|
Post by olehint on Jul 6, 2010 19:27:36 GMT -5
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found nothing which can be directly related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and it has become increasingly clear that Iron Age Israel - the kingdoms of Judah and Israel - has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt: the culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.While some archaeologists leave open the possibility of a Semitic tribe coming from Egyptian servitude among the early hilltop settlers and that Moses or a Moses-like figure may have existed in Transjordan ca 1250-1200, they dismiss the possibility that the Exodus could have happened as described in the bible ____________________________________________
you think Exodus is completely made up? maybe then we have this piece later:
In the Elephantine papyri, caches of legal documents and letters written in Aramaic amply document the lives of a community of Jewish soldiers stationed in there as part of a frontier garrison in Egypt for the Achaemenid Empire. Established at Elephantine in about 650 BC during Manasseh's reign, these soldiers assisted Pharaoh Psammetichus I in his Nubian campaign. Their religious system shows strong traces of Babylonian polytheism, something which suggests to certain scholars that the community was of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins, and they maintained their own temple, functioning alongside that of the local deity Chnum. The documents cover the period 495 to 399 BC.
The Hebrew Bible also records that a large number of Jews took refuge in Egypt after the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah in 597 BC, and the subsequent assassination of the Jewish governor, Gedaliah. (2 Kings 25:22-24, Jeremiah 40:6-8) On hearing of the appointment, the Jews that had fled to Moab, Ammon, Edom and in other countries returned to Judah. (Jeremiah 40:11-12) However, before long Gedaliah was assassinated, and the population that was left in the land and those that had returned ran away to Egypt for safety. (2 Kings 25:26, Jeremiah 43:5-7) The numbers that made their way to Egypt is subject to debate. In Egypt, they settled in Migdol, Tahpanhes, Noph, and Pathros. (Jeremiah 44:1)
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Jul 6, 2010 21:52:22 GMT -5
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found nothing which can be directly related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and it has become increasingly clear that Iron Age Israel - the kingdoms of Judah and Israel - has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt: the culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.While some archaeologists leave open the possibility of a Semitic tribe coming from Egyptian servitude among the early hilltop settlers and that Moses or a Moses-like figure may have existed in Transjordan ca 1250-1200, they dismiss the possibility that the Exodus could have happened as described in the bible ____________________________________________ you think Exodus is completely made up? maybe then we have this piece later: In the Elephantine papyri, caches of legal documents and letters written in Aramaic amply document the lives of a community of Jewish soldiers stationed in there as part of a frontier garrison in Egypt for the Achaemenid Empire. Established at Elephantine in about 650 BC during Manasseh's reign, these soldiers assisted Pharaoh Psammetichus I in his Nubian campaign. Their religious system shows strong traces of Babylonian polytheism, something which suggests to certain scholars that the community was of mixed Judaeo-Samaritan origins, and they maintained their own temple, functioning alongside that of the local deity Chnum. The documents cover the period 495 to 399 BC. The Hebrew Bible also records that a large number of Jews took refuge in Egypt after the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah in 597 BC, and the subsequent assassination of the Jewish governor, Gedaliah. (2 Kings 25:22-24, Jeremiah 40:6-8) On hearing of the appointment, the Jews that had fled to Moab, Ammon, Edom and in other countries returned to Judah. (Jeremiah 40:11-12) However, before long Gedaliah was assassinated, and the population that was left in the land and those that had returned ran away to Egypt for safety. (2 Kings 25:26, Jeremiah 43:5-7) The numbers that made their way to Egypt is subject to debate. In Egypt, they settled in Migdol, Tahpanhes, Noph, and Pathros. (Jeremiah 44:1) Well according to Martin Bernal, the Hebrews may have filtered in with the Hyksos conquerers quote Apart from the general suggestion of a connection by the fact that the majority of the Hykosos were,like the later Isrealites,West Semetic speakers from Canaan,there are two specific reasons for supposing a more direct relationship.Firstly,there is the attestation in both Palestine and Lower Egypt of the name Yrkb hr or Yrkb as a Hyksos ruler in the late 18th century. This name is remarkably similar to Jabcob, Ya aqov. Jacob Isreal was not only the eponym and the specific ancestor of Isreal,he was also the Patriarch who,according to tradition led the Isrealites into Egypt. The first mention of Isreal in Kemetian recordsThe Merneptah Stele Text reads as follows: Year 5, 3rd month of summer, day 3, under the Majesty of Horus: Mighty Bull, Rejoicing in Maat; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Banere-meramun; the Son of Re: Merneptah, Content with Maat, magnified by the power, exalted by the strength of Horus; strong