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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 8, 2010 11:01:32 GMT -5
Anasi posted and asked: Question for Wally or anyone who can read Mdu Ntr What is the label on the Blacks far upper right-hand corner??
If you can give us more, like where you got it from, there may be more information useful in tracking down who's tomb it's from that'd help identifying. Just judging from the products they bring: * register 1 is Punt and surrounding Nehesi (Irem, Nem`i) * register 2 is Crete or some Kefti (islanders more so than Levantine * register 3 is Kush or Nehesi of their kingdom.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 8, 2010 11:18:24 GMT -5
Looks like it's from Tutmosis III's tomb. The repro is from George Alexander HoskinsTravels in Ethiopia above the 2nd cataractLondon: Longman (1835) Here's the front half of the painting
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Post by anansi on Apr 9, 2010 0:28:10 GMT -5
Anasi posted and asked: Question for Wally or anyone who can read Mdu Ntr What is the label on the Blacks far upper right-hand corner??
If you can give us more, like where you got it from, there may be more information useful in tracking down who's tomb it's from that'd help identifying. Just judging from the products they bring: * register 1 is Punt and surrounding Nehesi (Irem, Nem`i) * register 2 is Crete or some Kefti (islanders more so than Levantine * register 3 is Kush or Nehesi of their kingdom. I got it from Jeri..I was curious because they seems to be dressed not in kalasiris, leopard or Panther skins. so I was wondering if they were Nehesi dressed as levantines or locals.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 10, 2010 7:52:24 GMT -5
Anansi, I think you are relying on Minutoli's representation, which tries to claim that Egyptians only recognized 4 distinct races, with the 'Black" ones labeled Nehesu, which is false. The AE didn't see in terms of race, but rather ethnic groups, and there were MORE than one distinctive "Black" ethnic group, even if they were dressed the same or differently in the various reliefs. If you would review Takruri's post on the Herd of Ra, you will notice separate labels for the various depictions of "Black" men. In other words there could be members of the same ethnic group with 'different skin complexions' as well as members with the same 'skin complexion' in different ethnic groups, if this makes sense. Try to think in terms of dark-skinned and light-skinned Nubians, as posted below. The top is a reproduction of a Nubian procession, the bottom is from the actual tomb, notice the different skin complexions, although belonging to the same ethnic group. AE didn't see in terms of race. Reproduction Actual tomb Photos courtest of wysinger.homestead.comI also want to add, that because I don't attempt to interpret hieroglyphs, personally I simply look at the trades being made to determine where the various groups may originate from. i.e. when I see gold and wild animal skins being offered, you can reasonably assume that groups are coming from the 'south'. In the above photo posted by Takruri, I notice a few goats and cattle, but also Ivory, monkeys, and wild animals, and what appears to be frankicense, and various pottery. So it appears like various groups trading from several different locations.
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jari
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Post by jari on Apr 10, 2010 12:30:42 GMT -5
Anasi posted and asked: Question for Wally or anyone who can read Mdu Ntr What is the label on the Blacks far upper right-hand corner??
If you can give us more, like where you got it from, there may be more information useful in tracking down who's tomb it's from that'd help identifying. Just judging from the products they bring: * register 1 is Punt and surrounding Nehesi (Irem, Nem`i) * register 2 is Crete or some Kefti (islanders more so than Levantine * register 3 is Kush or Nehesi of their kingdom. I got it from Jeri..I was curious because they seems to be dressed not in kalasiris, leopard or Panther skins. so I was wondering if they were Nehesi dressed as levantines or locals. Sorry about the delay in posting, yes I was the 1st to post this thread and my research led me to the images being a representation of the tomb of Rekemhire.. While it may be non-royal, the tomb of Rekhmire (TT 100) is one of the most interesting on the West Bank at Luxor (ancient Thebes). Located on the southeastern slope of the Sheikh Abd el-Qurna hill, it is one of the largest of the private tombs. Rekhmire was a vizier, the highest ranking official under the pharaohs Tuthmosis III and Amenophis II during a period when Egypt's empire stretched to its farthest extent and was at the peek of her prosperity. We find that his great grandfather and grandfather also were also viziers. He was responsible for the area of Egypt extending from Aswan north to Assiut. In addition, he was also the mayor of Thebes and the Steward of the Temple of Amun at the Karnak Complex. The explanation of his duties as a vizier found within his tomb is one of the most important administrative texts of the New Kingdom. Except for a brief mention on an ostracon and papyrus, all that we know of Rekhmire comes from his tomb. The tomb was entered at lest twice within a hundred years of Rekhmire's burial by robbers, who carried off most of its content. The first westerner to explore the tomb was Frederic