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Post by truthcentric on Jun 4, 2010 0:12:59 GMT -5
I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him?
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Post by anansi on Jun 4, 2010 1:20:19 GMT -5
I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him? You have a lot of resources from here and E/S plus TNV Myra's link The Explorer's blog why is it so hard ?..what more do you need to combat some Eurocentrist?..ask him where does he believe the Kemites came from ? if he say something like the "Middle East or Southern Europe" ask him to back that up!!... population genetic is on your side physical anthropology is on your side linguist is on your side archeology is on your side...the traditions of the Kemites themselves is on your side ..you don't need to convince him just show him..if he refuse to acknowledge what you presented then most likely you are being baited into wasting your time. |
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Jun 4, 2010 1:43:05 GMT -5
I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him? Show him an assortment of pictures of modern Egyptians light and dark, then ask him which end of the bus would they have had to sit in in 1950 Alabama. One other thing, don't use the term black, its a slipery slope and doesn't have the same meaning across cultures. They were/are Africans, and there are lots of light skinned straight haired Africans running all over the Sahara, again, which end of the bus?...... Don't get caught up playing these people's game. There is nothing you will do, nothing you will say, no amount of evidence you will ever show them that will change their minds. Its not about knowledge or truth or understanding. These people have personal axes to grind and that is that. Mathilda is a perfect example. Arguing with them is a waste of your time and energy and will go nowhere. The rules of the game were created by them and just when you get the upper hand, you'll find the rules have changed, always in their favor. Therefore, Eithiopians who have been the representatives of the "black race" all over the Ancient world suddenly become caucasians and actually a part of the same race as Europeans, yet Afro americans with the same craniofacial measurements are still niggers. Somalis and other East Africans are shown to have "eurasian" DNA and are therefore caucasians, but afroAmericans with 35% and more European DNA and even European Y lineages are still niggers. Honestly, you have far more important and productive things to do than wasting your time arguing with people who believe in Atlantis, reptilian supernatural beings and ancient Egypts Martian origins. It my experience that these blond nordic Egypt types usually believe in this crap. Others like Mathilda have a personal ax to grind. Usually if you dig deep enough you find out the got the snot kicked out of them by a black guy, or they were picked on by the black kids in school, or a few black people called them bad names  . They will say anything just to deliberately wind you up, even if they have to contradict themselves to do so, as is the case with miss M. |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jun 4, 2010 7:18:12 GMT -5
Quote from Brandon: "What should I do with him?"  Brandon, 5 yrs on ES. tsk! tsk! But ASSuming your are serious. . . You discourse or debate with people who are intellectually or knowledgablly your equal. Usually you can tell within the first 5 minutes. . .or less. If his/her argument is "pictures" that is a good indicator that it will be a short conversation. No one in their right mind believes AEians are Nordic white people. Not even Euroecentrics like Dirk, Hammer and Gigantic. Only the loonies believe that. They look at faded color of the hair on AEians as think it is blond or red-head. Check out YouTube The only "legimate" argument the more astute Eurocentric have is using the term "Caucasian" ie black Caucasians. They are fully aware that AEians are black, infact very dark. They consistently use the term "Caucasian" to conjure up in the mind of the uninformed images of white people. They use the straight hair and nose as the basis of their argument. And for those over 25yrs or age, even younger, this is what we were taught. It is only within the last 10yrs or so we learned that is NOT the case. As I said a thousand times they need to prove the genetic, linguistic, cultural and Anthroplogical relations between AEians and people on the other side of the Sea. I assume YOU can prove the converse.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Jun 4, 2010 18:55:40 GMT -5
The following posts by me, mention the Fayum portaits and the fact that these people were of both Egyptian and Greeco-Roman descent. To further my point, it was Arabs who described indigenous Lower Egyptians as "Half-Caste Ethiopians", therefore it's even more likely that there was significant admixture during the Greeco-Roman era which spanned more then a century. The Fayum mummy portraits are a great example, the images depict Lower Egyptians with "documented" Greek ancestry. The people depicted possess features seen among modern Lower Egyptians, in regard to that the average Fayum mummy portrait is no different then what we see in Lower Egypt today. They possess obvious AFRICAN and NON-AFRICAN features, likely due to the fact that they are of both indigenous Egyptian and Greeco descent. Arsinoe IV of Egypt comes to mind, I remember reading a quote from an article which stated that she physically resembled modern Egyptians, in that she possessed both AFRICAN and NON-AFRICAN features, in this case Southwest Asian, i.e. Greek, and African, i.e. indigenous Egyptian, admixture. Basically a MULATTO population. "They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Graeco-Roman traditions than Egyptian ones. The population of the Faiyum area was greatly enhanced by a wave of Greek immigrants during the Ptolemaic period, initially by veteran soldiers who settled in the area." "Under Greco-Roman rule, Egypt hosted several Greek settlements, mostly concentrated in Alexandria, but also in a few other cities, where Greek settlers lived alongside some seven to ten million native Egyptians. Faiyum's earliest Greek inhabitants were soldier-veterans and cleruchs (elite military officials) who were settled by the Ptolemaic kings on reclaimed lands. Native Egyptians also came to settle in Faiyum from all over the country, notably the Nile Delta, Upper Egypt, Oxyrhynchus and Memphis, to undertake the labor involved in the land reclamation process, as attested by personal names, local cults and recovered papyri. It is estimated that as much as 30 percent of the population of Faiyum was Greek during the Ptolemaic period, with the rest being native Egyptians. By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins." " "While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits instead reflect the complex synthesis of the predominant Egyptian culture and that of the elite Greek minority in the city. According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations. However, Kemp, from an inference of cranio-facial traits and limb proportions of numerous skeletal remains, postulated much immigration into the more northern parts of Egypt, indicative of the population "tending towards a greater similarity with European populations than had been the case earlier" upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Fayum-35.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Fayum-07.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Fayum-34.jpg/Hawara_MoS_1911.210.1.JPG" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/ /Hawara_MoS_1911.210.1.JPGupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Fayum-22.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Fayum-20.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Fayum-13.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Fayum-11.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Fayum-01.jpgCompare to reconstruction of Arsinoe IV of Egypt, who was of mixed Egyptian and Greek descent. www.africanamericanculturalcenterpalmcoast.org/historyafrican/arsinoe.jpg |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 4, 2010 19:10:28 GMT -5
How in the world can YOU claim to be arguing with anybody when you can't hold your end of it by yourself but run to others for help? If you don't know enough to stand on your own two feet then leave it alone. Otherwise point the way to the opponent and let those who actually know their stuff present their arguments firsthand instead of having unconvincingly 'mispresented' by YOU. I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him? |
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Post by Charlie Bass on Jun 4, 2010 23:46:46 GMT -5
The best advice is to have your sources in order and stay prepared and constantly seeking new information and get in contact with the professionals and ask question and receive replies. As al-Takruri said, you must be able to hold your own, thats something I've learned from debating in numerous forums, if you're not prepared you'll get embarrassed.