bull who smites the Nine Bows, whose name is given to eternity forever. Recital of his victories in all lands, to let all lands together know, to let the glory of his deeds be seen: the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Banere-meramun; the Son of Re: Merneptah, Content with Maat; the Bull, lord of strength who slays his foes, splendid on the field of valour when his attack is made: Shu who dispelled the cloud that was over Egypt, letting Egypt see the rays of the sun disk. Who removed the mountain of copper from the people's neck, that he might give breath to the imprisoned folk. Who let Hut-ka-Ptah exult over its foes, letting Tjenen triumph over his opponents. Opener of Memphis' gates that were barred, who allowed the temples to receive their foods. The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun, the Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat. The Sole One who steadied the hearts of hundred thousands, breath entered their nostrils at the sight of him. Who destroyed the land of the Tjemeh in his lifetime, cast abiding terror in the heart of the Meshwesh. He turned back the Libyans who trod Egypt, great is dread of Egypt in their hearts. Their leading troops were left behind, Their legs made no stand except to flee, Their archers abandoned their bows, The hearts of their runners grew weak as they sped, They loosened their waterskins, cast them down, Their packs were untied, thrown away. The vile chief, the Libyan foe, Fled in the deep of night alone, No plume on his head, his feet unshod, His wives were carried off from his presence, His food supplies were snatched away, He had no drinking water to sustain him. The gaze of his brothers was fierce to slay him, His officers fought among each other, Their tents were fired, burnt to ashes, All his goods were food for the troops. When he reached his country he was in mourning Those left in his land were loath to receive him "A chief, ill-fated, evil-plumed", All said of him, those of his town. "He is in the power of the gods, the lords of Memphis The Lord of Egypt has made his name accursed; Merey is the abomination of Memphis, So is son after son of his kin forever. Banere-meramun will be after his children, Merneptah, Content with Maat is given him as fate. He has become a [proverbial saying] for Libya, Generation says to generation of his victories: It was never done to us since the time of Re;" So says every old man speaking to his son. Woe to Libyans, they have ceased to live In the good manner of roaming the field; In a single day their stride was halted In a single year were the Tjehenu burned! Seth turned his back upon their chief, By his word their villages were ruined; There's no work of carrying [loads] these days. Hiding is useful, it's safe in the cave. The great Lord of Egypt, might and strength are his, Who will combat, knowing how he strides? A witless fool is he who takes him on, He knows no tomorrow who attacks his border! As for Egypt, "Since the gods," they say, "She is the only daughter of Pre; His son is he who's on the throne of Shu, None who attacks her people will succeed. The eye of every god is after her despoiler, It will make an end of all its foes", So say they who gaze toward their stars, And know all their spells by looking to the winds. A great wonder has occurred for Egypt, Her attacker was placed captive (in) her hand, Through the counsels of the godly king, Who prevailed against his foes before Pre. Merey who stealthily did evil To all the gods who are in Memphis, He was contended with in On, The Ennead found him guilty of his crimes. Said the Lord-of-all: "Give the sword to my son, The right-hearted, kind, gracious Banere-meramun, Who cared for Memphis, who avenged On, Who opened the quarters that were barred. He has freed the many shut up in all districts, He has given the offerings to the temples, He has let incense be brought to the gods, He has let the nobles retain their possessions, He has let the humble frequent their towns". Then spoke the lords of On in behalf of their son, Merneptah, Content with Maat: "Grant him a lifetime like that of Re, To avenge those injured by any land; Egypt has been assigned him as portion, He owns it forever to protect its people". Lo, when one dwells in the time of the mighty, The breath of life comes readily. The brave bestows wealth on the just, The cheat cannot retain his plunder; What a man has of ill-gotten wealth Falls to others, not (his) children. This (too) shall be said: Merey the vile foe, the Libyan foe Had come to attack the walls of Ta-tenen, Whose lord had made his son arise in his place, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun, Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat. Then said Ptah concerning the vile Libyan foe: "His crimes are all gathered upon his head. Give him into the hand of Merneptah, Content with Maat, He shall make him spew what he gorged like a crocodile. Lo, the swift will catch the swift, The lord who knows his strength will snare him; It is Amun who curbs him with his hand, He will deliver him to his ka in Southern On, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun, Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat". Great joy has arisen in Egypt, Shouts go up from Egypt's towns; They relate the Libyan victories Of Merneptah, Content with Maat: "How beloved is he, the victorious ruler! How exalted is he, the King among the gods! How splendid is he, the lord of command! O how sweet it is to sit and babble!" One walks free-striding on the road, For there's no fear in people's hearts; Fortresses are left to themselves, Wells are open for the messengers' use. Bastioned ramparts are becalmed, Sunlight only wakes the watchmen; Medjai are stretched out asleep, Nau and Tekten are in the fields they love. The cattle of the field are left to roam, No herdsmen cross the river's flood; There's no calling out at night: "Wait, I come," in a stranger's voice. Going and coming are with song, People don't [lament] and mourn; Towns are settled once again, He who tends his crop will eat it. Re has turned around to Egypt, The Son is ordained as her protector, The King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun, Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat. The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!" Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head: Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued. By the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun, Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat, Given life like Re every day. www.bible-history.com/archaeology/egypt/2-israel-stela-bb.html
|
|
|
Post by olehint on Jul 6, 2010 23:43:44 GMT -5
Each One, you are mentioning the Hyksos but Merneptah Stele is talking about the Libyans and then Israel at the end
Hyksos, 15th dyn,
Libyans 22nd dyn
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Jul 7, 2010 0:00:56 GMT -5
Each One, you are mentioning the Hyksos but Merneptah Stele is talking about the Libyans and then Israel at the end Hyksos, 15th dyn, Libyans 22nd dyn You mean Anansi..right.. Yes Martin Bernal amongst others seems to think that when the Hebrews or their ancestors first entered Kemet that's why he believed the name Yrkb the Hyksos ruler may very well be the Jacob of the Bible. And the the victory stale was the first on written record of the name Israel at a later time indeed. Remember the 17~18 dynasty was the liberation dynasties..and there aroused a King who knew not Josef, more likely Ahmose who did not recognize any Hyksos ruler..from then on a policy of preemptive strikes was made in that part of the world by the Kemites. So it was on going aggressions
|
|
|
Post by olehint on Jul 7, 2010 1:50:21 GMT -5
I notice now, the Merneptah Stele refers to wars against the Libyans a long time before their later rule in the 22nd and 23rd. At the end of the Stele they talk about the vanquished Tehenu- "Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued."
All of these are around Canaan, out of Africa but the Libyan Tehenu are in Africa. Are all these related people? Did they pass through Egypt to settle from the Middle East to Libya? How did they get there?
Also on a separate note, if there is a Hyksos connection to the Hebrews, not saying the plagues from god is true but what about but what about bondage of the Israelites and killing of the newborn Israelite boys? Could that part of Exodus be true?
|
|
|
Post by anansi on Jul 7, 2010 19:05:19 GMT -5
I notice now, the Merneptah Stele refers to wars against the Libyans a long time before their later rule in the 22nd and 23rd. At the end of the Stele they talk about the vanquished Tehenu- "Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued." All of these are around Canaan, out of Africa but the Libyan Tehenu are in Africa. Are all these related people? Did they pass through Egypt to settle from the Middle East to Libya? How did they get there? Also on a separate note, if there is a Hyksos connection to the Hebrews, not saying the plagues from god is true but what about but what about bondage of the Israelites and killing of the newborn Israelite boys? Could that part of Exodus be true? The Tehenu were always Africans but they were at odds with their Kemetic neighborers from the dawn of Kemetic history someone can correct me on this if I am wrong but I think they used to occupy parts of the delta before being over ran by upper Kemetian Kings during the period of unification under Scorpion and Narmer.
|
|
|
Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 7, 2010 21:39:22 GMT -5
I notice now, the Merneptah Stele refers to wars against the Libyans a long time before their later rule in the 22nd and 23rd. At the end of the Stele they talk about the vanquished Tehenu- "Khatti at peace, Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed, Khor is become a widow for Egypt. All who roamed have been subdued." All of these are around Canaan, out of Africa but the Libyan Tehenu are in Africa. Are all these related people? Did they pass through Egypt to settle from the Middle East to Libya? How did they get there? Also on a separate note, if there is a Hyksos connection to the Hebrews, not saying the plagues from god is true but what about but what about bondage of the Israelites and killing of the newborn Israelite boys? Could that part of Exodus be true? The Tehenu were always Africans but they were at odds with their Kemetic neighborers from the dawn of Kemetic history someone can correct me on this if I am wrong but I think they used to occupy parts of the delta before being over ran by upper Kemetian Kings during the period of unification under Scorpion and Narmer. I think you are right about this. I remember reading somewhere that the Lybians were actually an ethnic group whose territory included parts of Egypt. When Egypt was unified, they tried to bring them under Egyptian jurisdiction. Kind of like what's happening with the Kurds in Turkey. In anycase, I've seen depictions of Egyptian kings waging campains against them going back to the archaic period.