Caillaud, a Frenchman who copied some of its scenes of daily life between 1819 and 1822. There color paintings were published in 1831. The importance of the tomb is evidenced by a stream of later travelers, including Sir Gardiner Wilkinson (1825), Champollion and Rossellini (1828), Bonomi (1832) and Hoskins (1832). Like most private tombs, Rekhmire's is fairly simple, consisting of a courtyard leading into a vestibule that is 20 meters in length (66 feet) and then a long chapel that is 25 meters in length (82 feet). The chapel is certainly the most interesting part of the tomb, with a ceiling that is three meters (10 feet) at its entrance but rises to eight meters (27 feet) at its rear. It therefore provides some 300 square meters of space for the fine decorative program. Interestingly, there is no ritual shaft to be found in the tomb, leading archaeologists to believe that Rekhmire was never buried in this tomb, but rather in a yet unknown tomb in the Valley of the Kings. The decorative program begins in the vestibule with an archaic style similar to Middle Kingdom tombs, and extends into the chapel where the work is exceptional. Multiple themes deal with common elements found in tombs, including the Opening of the Mouth ritual and the Beautiful Feast of the Valley festival, but also include absolutely unique scenes, giving us a complete and detailed account of many aspects of daily life. These paintings also have a high state of preservation with good color. Upon entering the vestibule, the wall to the left (southwestern) we find in five registers scenes depicting the products of Upper Egypt, including text describing the goods. On the next wall (western) is found autobiographical text, describing his duties as a vizier and providing us with one hundred of his other titles. Then on the northwestern wall there are scenes depicting the tributes paid to Egypt by foreign countries. The tributes are divided into five groups of items, which are then recorded by scribes. These groups include:
* The people of Punt who bring incense trees, baboons, monkeys and animal hides. * The people of Kefti (probably Crete), carrying pots and cubs. * The Kushites (Nubians) who bring animals of equatorial Africa (giraffes, leopards, baboons, monkeys and dogs), offering ivory, animal hides and gold. * The Retenus or Syrians, who bring pots, carts and weapons, along with various animals (horses, a bear and an elephant). * The fifth group consists of people from various lands.
On the eastern side of the southern wall, we find Rekhmire, who's image is lost, inspecting tributes from Lower Egypt, along with the workshops of the craftsmen working in the temples. On the eastern wall are scenes depicting several of Rekhmire's relatives, while on the eastern side of the northern wall we find products coming from the Egypt's Mediterranean coast, along with scenes of winemaking, fishing and hunting.
While the quality of work in the Chapel is outstanding, regrettably, the ceiling is so high that it is difficult for tourists to see the decorations on the upper part of the chamber at its rear. Entering the Chapel, we find on the western wall six registers with scenes of Rekhmire supervising the gathering and preparation of food stuffs allotted to the temple. Next, there are eight registers with scenes representing the types of labor carried out by craftsmen who worked for Amun's temple. These include potters, carpenters, decorators, goldsmiths, sculptors and masons.
Next, there is a series of ten registers. These show the actual funeral procession heading for the necropolis, the installation of obelisks, nine of Rekhmire's friends hauling the catafalque, a pilgrimage to Abydos, the cleansing of the deceased and a dance scene with the ritual slaughter of animals.
The back wall of the chapel has a niche high above the floor which once held a stele, now to be found in the Louvre Museum. Below the niche is a false door. This decorative element that dates back to the Old Kingdom symbolically leads to the Afterworld. There is also a scene of Rekhmire bowing before Osiris while his son, Menkeperreseneb, gives his father and Merit, his mother, offerings. Texts provides the formulas of the offerings.
On the long, eastern wall of the chapel we first find paintings of three of Rekhmire's sons, including Menkeperreseneb, Amenophis and Senusert, in the presence of Rekhmire and Merit. Next are ten registers which sown rites carried out in front of a statue of Rekhmire, including the ritual slaughter of animals, the cleansing of the deceased, preparation of food.
Next comes a wonderful painting, in ten registers, showing the funeral banquet. This is probably the best artistic work in the tomb. Here, both male and female musicians wear bright clothes and play diverse instruments including lutes, tambourines, flutes, harps and castanets. The guests sit on mats while they are served their meal. We also see the deceased's sons and daughters offering wreaths of flowers to Rekhmire and his wife.
The last scenes on the eastern wall portray Rekhmire taking a boat journey in order to receive a high decoration from the Pharaoh, Amenophis II. Again, we also find his son presenting him with flowers, along with dignitaries and petitioners being granted an audience with Rekhmire as a vizier.
Again, this is one of the finest private tombs on the West Bank at Luxor, and the artwork throughout the tomb highlights the extraordinary talent of the craftsmen and artists who who built it.
