Politician seeks to end American Negro culture

[truth]

[homeylu]

I agree with the senator, and I think most African American parents my age would agree as well; these young men do not need to imitate a culture that stems from prison. With that said, I fail to see how this 'subculture' could be classified as "negro" culture. As usual, you are trying to be provocative, which is so typical of you.

[truth]

Why not see the merit of the thread, instead of trying to find some trivial matter to harp on?

Apr 4, 2010 19:18:43 GMT -5 homeylu said:

I agree with the senator, and I think most African American parents my age would agree as well; these young men do not need to imitate a culture that stems from prison. With that said, I fail to see how this 'subculture' could be classified as "negro" culture. As usual, you are trying to be provocative, which is so typical of you.

[homeylu]

Afrikan, this is a hasty generalization, based on the fallacy of exclusion. You have excluded the evidence to show how wearing saggy pants is popularly accepted by mainstream or even proponents of Africentrism, which would validate the claim that my position opposing said gear would constitute a position held exclusively by “Eurocentric “ opponents. In this regard the equivocation of your position that my opinion is of Eurocentric value, constitutes a fallacy on your behalf.

It is not my position to argue what the NYS senator should be focusing on, as he is an ELECTED representative of his district, and his supporters should determine if he is meeting his campaign promises, not me. But I’m sure given the fact that he is a public figure, you could reasonably research his position on the issues you proposed, before debating ad hominim.

I will not respond to the rest of your argument as the judgmental language displayed is weak as best.

I hold on to my conviction that young men should not be imitating a tradition such as “sagging” which is reported to have roots in the homosexual prison population. I was informed that gay or bisexual men in numerous prison populations would allow their pants to sag, thereby allowing their ‘sex’ partner ease of access. On these grounds , I do not support it as a so-called fashion expression. And I do not believe that this is what our forefathers had in mind when fighting for our civil liberties.

[homeylu]

Now you are speaking about two entirely different issues (Legal Rights vs Social Norms), and you need to make a distinction between the two. This is not about African Americans, now you’re falling into Truth’s trap. This is about a particular sub-culture, many of whom just happen to be African Americans. ALL AA do not wear their pants sagging. Now there is another sub-culture thrown into the equation (homosexual prison population) again, although some within this particular population just happen to be AA, doesn’t mean that they are representative of AA in general. These are how stereotypes are propagated.

Now my argument is along the following logic: Subculture A, should not imitate Subculture B, because of the “negative” connotations associated with Subculture B.

Now you have a totally irrelevant argument along the basis of : Subculture A is part of CULTURE A, therefore if you criticize the elements of Subculture A, you are in essence criticizing CULTURE A in it’s entirety. Which is fallacious, because as I am part of CULTURE A, the element that is being criticized is not representative of me, as well as the MAJORITY of others belonging to CULTURE A.

Then in an attempt to strengthen your position, you threw in an additional element which is completely irrelevant: How ‘Main Culture C’ celebrates holidays, and further since the politician didn’t criticize the way ‘Main Culture C’ celebrates holidays, then said politician is an “Uncle Tom” because you are assuming that he has only criticized Subculture A, yet you have provided no evidence to convince us that the politician has never criticized ANY elements of Main Culture C. When the fact is, said politician pioneered efforts to prevent bad elements of Main Culture C, from racial profiling and unjustly targeting members of Subculture A, which would refute the testament of said politician being an “Uncle Tom”.


To answer the question part of your argument: “Additionally, do you have any problems with the way these people are dressed? Would you like to force them to put on the clothes you see ‘fit’? Why or why not? “

The first part of your question was already answered, as originally stated that I “agreed with the senator’s position”, so it’s safe to assume that I do have ‘issues’ with the way they are dressed. I’ve already explained my reasoning behind the roots of the particular dress-code. And being an active advocate of this particular subgroup this concerns me. As an African American parent, a Black Woman, the protector of our ‘race’, I do not want future generations mimicking the activities of a culture(homosexual prisoners) which I personally deem in a negative light, which would in turn portray a negative depiction of said group (AA teens). Especially since I know most of the members of this group are NOT convicted homosexuals themselves. This is called generating “awareness’, there is NOTHING “forceful” about it at all. On the contrary, it allows the group to make ‘conscious’ decisions based on a new reality.

Personally I am responsible for approx 600 students annually. And when this ‘awareness’ was brought to the attention of those concerned, most of them ‘consciously’ chose to dismiss the fashion trend altogether. Choosing another alternative of simply wearing “baggy” jeans. Do you find anything “forceful” in the alternatives provided. I don’t think so.

Further, it is my lifelong passion to increase the awareness of the accomplishments made by our ancestors to these young people. It is not necessary for me to ’broaden’ the stereotypes of our ancestors accomplishing nothing more than running around the forest hunting and gathering in their tribal gear with bows and arrows. I think “The Man” has already done an effective job of propagating this image without my assistance and I refuse to become one of his ‘flunkies‘. However if you feel the necessity to “assist The Man”, then be my guest, and teach them how to do a nice ’tap dancing black face’ while you’re at it, and then we can reveal who is the REAL Uncle Tom or should I say SAMBO?

