jari
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Post by jari on Apr 12, 2010 12:20:08 GMT -5
To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruiful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important tot he Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was. The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet pp. 21-22 In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy. General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa p. 427 www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002609 |
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jari
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Posts: 289
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Post by jari on Apr 12, 2010 12:20:49 GMT -5
Bertholon and Chantre (1913)noted non- Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating. Daniels (1970) reported that pre- and post-Roman Gara- mantian remains from southern Libya were Mediterranean. Negroid. and hybrid.
A study
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jari
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Posts: 289
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Post by jari on Apr 12, 2010 12:22:18 GMT -5
Hmm, Well we know Carthage had many Semitic speakers, the Phonecians, but it was a city built on African soil, there was also a heavy mixed population, which the Greeks themselves called Liby-Phonecians. Roman historian Diodorus Siculus nevertheless mentions 4 different 'races' to make up Carthage- Phonecians, native North Africans, so-called Libyans, who made up the bulk of the populations and provided the hardcore heavy infantry, the mixed Liby-Phonecians, and then the nomadic Numidians who provided superb light cavalry forces.  Numidian horseman- artist conception by war gamer on wildfiregames.com Historian Gregory Daly in his 2002 (Cannae: the experience of battle in the Second Punic War, pg 92) calls the Numidians "of Berber stock, possbily with some Negro admixture." Berbers though are a language category not a racial one and Berbers have always included a range of types including "Negroes". Nevertheless at least Daly seems to partially recognize that these ancient fighting men were a diverse lot: ""whenever Polybius mentions Libyans he specifically means the native subjects of Carthage, rather than the Numidians and Moors to the west of the city (Law, 1978, p.129). These groups, nowadays described as Libyco-Berbers (Desanges, 1981, p. 428), appear to have been essentially the same ethnic background- Berber stock, possibly with some Negro admixture.." pg 85, 92 As noted on a few older ES threads, remains deemed to be "Negroid" are not uncommon on Carthagian burial grounds, and so-called "Negroid" variant is only one of a variety of 'black African' variants. Elongated Africans are another. Short, light-skinned San are yet another. quotes: ----------------------------- Keita in his important 1990, Studies of ancient crania in Norther Africa notes: "Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In
various writers’ physical descriptions of
the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition
to the presence of fair-skinned blonds,
various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian”
groups are described, near the coast and on
the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.
“Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples
usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly)
hair, are noted in various Greek accounts
and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux
(1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan”
population affinities in living
Maghrebans as being solely the result of the
medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is
clear that this is not the case. Furthermore,
the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently
not foreign or a caste."
"Pittard (1924) notes with surprise the race of the
remains found in the Sarcophagus of the Priestess of’
Tanit in Carthage, noting them to be Negroid
(see also Bertholon and Chantre, 1913)." |
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jari
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Posts: 289
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Post by jari on Apr 12, 2010 12:24:59 GMT -5
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Post by sttigray on Jul 22, 2010 16:12:53 GMT -5
Interesting
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Post by sttigray on Aug 11, 2010 16:37:17 GMT -5
I think you are right, I rephrase my Question.
How connected are Dravidians to Africa.
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Post by Son of Ra on Nov 14, 2013 23:00:38 GMT -5
Bump...
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Post by anansi on Nov 15, 2013 14:10:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump the real Jewel is in the link above which I had not checked out till now sorry Jari..  THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS
IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND
OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902A lot of goodies here folks. |
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Post by Son of Ra on Nov 15, 2013 18:52:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump the real Jewel is in the link above which I had not checked out till now sorry Jari.. THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS
IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND
OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902A lot of goodies here folks. Holy crap! Thanks! Will post this on my Carthage thread on Egyptsearch. Check it out! |
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Post by azrur on Nov 16, 2013 20:43:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump the real Jewel is in the link above which I had not checked out till now sorry Jari.. THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS
IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND
OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902A lot of goodies here folks. would punic not already be of africa since they are from carthage city in north africa |
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Post by azrur on Nov 16, 2013 20:46:15 GMT -5
"As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans: "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance." this is wikipedia quote from the book G. Mokhtar. General History of Africa: Ancient Civilizations of Africa, p. 427.
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Post by anansi on Nov 16, 2013 21:57:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the bump the real Jewel is in the link above which I had not checked out till now sorry Jari.. THE PRESENCE OF AFRICAN INDIVIDUALS
IN PUNIC POPULATIONS FROM THE ISLAND
OF IBIZA (SPAIN): CONTRIBUTIONS FROM
PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY www.raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/viewFile/122749/169902A lot of goodies here folks. would punic not already be of africa since they are from carthage city in north africa In this case they are speaking of a colony in Spain not Africa itself. |
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Post by ambani on Aug 12, 2016 6:59:43 GMT -5
Woow, that's really interesting!!!
Quotes on Carthaginians, i never really knew things like this existed long back then!!
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Post by anansi on Aug 14, 2016 18:34:04 GMT -5
Woow, that's really interesting!!! Quotes on Carthaginians, i never really knew things like this existed long back then!! Lots of info to wade through take your time, and btw welcome to ESR. |
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