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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 14:52:04 GMT -5
Never mind the BS introduction just look at the facts....ie data. Tell me what you think? If the RV88 is predominantly in West Africans === QUOTE: DNA Evidence of a Croatian and Sephardic Jewish Settlement on the North Carolina Coast Dating from the Mid to Late 1500sFor the Sephardic Jews of Spain, the year 1492 saw one door close while another door opened half a world away.1 It was the year the Spanish Inquisition reached its apex of brutality, while concurrently Cristobal Colon—remembered in American history as Christopher Columbus and purportedly of Sephardic descent —set sail for the New World.2 The names of his crew suggest that several of them were also Sephards.3 By the mid-1500s, Spain had expelled between 100,000 to 200,000 Jews after first seizing their money and possessions.4 The Spanish Jews fled in all directions: eastward to Italy and the Ottoman Empire,5 westward to Portugal, northward over the Pyrenees to France, and southward across the narrow Strait of Gibraltar to North Africa.6 Another 10,000 to 20,000 remained behind, to later be killed by the Inquisitorial Court,7 while an additional 30,000 converted (often superficially) to Catholicism.8 If their insincerity was suspected, they too were added to the bonfires of the auto-da-fé.9
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 14:55:55 GMT -5
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 15:05:09 GMT -5
How long did it take to cross the Atlantic?
== Quote" This article proposes that the reason for their desire to exit England was the threat of Spanish invasion in one or two years’ time and their ethnic status as Sephardic Jews. In other words, if one were a converso merchant/tradesman in London, it was a good time to move west. Already many Portuguese and Bristol (England) fishing vessels were visiting the Atlantic Coast regularly for cod fishing, while English privateers such as Drake, Gilbert, and Grenville were preying on Spanish silver galleons in the south Atlantic.18 Many of the crew members aboard these ships were, in fact, conversos, as the manifests indicate."
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 15:16:50 GMT -5
Holy Sh...!! Holy Sh....!!!
This what I have hoping to find R-V88 in the Americas. 1500's Holy Sh------!!!!
quote: "Turning to Haplogroups J1 and J2 (n=16), as well as E-L117 (n=4), one finds there is a distinct presence of Middle Eastern and North African DNA among the Lumbee males. In fact, there are more Middle Eastern male lines among the Lumbee than there are Native American male lines. Moreover, there are twenty-one lines among the Lumbee men which carry the R-m512/R1a1a haplotype. This haplotype is found in approximately 50 percent of male Ashkenazi Levites, a hereditary caste within Judaism.72 In addition, the majority of the male Lumbee sample carries the R-v88 subclade of the Rm269 haplogroup."
The R-v88 DNA haplotypes provide additional support for ancestry from the Croatian area, as well as support for the presence of Sephardic Jews among the Roanoke colonists, as hypothesized. Thus, the hypotheses is supported for the male portion of the Lumbee database.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 15:59:48 GMT -5
The Lumbee Tribe is the largest tribe in North Carolina, the l argest tribe east of the Mississippi River and the ninth largest in the nation. The Lumbee take their name from the Lumbee River which winds its way through Robeson County. Pembroke, North Carolina is the economic, cultural and political center of the tribe.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 16:04:47 GMT -5
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 5, 2020 19:30:33 GMT -5
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Post by zarahan on Mar 5, 2020 21:06:06 GMT -5
Not surprising. Jews have been relatively mobile and are found all over the place. When the Portuguese emerged big time into the Indian Ocean, the Swahili Coast and on into West and West Central Africa, and on into Brazil in South America, no doubt Jews would have been represented in that movement in various capacities.
What do you have on African elements among the mixed Lumbee population as regards the 121 samples? How old or recent? If said elements are of an early 1400s-1500s date, then the Africans too must have been part of the mix among the Portuguese and/or Spanish colonists, which would not be surprising either, though no doubt the dreaded "negro blood" would be upsetting to some "purists."
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 6, 2020 6:33:55 GMT -5
Forest for the trees. R V88. The Vast majority of Lumbee are R V88. The Majority female are mtDNA H.
DNA do not lie but can be misinterpreted.
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Anyways quote:
"Discussion One of the distinct advantages of DNA testing, as compared to documents, for historical research is that DNA consists of biological material which, when competently analyzed in a laboratory, does not lie. Documents can be lost, forged, altered and misplaced, as has happened in several well-known cases. 80 DNA—as a set of chemical molecules—is apolitical, nonreligious, disinterested in disputes over national boundaries, and impartial to claims of sovereignty. Although British language and culture came to dominate North America, it is important for us to recognize that the English were beaten to the Americas’shores by the Spanish, French and, as the present paper argues, even Croatians, during the 1400s and 1500s. After the American Revolution, the majority of North American colonists continued their British traditions; while those persons who were Native American, Spanish, French, or Croatian were relegated to remote locales on the continent, such as, Oklahoma, Southern Texas, Mexico, Acadian Canada, New Orleans, and Robeson County, NC. Little Croatoan Island, its ethnically mixed inhabitants having migrated fifty miles inland and taking their secrets with them, was renamed Hatteras and its true history over-written with the celebration of British Jamestown. But the true ancestry of these early arrivals has lived on, rediscovered through the advance of human genetics."