It’s also sad that the only image you manage to exemplify ‘traditional’ African clothing happens to be a piece of torn off cloth. We have an array of clothing styles, both CONSERVATIVE and traditional. No need to suggest that the concept of "covering head to toe" is only a concept of "white people"

[truthcentric]

Apr 6, 2010 9:47:26 GMT -5 homeylu said:

It’s also sad that the only image you manage to exemplify ‘traditional’ African clothing happens to be a piece of torn off cloth. We have an array of clothing styles, both CONSERVATIVE and traditional. No need to suggest that the concept of "covering head to toe" is only a concept of "white people"

Does anyone else here doubt that globalafrikanpower is for real? Some of the things he has said are so ridiculous that it makes me think he's mocking what he perceives to be Afrocentric positions.

[anansi]

There are rebels in just about any new world culture especially among the young and most went through it at sometime in their lives I was not around for the sixties revolution but I can tell you from viewing documentaries that they were different from their parents who had a different out-look from back in the 40ts..But Negro culture??..who are the Negroes?? and do Blacks or AAs all behave in the same way..would a black middle class family from Atlanta behave in the same manner as some folks from East New York..and how about the super-connected and super-rich...like the Powell family and others..do they all subscribe to the same mannerism??..

The question should be what is the cultural differences between the classes..and keep in mind just having a lot of money does not gurantee entrance into the Black upper class or super class..as these are connected through social networks and organizations..I think any one from say an old middle to upper class Black especially southern family knows what I am talking about.

[Charlie Bass]

I don't believe in anything called "Negro" culture or "ghetto" culture. Those are expressions that have been placed on young blacks who don't fit the norm of what whites think things should be. Some people actually think there is a "ghetto" culture out there that praises and rewards bad behavior, yet I haven't encountered one black who believes in any such thing, the small fringe element amongst our people represents just that, a small fringe element.

[truthcentric]

If there really is a "ghetto culture" out there, it probably has more to do with class than ethnicity. If blacks really are overrepresented in this "ghetto culture", it's because they tend to be disproportionately concentrated in areas where that kind of culture thrives, not because of something inherent in African-American culture.

This big essay by Tim Wise cites some data showing that adjusting for various environmental factors, blacks aren't really more likely to commit crimes than whites:

Again, I have never claimed that black crime is due to white racism, especially of the conspiratorial--"let's get black folks"--variety. Rather, higher black crime rates reflect the specific conditions that stem from a number of socioeconomic realities that disproportionately face the black community. Now sure, some of those conditions stem from a history of discrimination in housing and elsewhere, such that blacks have been concentrated in highly populated urban areas, with less job opportunity, etc (See, Massey and Denton, American Apartheid, Harvard Press, 1994; or Oliver and Shapiro, Black Wealth/White Wealth: A New Perspective on Racial Inequality. Routledge, 1995). But it is also due to fairly impersonal economic developments, such as the collapse of manufacturing in the cities, and the resulting job crisis. In neither case am I blaming racism per se, in the sense we traditionally think of the term. Not at all.

Anyway, as I was saying, according to several studies, socioeconomic variables explain the difference between white and black violence rates, and where economic conditions are comparable between whites and blacks, there are no significant racial crime differences (Krivo, L.J. and R.D. Peterson, 1996. "Extremely Disadvantaged Neighborhoods and Urban Crime," Social Forces. 75, 2. December: 619-48.; Chasin, Barbara, 1997. Inequality and Violence in the United States: Casualties of Capitalism. NJ: Humanities Press International: 49). In fact, the correlation between economic variables and crime are remarkably consistent from one society to the next. Evidence gathered from more than thirty countries has found that race and ethnicity have far less to do with crime than these environmental factors (Mukherjee, Satyanshu. 1999. "Ethnicity and Crime," Trends and Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice. Australian Institute of Criminology: Canberra. May: 1).

Although whites also suffer poverty, black poverty is more severe and more likely to correlate with crime. Seven out of ten poor whites live in stable, mostly non-poor neighborhoods, while eighty-five percent of the black poor live in mostly poor areas (Johnson, Calvin and Chanchalat Chanhatasilpa, 2003. "The Race/Ethnicity and Poverty Nexus of Violent Crime: Reconciling Differences in Chicago's Community Area Homicide Rates," in Violent Crime: Assessing Race and Ethnic Differences. Darnell Hawkins, ed., Cambridge University Press: 98.; also, Smith, Robert C. 1995. Racism in the Post Civil Rights Era: Now You See it, Now You Don't. SUNY Press: 128).