|
|
|
Post by olehint on Jul 30, 2010 3:54:15 GMT -5
Is the Exodus from Egypt of Hebrews a myth or is it just unknown but possible? I know this du who is a Hebrew Israelite. If the Exodus is a myth does that break down his whole frame work or can he still have a consistent belief in Judaism without that specific story?
|
|
|
Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 30, 2010 8:43:39 GMT -5
Is the Exodus from Egypt of Hebrews a myth or is it just unknown but possible? I know this du who is a Hebrew Israelite. If the Exodus is a myth does that break down his whole frame work or can he still have a consistent belief in Judaism without that specific story? Not for nothing, but the last place I'd go looking for accurate historical information would be to a Hebrew Isrealite. Our people came primarily from Central and West Africa, not ancient Palestine. Whenever you start mixing religion into the equation you're walking down a very slippery slope. Now what can real history tell us? Personally, not being a follower of any of the Abrahamic religions, I do not believe in the Bible as historical fact. I do think the purpose of the Bilble was not to get hung up on whether or not the stories were historical events, but the lessons they had to teach. Having said that though, I think that they are based on certain cultural and historical circumstances. Cannanites had been migrating into Egypt for a very long time. Its documented as far back as the Old Kingdom. It is documented fact that many people from Cannan did go to Egypt looking for employment and it is also documented that Amenhotep 2 imported 86,000 men from palestine and Syria who were used as farm hands and other such work including construction projects. So perhaps the people who became the Hebrews were at one time employed in Egypt under such circumstances. Did they part the sea and flee in masses, I don't believe in parting seas, but I do think that at some point some of these people were allowed to go back to their home of origin.
|
|
|
Post by truthteacher2007 on Jul 31, 2010 0:18:31 GMT -5
you're talking about two different things, people looking for employment and people taken as captives That's because Cannanites came into the country under a variety of circumstances during different time periods. Some came voluntarily looking for employment, some migrated in looking for grazing land for their flocks, some were enslaved as prisoners of war, some were enslaved under forced conscription for specific purposes. Nothing in life is ever one dimentional, cut & dry and simple. Complexity and variability are the factors that make up our reality in this life.
|
|
|
Post by olehint on Aug 1, 2010 3:08:32 GMT -5
you're talking about two different things, people looking for employment and people taken as captives That's because Cannanites came into the country under a variety of circumstances during different time periods. Some came voluntarily looking for employment, some migrated in looking for grazing land for their flocks, some were enslaved as prisoners of war, some were enslaved under forced conscription for specific purposes. Nothing in life is ever one dimentional, cut & dry and simple. Complexity and variability are the factors that make up our reality in this life. It seems like an enslavement and exodus of Hebrews was possible even though you can't find evidence outside the Bible to prove it. It seems like an essential story though, to me for the Hebrews. They big on that "let my people go" thang
|
|
|
Post by truthteacher2007 on Aug 1, 2010 11:17:30 GMT -5
That's because Cannanites came into the country under a variety of circumstances during different time periods. Some came voluntarily looking for employment, some migrated in looking for grazing land for their flocks, some were enslaved as prisoners of war, some were enslaved under forced conscription for specific purposes. Nothing in life is ever one dimentional, cut & dry and simple. Complexity and variability are the factors that make up our reality in this life. It seems like an enslavement and exodus of Hebrews was possible even though you can't find evidence outside the Bible to prove it. It seems like an essential story though, to me for the Hebrews. They big on that "let my people go" thang African Americans, Afro Latinos, Afro-Caribbean peoples are descended from the various peoples of West, Central and to a lesser extent South and South East Africa. Our ancestors were not Hebrews. We did not migrate into Africa from Palestine and we are not cursed. There is a very big difference between truth, reality and wishfull thinking. Was there some historical realities upon which the story of the Exedous is based on, yes. Did it happen exactly like it says in the Bible? Well if you believe in parting seas, burning bushes and food falling from the sky, then for you, it did. However, searching for evidence to back it up....... Regardless of who tjose people were, what there exact relationship with and experience in Egypt was, one thing is painfully clear, they wasn't us and all the wishfull thinking in the world will never make it so. If you want to find the real Hebrews, go to Israel/Palestine, they're still there. You want to check out the rural Palestinian villages and you want to check out people like the Samaritans who are still there and still speak their Aramaic language. Hebrew Isrealite theology was something that was invented right here in the United States i the century that we were all born in. However, if that way of life gives someone the power to live a positive self fullfilling life, who am I to throw stones? I've seen many positive aspects to their community, but their historical perspective, (the so called 12 tribes), is full of more holes than Swiss Cheese.