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Mar 8, 2020 11:03:05 GMT -5
These authors think V88 came from M269??? I agree this is a horse mess "study". Rank amateur witholding of raw data. Cannot vet R-V88 haplogroup geography. Afr reported HGs * show as the plurality. The reported DNA hasn't been dated nor is it aDNA. This present day snapshot of Uniparentals can support an African settlement. The people being migrants from somewhere between the Senegal and Ebro rivers. That's the old al-Murabitun territory. Add trading associated Euros. Can't ignore a smattering of Original Americans.
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Post by kel on Mar 8, 2020 20:35:41 GMT -5
"The Vast majority of Lumbee are R V88. The Majority female are mtDNA H."
Fine.
But what is the historical narrative that would explain that ?
Ancient Africans in America way way pre Colombian. Then new comers arrive 'H'. The Women are taken ....their male counterparts killed.... absorbed ..?
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Post by kel on Mar 10, 2020 14:52:46 GMT -5
"This present day snapshot of Uniparentals can support an African settlement. The people being migrants from somewhere between the Senegal and Ebro rivers. That's the old al-Murabitun territory. Add trading associated Euros. Can't ignore a smattering of Original Americans." Yes. Moors ?
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 10, 2020 20:12:28 GMT -5
We keep missing the big picture.......regardless of what we were taught, what we thought, what we read. The FACTS are 1. Majority lineage is ancient African males and Ancient European females. R-V88 is dated about 12,000 years ago mtDNA H is dated >20,000 years ago E-M2 is dated about 5000 years ago and was NOT in West Africa until about AfTER 3000BC R1b-M269 is dated about 6000BC. a deep dive is needed of so called Native Americans - www.familytreedna.com/public/AmericanIndian?iframe=yresultsAre these R1b-M269 really R-V88? The author is either confused or deliberately lying. These are NOT Sephardic Jews. These are African men. When and how they got there is open to debate.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Mar 12, 2020 8:34:18 GMT -5
We keep missing the big picture.......regardless of what we were taught, what we thought, what we read. The FACTS are 1. Majority lineage is ancient African males and Ancient European females. R-V88 is dated about 12,000 years ago mtDNA H is dated >20,000 years ago E-M2 is dated about 5000 years ago and was NOT in West Africa until about AfTER 3000BC R1b-M269 is dated about 6000BC. a deep dive is needed of so called Native Americans - www.familytreedna.com/public/AmericanIndian?iframe=yresultsAre these R1b-M269 really R-V88? The author is either confused or deliberately lying. These are NOT Sephardic Jews. These are African men. When and how they got there is open to debate. The date a Hg diverged isn't the date its sub-HGs did. Just to be perfectly clear, R-V88 dating 12,000 years ago don't mean its that old everywhere its found. The authors don't know from *. L754 R1b1a * M269 R1b1a1a2 -- 3 steps removed from L754 *.. V88 R1b1a2 ----- 1 step removed from L754 Their sources may have the actual mutations. Again, shop D'atanasio for her origin and downstream info including divergence, originating pops, and hi freq pops. 4 _.__ V88 V2197 V4963 V1589 V1589* continues with Massa Guiziga Guidar Hausa Toupouri_Cam Ouldeme Fula_Cam Siwi Egyptian_S Tuareg Ewondo Mzabi . 4 5.61 V88 V2197 V4963 V1589 V6255 V6994 240 includes Massa Gambai_Cam Toupouri_Cha Madjingay Tali Ouldeme Siwi Egyptian_N Fula_Cam 6 _.__ V88 V2197 V4963 V1589 V516 V69 V69* also has Daba Massa Mada Fula_Cam Tali Siwi FaliMeanwhile let's not overlook the 121 mtDNA L samples and the 74 E-M2 nrY guys. Can't just play favorites. Original American HGs found, A B C D F and A B C, were miniscule. Quick vetting confirms A B C D -- no F but X instead. No A B -- but Q R1 C are male 'Skins' norms. That R is M273 ? ? ? Who in the Inferno were the peers? Considering your advice re teaching thinking and reading. What "FACTS" negate Africans from being Sepharade? Is it given that Iberian Jewry stems greatly from Med Africa. muse.jhu.edu/book/10471The name registry Table 4 cannot be wished away or ignored. The fact of Nação Portuguesa names bears explanation which must be based on other than best guess speculation. Idrissa Ba Continuité ou discontinuité de la présence juive à Walâta et dans le Sahel ouest-africain du XVe au XIXe siècleRevue d'histoire Année 2008 358-359 pp. 147-185
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Mar 12, 2020 22:05:52 GMT -5
Nice deep dive Sage. I have been reading so many papers and writing so many post I forgot about this paper. Maybe we can pinpoint which RV88.
MtDNA L is important but the mtDNA H major clade is more significant
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