|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 9:35:56 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 9:35:56 GMT -5
as far as having an Arab centered point of view maybe but we cannot be for certain... Think I can be pretty certain. It's been on the books for at least 124 years since F Dubois' Timbuctoo the Mysterious. Arabocentric ideology was rampant in Muslim Songhai if not in Mali or Wagadu. The 70's-80's African Studies pubs on Ghana all mention the following beliefs held by the Songhai black intelligentsia. It's factual the centuries earlier Arabic accounts know nothing about it, just as MelloMusings related. Unfortunately the es-Sudan and al-Fattash authors (es-Sadi and al-Mokhtar) were explicit that Wagadu was a kingdom founded and ruled by whites, in this case meaning Imazighen, over blacks. This thread is for more than quoting the two major tarikhs, written post Moroccan invasion and rule of Songhai empire, which inspired it. It's old but I rely on Augustin Holl Background to the Ghana EmpireJournal of Anthropological Archaeology 4, 1985 for factual info on the Soninke founded first civilization of the Dhars region of Mauritania transition into its successor the Wagadu state of Mauritania & Mali. I cannot over express the importance of interdisciplinary method of research and investigation.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 9:52:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 9:52:20 GMT -5
In the early-mid 70's I was lucky to obtain Levtzion's Ancient Ghana and Mali. There, I learned the Muslim authors of the two major tarikhs had no confidence in their own, that a black people could be original state builders without outside help.
That book's significance is well beyond the lack of agency brought out in these initial posts. It's the forerunner of his and Hopkins' Corpus of Early African Sources for West African History, another must have for the history of pre-modern Sahel/Savannah West Africa.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 10:21:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 10:21:49 GMT -5
Abd ur-Rahman es-Sadi was born to a Hausa mother in 1596 at Tin-Bukt.
He says his 4 paternal generations ago ancestor was the first white imam of the masjid Mansa Gonga Musa built and that ancestor married a Fulani.
Es-Sadi is not the only hand behind the pens of the Tarikh es-Sudan. Ahmed Baba's, d. 1627, writings are compended into it. Other writers too.
Exactly who of them wrote the following I don't know.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 10:37:12 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 10:37:12 GMT -5
Ibn al-Mukhtar, himself Soninke, authored the Tarikh al-Fattash. He wrote:
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 12:13:15 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 12:13:15 GMT -5
These two top ranking 17th century political historians, without any proofs, held to the idea pre-Islamic blacks, their forebears, did not found the first recorded W Afr empire.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 12:21:20 GMT -5
Post by zarahan on Jan 11, 2020 12:21:20 GMT -5
So they were insinuating that Arabs built or were responsible for the indigenous civilizations? How do they explain the wealth and sophisticated political structure in place BEFORE any Arabs showed up?
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 12:59:37 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 12:59:37 GMT -5
So they were insinuating that Arabs built or were responsible for the indigenous civilizations? How do they explain the wealth and sophisticated political structure in place BEFORE any Arabs showed up? Yah, and well beyond insinuating too. The one was explicit, Imazighen were responsible. The other was explict, blacks did not build it. They weren't concerned with the region's pre-Islamic wealth and sophisticated political structure, except to say Imazighen originated it 44 generations before the 17th century CE. In Islam then, it was a tenet to ignore what they called the Days of Ignorance, ie, before the advent of al-Islam. Very little believable writings from them on then except possibly the Greco-Latin authors Arabic speakers were translating. Before Big Brother and Cousin Capital took over the 'net there were downloadable PDF of at least one of the given Tarikh's. Maybe you can read 'em online via Hathitrust or JSTOR. I think my Mello bought 'em from a store. Just Google them quotes, or the book names, or the authors I posted and you're bound to get leads. I lost most my downloads when the hard drive and later the backup both died. Don't tell me bout no backup's backup or no cloud. Heehee.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 11, 2020 13:35:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 11, 2020 13:35:46 GMT -5
Of course we know nowadays the foundations of Wagadu begin 1880 BCE with Soninke urban Dhar Tichitt contemporaneous with Senwosret III, Dyn 12 Middle Kingdom Egypt. Classic Kerma too.
