Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jan 29, 2020 8:32:02 GMT -5
I'd guess records of sale exist for the ships. Maybe payment/expense records for capt crew engineers & techs. Other than that I personally wouldn't know how to vet other monies. The mail fraud case should have accurate figures.
Taking Garvey's word on it at face value is questionable for reasons Ycoamigofull brought out. Also, while Garvey claimed a max 6,000,000 membership role, Asante inflates it at 10,000,000. He and his unquestioning readership would be among the "too many blacks" Yco alludes.
Soberly, I hafta wonder what org anywhere in the world, outside labor unions, could even boast 10,000,000 international dues paying members?
that's the problem, too many black people took and continue to take Garey's inflated numbers at face value.
There were/are many doubters including 'Garveyites'.
Must the 'too many black people' look to non-black people for everything?
Just who exactly is this 'too many black people'? Are they quantifiable? What characteristics do they share?
The too many black people are of course the thousands who actually bought stock in the failing Black Start Line, and the many blacks in their thousands who heard of and sympathized with Garey, then had their hopes sadly crushed. We can be sure on quantification that Asante's fictitious 'ten million' blacks did not buy stock, else the line would have had more than enough money. The so-called ten million or even the revised two million members never existed. If all these were dues paying members or even half, the line would have had the money to keep going. Characteristics is that actual members of UNIA and the non member sympathizers were misled by Garvey. I am not saying they have to look to non-black people for everything, but that those who lead them should be responsible enough to not waste their hard earned money.
I would agree with you that there were many doubters in Garvey day and that yes, he did do on a big scale what no other black organization had done.
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Feb 3, 2020 9:30:12 GMT -5
Still seems a portrait of Garvey as a predator that refuses to consider the role of J Edgar cutting his teeth on destroying Black organizations by planting government agents among the ranks.
Whatever sums Garvey directed were used on more projects than just the BSL. Are you going to clue us in on the Shadyside or not? What of the captain who's said to have advised paying $165,000 for a ship worth only $25,000? Seems more at blame than Garvey. Engineers, technicians, laborers, etc had to be paid and they overcharged for shoddy work.
Don't think for a moment the gov and ytes in general wanted to see the birth of a Black industry the size and reach of which was never seen before --nor since-- and exploiting anti-Jim Crow, anti-handout, anti-colonial sentiments across 5 continents and the islands of the seas.
I have no idea but did Garvey buy a mansion for himself or did he buy the sites for Liberty Hall and other business properties including ones outside Harlem, New York, or the USA?
Had he a personal fleet of luxury vehicles or were cars obtained for the female auxiliary to learn driving & mechanics --suffering suffrage-- or trucks for product goods and services distribution?
Ghosts didn't man these projects. Nor do the too many Black people, of various walks in life and income levels who did, need any pitying as fleeced sheeple.
Are TH Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X the only Blacks who had approving parents former Garvey members/sympathizers?
And yes I see Blx in large numbers today reject the Tricolors prefering a miscolored USA flag without once considering how it was the RedBlack&Green 3 band flag came to be.
To which I would add where's this $250,000 first voyage figure that's being thrown around coming from? So far, nothing concrete produced.
You will probably go over it with a fine tooth comb and a long spiel, but I found the figure from Marcus Garey himself saying so. Here it is. The Crisis reported on the Garvey trial and gave a direct quotation by Marcus Garvey that they lost 250,000 on the first trip.
The Crisis No 23, 1921.
*Orr, a stockholder, sued Garvey. ____________________________________________________
[Garvey] We contracted to bring a carload of whiskey valued at five million dollars and the ship, in sailing out between here and Sandy Hook, was caught in a gale and was damaged badly and put back into port, and there were several raids on the whiskey; when it came back, Prohibition <was in effect; the ship was raided several times, whiskey was stolen; we had a great deal of trouble with the Federal Government, costing us thousands of dollars; ultimately the ship was repaired in Cuba; we experienced a tie-up of two months with this cargo of whiskey with a crew of over fifty men and we experienced some trouble in Cuba in handling the whiskey; when she did clear from Cuba, she went to the West Indies and also had an accident there and returned, and we lost on that trip from 250 to 300 thousand dollars, and on another trip we lost about 75 thousand dollars; there were extensive repairs done on the boat, and even against our instructions because the captain of the boat did things on his own account, and we were held liable for it.
The following extracts are from [docs]certified copy of the sworn testimony at this trial.
Q. What did you mean by testifying you lost about a quarter of a million dollars on that cargo? ^
A. Because we had to pay the cost of the undelivered cargo; we had to pay the cost of the repairs of the boat.
The Court: You had to pay for what disappeared? ^
Q. Did all of that cargo disappear, or a few cases? ^
A. Part of the cargo.
Q. Do you mean for the Court to understand that you, at the head of a corporation that had a load of whiskey on their boat, that because it was destroyed or confiscated, you had to pay for it, is that what you want the Court to believe? ^
A. We had to pay for the cargo that was not delivered for which we contracted to deliver.