|
|
|
Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Aug 2, 2010 14:43:40 GMT -5
I can't imagine what Hebrew Israelite theology or the historical diaspora of Israels and Judeans into inner Africa and whether or not any of them made it to the USA has to do with Egyptology. But as far as extra-biblical references to the Hebrew/Israelite disconnect from Egypt, Egyptians have left us some records.
The Torah of Moshe extensively details laws of "leprosy." This was an affliction which in humans turns the skin pale and the hair white or yellow. Lepers who turned pale from head to foot could pass the trait on to their descendants and were not considered impure.
Manetho writes of two royal advisers [of Ramses II] suggesting the expulsion of a population of "lepers" and such from Egypt which we infer as the origins of the Judeans of Manetho's time. He writes that those to be cast out were led by a man named Osarsif from Heliopolis who changed his name to Moses demanding of the "impure" people stationed in Avaris that they slay roast and eat the sacred animals and cease worship of the gods. The then reigning pharaoh was supposed to have fought the impure people and their foreign allies to the point of pursuing those in retreat clear to the border of Syria.
Another Egyptian writer Cheremon tells a similar though even more confusing story as compared to the one in the Torah. He makes Joseph a conspirator alongside Moses! This author also tells of a character who, as a babe being born from a mother who concealed herself in a cave, grew up to deliver Egypt from the polluted ones.
Manetho gives these royal names in his version:
0) Ramses - father of Amenophis 1) Amenophis 2) Sethos Ramses - son of Amenophis
Cheremon mentions:
1) Amenophis 2) Messene - son of Amenophis
Torah tells us the Hebrews worked on the cities Pithom and Raamses. If so, the Exodus had to happen after there was a Ramses. Currently Egyptologists know of these successive 19th dynasty pharaohs. They fit Torah, Manetho and Cheremon:
1) 1307 -- Ramses I 2) 1306 -- Sethos I 3) 1290 -- Ramses II (as Manetho's Ramses) 4) 1224 -- Merneptah (as Manetho's and Cheremon's Amenophis) 5a) 1214 -- Sethos II (as Manetho's Sethos Ramses) 5b) 1214 -- Amenmesse co-regent w/Sethos II (as Cheremon's Messene)
Seeing Manetho and Cheremon possibly using Amenophis for Merneptah their sequence otherwise fits known history though the dates are skewed by 100 years from the Jewish reckoning of circa -1313 (i.e., 2448 AM) as the year of the Exodus.
Still, knowing Moshe was 80 at the Exodus and 80 years before Merneptah's reign gives -1304 to -1294 for the beginning years of repair work on Pithom and Raamses which allows the latter city to be named in honor of Ramses I.
|
|
|
Post by olehint on Aug 2, 2010 19:41:54 GMT -5
The Torah of Moshe extensively details laws of "leprosy." This was an affliction which in humans turns the skin pale and the hair white or yellow. Lepers who turned pale from head to foot could pass the trait on to their descendants and were not considered impure. Manetho writes of two royal advisers [of Ramses II] suggesting the expulsion of a population of "lepers" and such from Egypt which we infer as the origins of the Judeans of Manetho's time. He writes that those to be cast out were led by a man named Osarsif from Heliopolis who changed his name to Moses demanding of the "impure" people stationed in Avaris that they slay roast and eat the sacred animals and cease worship of the gods. The then reigning pharaoh was supposed to have fought the impure people and their foreign allies to the point of pursuing those in retreat clear to the border of Syria. The type of leprosy you point out would suggest the ancient Hebrews were white
|
|