Don't know bout no Imazighen or no Libyans then. Urban Imazighen/Libyans? hahahahahahaaaa
As of that time • no Hyksos yet • no Israel yet • no Sea Peoples yet • no Carthage yet
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 13, 2020 21:28:46 GMT -5
Post by anansi on Jan 13, 2020 21:28:46 GMT -5
I kinda mentioned this vid lecture before, the above is part one of three so you can follow this lead to YouTube. African Dominion by Michael Gomez this
This brother put in work, the book is even more betta, he goes into the origins of Wagadu, some surprise tho , Ghana did not end with the Takrur / Almoravid defeat lead by Warjabi B Rias who may very well inspire the leaders of the Almoravid rather than the other way around , but Wagadu did even better under Mali as a subject state although now thoroughly Islamic, he also gave Gao, a certain kind of primacy in trade development for a city state. Be advised to fwd past time 5 min.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 13, 2020 22:29:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by mellomusings on Jan 13, 2020 22:29:49 GMT -5
as far as having an Arab centered point of view maybe but we cannot be for certain... Think I can be pretty certain. It's been on the books for at least 124 years since F Dubois' Timbuctoo the Mysterious. Arabocentric ideology was rampant in Muslim Songhai if not in Mali or Wagadu. The 70's-80's African Studies pubs on Ghana all mention the following beliefs held by the Songhai black intelligentsia. It's factual the centuries earlier Arabic accounts know nothing about it, just as MelloMusings related. Unfortunately the es-Sudan and al-Fattash authors (es-Sadi and al-Mokhtar) were explicit that Wagadu was a kingdom founded and ruled by whites, in this case meaning Imazighen, over blacks. This thread is for more than quoting the two major tarikhs, written post Moroccan invasion and rule of Songhai empire, which inspired it. It's old but I rely on Augustin Holl Background to the Ghana EmpireJournal of Anthropological Archaeology 4, 1985 for factual info on the Soninke founded first civilization of the Dhars region of Mauritania transition into its successor the Wagadu state of Mauritania & Mali. I cannot over express the importance of interdisciplinary method of research and investigation. Just replied to your previous reply on the other thread and came across and decided to throw my rusty twenty cents in. I agree that some African scholars possessed an Arab centered world view and completely disregarding their ancestral roots in favor towards a fabricated forgein origin for example various tribes, ethnic groups, and clans claiming descent from the tribe of Muhammed or the tribes of his disciples but this isn't anything exclusive to Africans although as a fellow person of Afro-descent I can sympathize why many take issue with this especially how hard many of us have fought to have African history especially outside of Egypt to be recognized as a truely indeginous creation. But many peope throughout the Islamic world from the Mid East and all the parts of Asia to which Islam spread and took root make similar if not more outrageous claims even some Arab tribes themselves have made such claims but going beyond the Islamic world for example you have a group of people from Britian I believe, believe that they are the descendants of Jesus and also the ridicoulus notion particulary promoted during the 19th and 20th century that Western Europeans in particular are the true founders and heirs of the Roman legacy and everything else under the sun.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 13, 2020 22:42:11 GMT -5
Post by anansi on Jan 13, 2020 22:42:11 GMT -5
Of course we know nowadays the foundations of Wagadu begin 1880 BCE with Soninke urban Dhar Tichitt contemporaneous with Senwosret III, Dyn 12 Middle Kingdom Egypt. Classic Kerma too. Don't know bout no Imazighen or no Libyans then. Urban Imazighen/Libyans? hahahahahahaaaa As of that time • no Hyksos yet • no Israel yet • no Sea Peoples yet • no Carthage yet True they remained nomadic for a very long while, and shonuff weren't no agricultralist.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 14, 2020 20:51:30 GMT -5
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 14, 2020 20:51:30 GMT -5
I ain't pointin fingers at these guys Their works are valuable primary documents I perfectly understand the political ramifications of origin mythos. Can even the hardest scientist toss ingrained since childhood teachings Just sayin this is was the Songhai school & university teaching
Congratulations and may you never complete your library/resource center.
=-=-=
See, something like the Gomez vid & book is what's been missin Makes me even angrier Big Brother & Cousin Capital stole YouTube The pains one goes thru now to "tape" a vital vid series like this
But is there really reliable evidence Takrur teamed up with Zenaga to get back on Wagadu for it hegemony over the Senegal Valley Anything that refutes Conrad, Fisher, and Makonnen? Was under some impression Wagadu and al-Murabitun teamed up to subdue holdouts into the 'new' Muslim Ghana experience
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 15, 2020 6:19:40 GMT -5
Post by anansi on Jan 15, 2020 6:19:40 GMT -5
The below kinda explains it,for if the Takrur was actually spearheading the movement,at least initially and both felt the time has come to throw off Wagadu supremacy plus the religious reason, then teaming up would make sense to such a powerful overlord.
The later clean up of the traditionalist holdout of resurgent Wagadu under Islamic rule with troops from both Almoravid and the new ruling class also makes sense.
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 15, 2020 8:42:07 GMT -5
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 15, 2020 8:42:07 GMT -5
Thanks
Wondering about proposed Takruri Lemtuna alliance not early on but specifically at the time of Wagadu's 1076-7 minor decline. Your third quote notes what I still haven't seen enough to substantiate, ie, any al-Murabitun conquest of Wagadu. Is there more to confirm what's more likely, ie, those two teaming up to Islamize unconverted Sudane.
Never posted much before on War Dyabe the first documented ruler adopting Islam in the Western Sahel, period. It was known, though overlooked or denied today, that the initiator of al-Murabitun isolated himself on a little island in the Senegal, retreating among those blacks (sudane) who already were practicing Islam. Its know Takruri of Tekrur were either Muslim before the Zenaga of what would become Mauritania or they were Sunni (orthodox) compared to Imazighen in general who had even authored their own Qu'aran in defiance of Arabization inherent in al-Islam.
To make up for the previous lack, coming up some 70s 80s book quotes
I only wish I could post them in Anansi's fresh outlook/style of presentation.
At a time when Chu & Skinner was the popular goto for the Big Three W Afr empires I was lucky to have access to Levtzion's scholarly Ancient Ghana and Mali. Another work mid level between the above two was the 1950's forerunner to the 1980's Cambridge Fage's An Introduction to the History of West Africa in its 1962 3rd edition
|
|
|
Wagadu
Jan 15, 2020 9:51:58 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 15, 2020 9:51:58 GMT -5
To avoid confusion sudane replaces Sudanese in the text. For African orthography Tekrur replaces Takrur as al-Murabitun does Almoravid(s). Gudalla and Juddala are interchangeable. Levtzion 1973:44 . Considering that and Anansi's analysis and first quote: the would be Sanhadja leader came to the Takruri to make an alliance after forming al-Murabitun but held onto its leadership. Pending exact location, that probably required permission of Tekrur's king. Surely Labi dan War-Dyabe was politically astute to conquer the Guddala. Especially if it meant making their lands another part of Tekrur's hegemony. Woodson's old 1939 African Heroes and Heroines may be where it says ibn Yacin's ribat was an isle 'retreat/hermitage' in the Senegal and that's where al-muRABITun etymology comes from.
|
|