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Post by Charlie Bass on Jun 4, 2010 23:48:01 GMT -5
I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him? Which forum are you having this debate at? |
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Post by truthcentric on Jun 5, 2010 21:31:20 GMT -5
I'm arguing with a Eurocentric poster who claims that the ancient Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" rather than black. He bases his argument on portraits of Egyptians from the Greco-Roman era and claims that they don't look the least bit "black" because they are too light-skinned and straight-haired. Showing him physical anthropological evidence that pre-Greco-Roman-era Egyptians were more closely related to blacks and that Egyptians mixed substantially with foreigners during the Late Period doesn't seem to have swayed him. What should I do with him? Which forum are you having this debate at? This was on DeviantArt, but we've stopped arguing when it became apparent that neither of us was convincing the other. |
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Jun 8, 2010 12:12:09 GMT -5
Hey Doc. Insightful post . . .as usual. we can take this to another thread(new) but help me out with a few things. 1. I said this about 2ya. Understanding who Fayoum painting depict will clarify who the Greek were. 2. There seem to be contention between Eurocentric as to whether the Fayoum represents Greek colonist OR mixed Greek/Egyptian. Your post re-enforces that belief. Quote: "While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits . . . " "However, Kemp, from an inference of cranio-facial traits and limb proportions of numerous skeletal remains, postulated much immigration into the more northern parts of Egypt, indicative of the population " tending towards a greater similarity with European populations than had been the case earlier"" " The following posts by me, mention the Fayum portaits and the fact that these people were of both Egyptian and Greeco-Roman descent. To further my point, it was Arabs who described indigenous Lower Egyptians as "Half-Caste Ethiopians", therefore it's even more likely that there was significant admixture during the Greeco-Roman era which spanned more then a century. The Fayum mummy portraits are a great example, the images depict Lower Egyptians with "documented" Greek ancestry. The people depicted possess features seen among modern Lower Egyptians, in regard to that the average Fayum mummy portrait is no different then what we see in Lower Egypt today. They possess obvious AFRICAN and NON-AFRICAN features, likely due to the fact that they are of both indigenous Egyptian and Greeco descent. Arsinoe IV of Egypt comes to mind, I remember reading a quote from an article which stated that she physically resembled modern Egyptians, in that she possessed both AFRICAN and NON-AFRICAN features, in this case Southwest Asian, i.e. Greek, and African, i.e. indigenous Egyptian, admixture. Basically a MULATTO population. "They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Graeco-Roman traditions than Egyptian ones. The population of the Faiyum area was greatly enhanced by a wave of Greek immigrants during the Ptolemaic period, initially by veteran soldiers who settled in the area." "Under Greco-Roman rule, Egypt hosted several Greek settlements, mostly concentrated in Alexandria, but also in a few other cities, where Greek settlers lived alongside some seven to ten million native Egyptians. Faiyum's earliest Greek inhabitants were soldier-veterans and cleruchs (elite military officials) who were settled by the Ptolemaic kings on reclaimed lands. Native Egyptians also came to settle in Faiyum from all over the country, notably the Nile Delta, Upper Egypt, Oxyrhynchus and Memphis, to undertake the labor involved in the land reclamation process, as attested by personal names, local cults and recovered papyri. It is estimated that as much as 30 percent of the population of Faiyum was Greek during the Ptolemaic period, with the rest being native Egyptians. By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins." " "While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits instead reflect the complex synthesis of the predominant Egyptian culture and that of the elite Greek minority in the city. According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations. However, Kemp, from an inference of cranio-facial traits and limb proportions of numerous skeletal remains, postulated much immigration into the more northern parts of Egypt, indicative of the population "tending towards a greater similarity with European populations than had been the case earlier" upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Fayum-35.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Fayum-07.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Fayum-34.jpg/Hawara_MoS_1911.210.1.JPG" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8//Hawara_MoS_1911.210.1.JPGupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Fayum-22.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Fayum-20.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Fayum-13.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Fayum-11.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Fayum-01.jpgCompare to reconstruction of Arsinoe IV of Egypt, who was of mixed Egyptian and Greek descent. www.africanamericanculturalcenterpalmcoast.org/historyafrican/arsinoe.jpg |
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. They will say anything just to deliberately wind you up, even if they have to contradict themselves to do so, as is the case with miss M.
Brandon, 5 yrs on ES. tsk! tsk! 
/Hawara_MoS_1911.210.1.JPG