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jari
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Post by jari on Apr 10, 2010 12:38:32 GMT -5
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/rekhmire.htmNow from the reading they label the 5th group which I am guessing are These Folks here They label them as people from "Various Lands" which leads me to think that either 1) The Egyptologists who provided the information on the link have no idea who any of the people are and are guessing by the good they are bringing.(like us) or 2) The Egyptologists do not know the name of the folks in the 5th group unless there is a glyph for "Various Nations" in Mdr Ntr...
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jari
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Post by jari on Apr 10, 2010 12:44:29 GMT -5
Anansi, I think you are relying on Minutoli's representation, which tries to claim that Egyptians only recognized 4 distinct races, with the 'Black" ones labeled Nehesu, which is false. The AE didn't see in terms of race, but rather ethnic groups, and there were MORE than one distinctive "Black" ethnic group, even if they were dressed the same or differently in the various reliefs. If you would review Takruri's post on the Herd of Ra, you will notice separate labels for the various depictions of "Black" men. In other words there could be members of the same ethnic group with 'different skin complexions' as well as members with the same 'skin complexion' in different ethnic groups, if this makes sense. Try to think in terms of dark-skinned and light-skinned Nubians, as posted below. The top is a reproduction of a Nubian procession, the bottom is from the actual tomb, notice the different skin complexions, although belonging to the same ethnic group. AE didn't see in terms of race. Reproduction Actual tomb Photos courtest of wysinger.homestead.comI also want to add, that because I don't attempt to interpret hieroglyphs, personally I simply look at the trades being made to determine where the various groups may originate from. i.e. when I see gold and wild animal skins being offered, you can reasonably assume that groups are coming from the 'south'. In the above photo posted by Takruri, I notice a few goats and cattle, but also Ivory, monkeys, and wild animals, and what appears to be frankicense, and various pottery. So it appears like various groups trading from several different locations. Well the Tomb of Rekhmire is still in its original state and the images I have on my tread seem to pretty accurate www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002571;p=1#000000Reproduction original Now its not 100 percent but at least the repro. does note Reddish Brown and Dark Brown(although black in the repro.) Kushites...The Original th Kushites are not Dark black But more Brown and even some Yellowish Brown folks in there.
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jari
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Post by jari on Apr 10, 2010 13:07:49 GMT -5
More Images from the tomb of Rekhmire... On 2nd look, a closer look shows that the "Yellowish Color" is actually a faded version of the original and they were originally dark black More /
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Post by homeylu on Apr 10, 2010 13:14:54 GMT -5
Jari, thanks for providing the accompanying text to the relief.
I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I was not questioning the reproduction that you provided, but rather a reproduction of another relief by Minutoli who used a photo of 4 distinct groups and tried to insinuate that Egyptians divided mankind into 4 distinct races, which is false. I don't even have this repro in my possession to post it. But I recall that Nehesu was supposed to be a distinctive race. But this is incorrect. As you have provided evidence showing that just because individuals were portrayed with different 'complexions' didn't mean they belonged to different races.
"On the eastern wall are scenes depicting several of Rekhmire's relatives" which I assume are the group with the children but not carrying any goods.
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jari
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Post by jari on Apr 10, 2010 14:22:17 GMT -5
Jari, thanks for providing the accompanying text to the relief. I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I was not questioning the reproduction that you provided, but rather a reproduction of another relief by Minutoli who used a photo of 4 distinct groups and tried to insinuate that Egyptians divided mankind into 4 distinct races, which is false. I don't even have this repro in my possession to post it. But I recall that Nehesu was supposed to be a distinctive race. But this is incorrect. As you have provided evidence showing that just because individuals were portrayed with different 'complexions' didn't mean they belonged to different races. "On the eastern wall are scenes depicting several of Rekhmire's relatives" which I assume are the group with the children but not carrying any goods. Oh no I understand exactly, I meant not to come at you but to show that the Reprint I found was pretty accurate compared to others from other tombs. However even the one I have seems to be a little off compared to the original. Also the pics you provided are good and you do bring up a good point, that Europeans seem to remake the original tomb work to fit their ideals that the Egyptians did not have.
