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Post by Shadow on Oct 11, 2019 14:48:14 GMT -5
I was strolling on the website Quora, viewing the typical and maddening answers of Eurocentrick when I staggered upon this quote by this member who calls him/herself Mata Matosa. He/She answered a question regarding the various hairstyles of the Ancient Egyptians and their African connection. As usual for most Eurocentrick he/she gave a crappy response to a question, literally spamming the most ridiculous photographs and bullshit! She apparently got into an altercation with somebody in her comment section. They seemed to be going at it heavily because he/she had the most wild assertions that I never heard before. For instance when the commentator noted that some Nubians had the same complexion like the Egyptians, he/she claimed that the reason was because they mixed with the Egyptians. He/She then went on to claim that Habesha, Somalis, and any African with distinctive characteristics weren't real Africans, but a fixed Hybrid race, mixed with Eurasian migrants and the Niolots, you know the usual nonsense. I admit to laugh at this because she then claimed that people in the Middle East were racially pure and not themselves mixed. But the thing that caught my attention in this small debate was a quote that she posted. It is a description made by the the Greek Sophist, Lucius Flavius on the Ethiopian merchants and traders bringing their products to Egypt. “It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,Apparently this quote was used by this person to denote that the people the Southern Ethiopians were dealing with were "racially" mixed and therefore Caucasian Hybrids, despite him only mentioning the skin tone of the Egyptians and Ethiopians being different. I am very much intrigued by the wording the Author use to describe the the local population. I already know that this quote could most likely be a distortion made by European scholars, but I want to be sure. I couldn't find any "beneficial" information about it. I need someone to elaborate on this particular quote to know what he actually might have said or at least be sure to know what he meant. I found the full description here if you anybody might want to go through and review what he's talking about. www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/laot/laot30.htmIf someone want to review this Eurocentrick response here's the link. www.quora.com/Why-do-the-Ancient-Egyptians-have-Black-African-hairstyles-hair-types-if-they-werent-Black
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Post by kel on Oct 11, 2019 20:53:54 GMT -5
"I already know that this quote could most likely be a distortion made by European scholars"
u answered ur own question.
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Post by Shadow on Oct 12, 2019 6:00:26 GMT -5
Not the question I was asking.
“I need someone to elaborate on this particular quote to know what he actually might have said or at least be sure to know what he meant.”
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Oct 13, 2019 18:26:16 GMT -5
Have done no research but off the cuff
Is there a Greek-English definitive edition of Flavius Philostratus? Something like the old Leob translations? That'd settle redaction vs original text questions.
Which of our scholars might comment on this text? Hansberry and Snowden come to mind. Diop too!
Also think of the writer's era. Had the delta gone mostly nationalized foreigners by then? What about Middle Egypt (northern Upper Egypt)? Probably the "new breed" amalgam? Southern Upper Egypt may've been mostly still autochthone. Especially considering the last two bullets one could interpret 3 general complexions. Each on its own and viewed solo considered black by Greeks then. Even today Greeks (and Turks) class Arabian Arabs black.
Sudani - darkest brown blacks Aswani - medium tones Egypti - lighter ranges (including hi yalla & redbone
? ? ?
I don't see the author talking gene flow just skin colours. But it's only natural a population between two others would swap genes with both. Then, given same altitude, don't complexions generally get darker closer to the equator? (I know, I know Wolof are nowhere near the equator.)
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Post by Shadow on Oct 14, 2019 17:10:40 GMT -5
Have done research but off the cuff Is there a Greek-English definitive edition of Flavius Philostratus? Something like the old Leob translations? That'd settle addition vs original text questions. Which of our scholars might comment on this text? Hansberry and Snowden come to mind. Diop too! Also think of the writer's era. Had the delta gone mostly nationalized foreigners by then? What about Middle Egypt (northern Upper Egypt)? Probably the "new breed" amalgam? Southern Upper Egypt may've been mostly still autochthone. Especially considering the last two bullets one could interpret 3 general complexions. Each on its own and viewed solo considered black by Greeks then. Even today Greeks (and Turks) class Arabian Arabs black. Sudani - intense blacks Aswani - medium tones Egypti - lighter range (including hi yalla & redbone ? ? ? I don't see the author talking gene flow but skin colours. But it's only natural a population between two others would swap genes with both. Then, given same altitude, don't complexions generally get darker closer to the equator? (I know, I know Wolof are nowhere near the equator.) I am of the assumption that he is describing the color cline of Egypt and Nubia. In my opinion I think that the complexion of Lower Egyptians and those in the delta wouldn’t necessarily be too dark, but wouldn’t be too light either. I picture the average working class Lower Egyptian‘s complexion to having been a golden brown or honey brown hue to reddish brown hue during this time, similar to the North Sudanese. Not much different from Dynastic Egypt, but with a significant foreign presence. The Egyptian