Ibn Shaddad (525–615 B.C.), who born to an Arab father and an Ethiopian slave mother. His work is self-deprecating and defensive about his dark color. Arabs & Africans (pure Arabs that is) were virtually indistinguishable from one another. For example, Bilal (the first muezzin) and Ali Ibn Abi Talib were described to possess the same complexion. So if Bilal was an African from Ethiopia, then Ali Ibn Abi Talib must have looked just like him. it's also worth mentioning that Ali was the first cousin & son in law of the Prophet Muhammad. So if Ali's parents were dark-skinned, it would make sense that Muhammads parents were the same, and then we can make the same assumption of the Hashim clan of the Quraysh tribe as well.
People like Malik Ambar were lucky to get out from under Arab hegemony. A majority of African male slaves under Arab countries, until recent decades, were castrated, as numerous credible histories show. Janjira State was run by them and their descendants from 1489–1948! An admiral from Janjira was instrumental in curbing the English East India Company in the war known as Child's War. ^^Which contradicts your race mix case. Their descendants were mixed, and were not pure blooded Africans. And the unjust caste system of India STILL put the darkest skinned people overwhelmingly at the bottom, with the lighter skins on top, despite diversity. And as shown below, there was plenty of "mixing" for those few blacks that rose to prominence under the Arab yoke. "And if we are going to compare successes, show me unmixed black equivalents under present day Arab countries of Air Force General Chappies James, astronaut , Noble Prize Winner Sir Arthur Lewis (not the usual PEace Prize), and a host of others."
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