Blacks are three times more likely to live in extreme poverty than whites (less than half the poverty line) (Sklar, Holly, 1998. "Let Them Eat Cake," Z Magazine, November: 31), and six times more likely to live in concentrated poverty neighborhoods (Wachtel, Paul L. 1999. Race in the Mind of America: Breaking the Vicious Circle Between Blacks and Whites. NY: Routledge, 294, fn 15). Indeed, three-quarters of persons living in concentrated poverty neighborhoods are people of color (powell, john, 2001. "Socioeconomic School Integration," Poverty and Race Research Action Council Bulletin, 10: 6, November/December: 6).

Looking specifically at homicide rates, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that crowded housing was the key to higher murder rates among blacks in the U.S. When census tracts with similar incomes, population density and housing conditions are compared, racial murder rate differences evaporate, (Pope, John, 1995, "Murder linked to dense poverty," New Orleans Times-Picayune. June 14). because the poorest neighborhoods have similar homicide rates, no matter racial composition (Johnson, Calvin and Chanchalat Chanhatasilpa, 2003. "The Race/Ethnicity and Poverty Nexus of Violent Crime: Reconciling Differences in Chicago's Community Area Homicide Rates," in Violent Crime: Assessing Race and Ethnic Differences. Darnell Hawkins, ed., Cambridge University Press: 106).

A 1990 meta-analysis of twenty-one different studies on homicide, covering thirty years of research found much the same thing: among all the factors positively correlated with higher homicide rates, two of the most significant were unemployment rates and community resource deprivation (Land, K., P.L. McCall and L.E. Cohen, 1990. "Structural Covariates of Homicide Rates: Are There Any Invariances Across Time and Social Space?" American Journal of Sociology, 95: 922-63).

Indeed, racial crime gaps in the U.S. are largely a reflection of geography. Since blacks are more concentrated in cities, which have higher crime rates no matter their racial makeup, the crime rate among blacks is skewed upwards; but this has nothing to do with any genetic or cultural predisposition to crime. In large measure, because cities are more crowded, and because crowded areas tend to increase levels of anonymity amongst residents, and chip away at the levels of organization in a neighborhood, they will be the site of elevated levels of crime (Johnson and Chanhatasilpa, 2003: 97). Adjusting violent crime rates for levels of urbanization alone cuts the racial disproportion in half, with economic conditions explaining the remainder (Zimring, Franklin and Gordon Hawkins, 1997. Crime is Not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America. NY: Oxford University Press: 82-3; 234-236).

In fact, absent a litany of socioeconomic factors, there is no substantial independent relationship between a community's racial composition and its homicide rates (Johnson and Chanhatasilpa, 2003: 92). Although the homicide rate among "middle class" blacks is higher than that for middle class whites, the reasons for this have nothing to do with race: middle class blacks tend to live in much closer proximity to poor communities, tend to be substantially less well off than middle class whites, and are thus exposed to more negative social influences than whites of their same general class group (Ibid, 107).

The role of social and economic environment and community conditions in determining crime rates is particularly evident among juveniles. A comprehensive analysis of homicide and robbery data, which looked at the importance of such things as race, poverty, family disruption and unemployment in determining crime rates in these categories, found that black male joblessness explained black family disruption, which in turn was highly related to black murder and robbery rates, particularly for youth (Hawkins, Darnell, John H. Laub, Janet L. Lauritsen, and Lynn Cothern, 2000. "Race, Ethnicity and Serious and Violent Juvenile Offending," Juvenile Justice Bulletin. U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Programs, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, June.)

Further research has demonstrated that racial differences in delinquent behavior can be explained entirely by the highly unequal community conditions faced by white youth and those of color (Ibid). One study of white and black youth in the Pittsburgh area, for example, found that Black youth residing in neighborhoods more similar to their non-poor white counterparts, were no more likely to engage in acts of delinquency than their white peers (Peoples, F. and R. Loeber, 1994. "Do Individual Factors and Neighborhood Context Explain Ethnic Differences in Juvenile Delinquency?" Journal of Quantitative Criminology. 10, 2. June: 141-57).

Examination of longitudinal data indicates that once an assortment of economic and social variables are controlled for by the common social science technique of regression analysis, blacks are no more likely than whites to commit crimes, are less likely to commit property crimes than whites, and Latinos are also less likely to commit crimes than non-Hispanics (Crutchfield, Robert D. 1995. "Ethnicity, Labor Markets and Crime," in Ethnicity, Race, and Crime: Perspectives Across Time and Place, Darnell F. Hawkins, ed., State University of New York Press: 200-201).

Also, while it's true that certain social ills are positively correlated with urban poverty, has anyone ever wondered whether other social ills are correlated with higher socioeconomic statuses? Perhaps rich people have their own "ghetto culture", albeit one promoting a different set of ills than the poor "ghetto culture".

[kingscorpion]

Apr 4, 2010 9:29:30 GMT -5 truth said:

Firstly, it's wrong to define saggy pants as exemplifying "American Negro Culture." Secondly, I don't know if I'd compare saggy pants to racist charicatures from the turn of the 20th century.