elites or upper classes, I assume would of been rather fair skinned or similar to what we see in North African complexions to day. The locals from Upper Egypt would of mostly been a dark complexion or dark brownish hue, and the Nubians could have been jet black, like the Nuur and Nuba. The reason I assume this to be the case is because I doubt that Ancient Egyptians before foreign rule was anything what we might come across as “racially” mixed. I get that this is the idea that modern Egyptologist think Ancient Egyptians have always been, especially when they compare older skulls from Lower Egypt to Upper Egypt, the crania of Upper Egypt tends to be more Negro like, while the cranial of Lower Egyptians tends to be more of a hybrid mix or “Mediterranean”, but this isn’t always the case when looking at the diversity of Indigenous Africans, there are Africans south of the Sahara with all the exact qualifications that so and so might describe and they don’t need any “race mixing” to explain how they look. Also, they usually push the Levant as the main candidate “missing link” to explain the racial heterogeneity of the Ancient Egyptians, but this is even harder when you put in the fact that there were dark skinned via black skinned people present in the Levant. I get my opinion from the mural in the Tomb of Kheruef, which depicts bond captives from surrounding regions of Egypt. There are two bond prisoners on the mural, who happens to be indigenous to Egypt itself. One is from Lower Egypt, while the other is an Upper Egyptian, note the difference between the Lower Egyptian’s skin and the Upper Egyptian’s skin. The Lower Egyptian’s skin tone is a deep reddish complexion, while the Upper Egyptian’s skin tone is a dark brown or dark chocolate complexion. Bound captive from Lower Egypt Bound captive from Upper Egypt See, i’m mostly concerned over the wording of how he described them. “Half-breeds”, how can this word be used to describe a “natural” complexioned people in such a way, especially for it’s time? Could “half-breed” have a different meaning in this context?
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Post by kel on Oct 14, 2019 23:40:42 GMT -5
"The Egyptian elites or upper classes, I assume would of been rather fair skinned or similar to what we see in North African complexions to day"
...go away please.
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Post by Shadow on Oct 15, 2019 5:47:13 GMT -5
"The Egyptian elites or upper classes, I assume would of been rather fair skinned or similar to what we see in North African complexions to day" ...go away please. If your going to be rude and make a fuss about something I said in my previous post, you should put everything in context first! ”I am of the assumption that he (Lucius Flavius) is describing the color cline of Egypt and Nubia. In my opinion I think that the complexion of Lower Egyptians and those in the delta wouldn’t necessarily be too dark, but wouldn’t be too light either. I picture the average working class Lower Egyptian‘s complexion to having been a golden brown or honey brown hue to reddish brown hue during this time, similar to the North Sudanese. Not much different from Dynastic Egypt, but with a significant foreign presence. The Egyptian elites or upper classes, I assume would of been rather fair skinned or similar to what we see in North African complexions to day.” Here’s the other post you clearly missed! ”The reason I assume this to be the case is because I doubt that Ancient Egyptians before foreign rule was anything what we might come across as “racially” mixed. I get that this is the idea that modern Egyptologist think Ancient Egyptians have always been, especially when they compare older skulls from Lower Egypt to Upper Egypt, the crania of Upper Egypt tends to be more Negro like, while the cranial of Lower Egyptians tends to be more of a hybrid mix or “Mediterranean”, but this isn’t always the case when looking at the diversity of Indigenous Africans, there are Africans south of the Sahara with all the exact qualifications that so and so might describe and they don’t need any “race mixing” to explain how they look. Also, they usually push the Levant as the main candidate “missing link” to explain the racial heterogeneity of the Ancient Egyptians, but this is even harder when you put in the fact that there were dark skinned via black skinned people present in the Levant.”
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Post by Shadow on Oct 15, 2019 6:01:42 GMT -5
By the way, just for clarification about what I meant in my previous post, I was talking about the racial dynamic of Lower and Upper Egypt during foreign rule and not Dynastic rule! Also, it’s a little bit strange that you was only interested in this one quote, but missed my two other posts, depicting captives from Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Oct 15, 2019 18:42:40 GMT -5
I am very much intrigued by the wording the Author use to describe the the local population. I already know that this quote could most likely be a distortion made by European scholars, but I want to be sure. I couldn't find any "beneficial" information about it. I need someone to elaborate on this particular quote to know what he actually might have said or at least be sure to know what he meant. I found the full description here if you anybody might want to go through and review what he's talking about. . Doing best I can w/t primary doc and its accepted 100 yr old Eurocentric translation. Now here's my take. Seems the described border folks were nearly Sudani dark with hair like or styled like Egyptians. I see nothing bout no gene flow. BTW Philostratus includes India as black. I'll post my Manilius based cline chart and cluster map if anybody's interested.
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Post by Shadow on Oct 16, 2019 5:06:11 GMT -5
This what I needed, thanks!
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