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Post by anansi on Apr 10, 2010 15:13:06 GMT -5
Anansi, I think you are relying on Minutoli's representation, which tries to claim that Egyptians only recognized 4 distinct races, with the 'Black" ones labeled Nehesu, which is false. The AE didn't see in terms of race, but rather ethnic groups, and there were MORE than one distinctive "Black" ethnic group, even if they were dressed the same or differently in the various reliefs. If you would review Takruri's post on the Herd of Ra, you will notice separate labels for the various depictions of "Black" men. In other words there could be members of the same ethnic group with 'different skin complexions' as well as members with the same 'skin complexion' in different ethnic groups, if this makes sense. Try to think in terms of dark-skinned and light-skinned Nubians, as posted below. The top is a reproduction of a Nubian procession, the bottom is from the actual tomb, notice the different skin complexions, although belonging to the same ethnic group. AE didn't see in terms of race. Reproduction Actual tomb Photos courtest of wysinger.homestead.comI also want to add, that because I don't attempt to interpret hieroglyphs, personally I simply look at the trades being made to determine where the various groups may originate from. i.e. when I see gold and wild animal skins being offered, you can reasonably assume that groups are coming from the 'south'. In the above photo posted by Takruri, I notice a few goats and cattle, but also Ivory, monkeys, and wild animals, and what appears to be frankicense, and various pottery. So it appears like various groups trading from several different locations. OH NO!!! don't get me wrong I did not say or meant to say that it was a profile of races...I was just wondering about the extremely dark-skinned folks wearing non Kalasairi or leopard skinned dress..for those guys kilts looked to be Levantine or Minoan...I was just going by the dress only.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 11, 2010 1:29:57 GMT -5
^^ I apologize Anansi, I assumed you were inquiring if they were Nehesu simply because they were "Black", I see now that I was mistaken.
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 18, 2010 20:13:38 GMT -5
Does anybody have any information in regard to the origins of the Minoans. From just looking at the art work they appear to be of partial African ancestry. I read somewhere that they show some linakge to Antolia...but , nothing other then that.
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Post by anansi on Apr 18, 2010 23:36:21 GMT -5
Does anybody have any information in regard to the origins of the Minoans. From just looking at the art work they appear to be partial African ancestry. I read somewhere that they show some linakge to Antolia...but , nothing other then that. From what little I have read they are of Anatolian extraction but with a heavy dose of African input. the following was taken from a book Black Spark White Fire. Some scholars have speculated that just such a migration might have taken place during Egypt's early years. Sir Authur Evans pointed to the communication with the Nile valley as the determining cause of Crete's earl advancement. Evans theorized that Crete had been colonized by Libyan refugees expelled from Egypt at the start of the 3rd dynasty (around 2700-2600 B.C) as the Pharoahs consolidated their hold over the Delta. There is considerable archeological evidence that new people arrived in Crete around this time-people whose culture resembled Libyans. Other scholars have speculated that Crete might have been settled by an earlier generation of refugees-Lower Egyptians fleeing before Menes conquering army. These lower egyptians may have brought with them the distinctive "figure eight" sheild of the goddess Neit,which subsequently became an important symbol of the Minoans Neit-the goddess whom Martin Bernal called Black Athena-had her cult center in northern Egyptian city of Sais. It is to this Goddess that Danaos and his daughters erected a temple on the Island of Rhodes,according Greek legend. Whether the alleged colonization took place during Menes's reign or some 4 or 5 centuries later, as Evans believed, it seems clear that people was migrating out of Egypt at an early date. The names Minos and Menes seem closely related. Herodotus calles King Menes "Min," and Minos is nothing more than Min with the Greek masculine ending os affixed to it. Many scholars believe that Minos was a royal title in Crete,applied to every king. Similarly,more than one of Egypt's early rulers bore the title Mn. Archeologist agree that the Greek Island do seem to have come under foreign attack during the period between 2800 and 2200 B.C Some experts link this development to Thukydides account of Minoan colonization.an even more remarkable transformation occured on the mainland,however It was percisely during this period that a mysterious new people appeared in Greece a civilization of master builders and expert seafarers whose surviving monuments include enormous,pyramid-like burial mounds. The Greeks called these people Minyai-Minyans. The ''Pyramid'' of HellenikonAt the South-eastern edge of the plain of Argolid, near the springs of the Erasinos river (nowadays 'Kephalari') and on the main arterial road which in antiquity lead from Argos to Tegea and the rest of Arcadia and Kynouria, there is a small fort at present known as the 'pyramid' of Hellenikon. According to evidence from the excavations and the typical features of the structure which dates to the end of the 4th century B.C. and not to the prehistoric period, as some scientists have been recently willing to demonstrate. During the later years of Antiquity, the ''Pyramid'' was considered as a burial monument , a ''polyandreion'', while nowadays there is no doubt that it was a fort of the type of small strong-holds which controlled the arterial roads and which are known from other regions of the Argolid. "Minoan captian of the Blacks"
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Post by doctorisscientia on Apr 19, 2010 17:43:29 GMT -5
Thank you for the information.
So is it accurate enough to discuss the Minoan civilization in a different light then lets say the Mycenaean and Classical Greece. In that they shouldn't be simply lumped into a category with later periods of civilization in geographic Greece, since not only have they been proven to be of none Greek extration, they don't show any continuation in which the Mycenaeans showed with Classical Greece.
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