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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 14, 2012 16:54:00 GMT -5
Most Amazigh are black. I would be interested to hear them speak (if it is in Arabic, as I know that language) to hear the language they are using how they are referring to different groups. I have a feeling this is less about color (as most amazigh are black) and more about ethnicity. Generally western sources have a way of translating things to give it a racial spin when there isn't one. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 14, 2012 18:01:01 GMT -5
If anything is western it's the idea the Imazighen are black, an idea
held by USA black westerners who employ that county's "one drop"
measure on people not in the USA.
The vast majority of Imazighen are by no means black and the old
tarikhs and other medieval to pre-colonial era Arabic writings of
West Africa class both Berbers and Arabs as white though this
should not be confused with classifying them as Europeans.
Even the Tuareg who have seven colour terms for peoples do
not internally class themselves black. Neither do they class
themselves white. They do however class the Kabyles and
others along the Mediterranean coastal towns as white.
In general Tuareg classify themselves as yellow and some as green.
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Post by mendeman on Jun 14, 2012 22:13:22 GMT -5
My brother, my name indicates, I am African, my family is from Southern Sierra Leone. So the "black westerners" doesn't apply.
Africans brought slaves into North Africa, and by Africans I mean Blacks, the original people from the continent. The slaves were European and this slave trade started around 700 A.D. or so when Africans pushed into Spain. There is a book titled "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500-1800 (Early Modern History)" by Roger C. Davis you should read. The time period covered in this book is relatively late as the slave trade of whites into Africa started in 700s as mentioned before. Actually, this is wrong. It actually started in the IV dynasty of the Kemetic empire, then again under Carthage and then again with the Moors. Anyway, he shows that in that time frame of 1500 to 1800 over a million whites were brought into North Africa. Many of these whites were women, who were used as concubines. White men were brought in as well, for slave labor, but from my understanding the majority were women. This is what changed the face of North Africa. So, if some person on some forum that you frequent talks about how they are the original Berbers or you quoting from al tarikhaha (plural), which were written after the fact, means absolutely nothing. We must know history before attempting to debate and speak with such assertiveness.
As for modern day Berber, I suggest you go visit North Africa. The northern halves of these countries have a compellation of white, mixed and then black people. As you hit the middle portions of these countries, the people get markedly darker and in the south they turn to being black, that’s a fact. You want to see what common Berber look like, just go Google Siwa Egypt, this is the common Berber, the rest are just mutts, who either do not want to admit who they are (the descendants of slaves) or they no longer remember. This situation is similar to the identity crisis we find in Northern Egypt today. They do not know or remember their origin, i.e. they are the result of slaves as well as invaders mixing with the indigenous black people. If you want to claim to be a Berber, that is fine, but to do that you must embrace your African heritage, other wise its just a fallacy.
To further hammer my point home listen to what Keita has to say here
While I do not always agree with Keita's explanations for things, this video is pretty good. As to my issues with his explanations it has to do with his lack of thorough knowledge of Africa in explaining things, however he seems to be getting better, per this video. But to be fair, why should he be well versed in African history, he isn't a historian. I would like to see him team up with a historian with a lot of his work. I think his findings would find new light that way. This is one of the first times in a video I have seen from him start to explain some of the reasons for these white and lighter skinned people in North Africa and West Africa for that matter, given historical facts.
Again we must know history before speaking. Many of the people in coastal towns are white, however Berbers do not magically disappear when you leave the coastal towns so this doesn't mean anything in terms of our conversation. But the question is, what is the history of the people in these coastal towns? You need to do more research brother. As for Toureg, now this is going to take you understanding Africa. We are not on Mars, there are no Green people walking around on earth, so what may this means? You need to start to research Africans, their esoteric thinking and symbolisms. You are interpreting Africans from a westernized ideology, and attempting to shoe horn African thinking to your western thinking and that doesn't work. Africans are not western nor do we think like westerners. As I said, Berbers for the most part are black, there are whites and there are mixed ones, however, the roots of these people are in the black people of Africa. If the white ex slave wants to call himself a white, then why not, he is. But if he wants to claim North Africa as his ancestral homeland, well, I don’t think so. He can either embrace his African (black) heritage or he needs to go back to Europe were my fathers dragged him from kicking and screaming.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 15, 2012 4:48:52 GMT -5
Population: raw and percentages   The Amazigh of today are an overwhelmingly non-black people. Pro Black Ideology will not not change that fact. 27 out of the 32 million "Berbers" are Atlas to coastal Moroccans and Algerians. Algerian Kabyl dominate the multi-ethnic Amazigh activists. The Amazigh movement is virulently anti-black. Their members claim to be nothing other than African, in their words "indigenous white Africans." They project this whiteness into the pre-historic past even though North Africa was mostly black with dispersed notice of a few non-blacks here and there until the European age of exploration They neither identify with Africa's blacks nor seek alliances with them. Anyone with a "Berber" parent, aunt, or uncle knows this. Anyone with actual experience with Amazigh activists knows this. Anyone familiar with Amazigh internet forums and websites knows this. I am speaking from direct relation and personal experience with Amazigh activist from Morocco and Algeria. Moroccans and Algerians not alligned with the Amazigh activist movement are not virulently anti-black but they do not identify as black and indeed their average physical types are virtually non-existant from ~15° north and on down to Cape Alguhas. Do you remember the Amazigh protests against the movie The Gladiator led by the World Amazigh Action Coalition against Djimon Hounsou cast as a leader of Numidian archers because Hounsou is a black? Even population genetics reports authored by North Africans postulate the myth of an indigenous white North Africa throughout all time. They simply discount or ignore all black confirmative data whether genetic, archaeological, or from Greco-Latin and Arabic written histories. Neither on the continent nor at the universities or migrant settlements in the west do Imazighen en masse identify with or travel in the same social circles as the blacks of Africa (eg., Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo- Saharan speakers as well as the black Afrisan speakers like the Chadics, Cushitics, and Ethio-Semitics). Nor do Imazighen participate as blacks in forums on the internet. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 15, 2012 5:33:52 GMT -5
As for Toureg, now this is going to take you understanding Africa. We are not on Mars, there are no Green people walking around on earth, so what may this means? You need to start to research Africans, their esoteric thinking and symbolisms. You are interpreting Africans from a westernized ideology, and attempting to shoe horn African thinking to your western thinking and that doesn't work. That you do not know who the green man is, and your identifying him with Martians, shows your western ideological frame of reference and unfamiliarity with colour nomenclature of Twareg, Sudanis, and Arabs among other peoples of Africa. And in this you are not arguing with me but against what the Twareg themselves say their own colour is. They say they are yellow with some few among them green. Since you don't know what Africans mean by a green man you should simply ask without promoting your western nonsense about literally green skinned people or western notions of Mars inhabited by little green men. Your concept of the green man is way out of touch with Sahel zone African "esoteric thinking and symbolism." You have made this personal, talking about me, what I need to do, and where I should go visit. You don't know me or where I've been or who I am related to or what organizations I belong to or my range of studies. What you need to do is remain rational and stop drawing conclusions about me and what I need to study and research and stick to objective analysis of the subject. If you can't do that then I have nothing more to say. |
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Post by mendeman on Jun 15, 2012 5:55:48 GMT -5
*shrugs* oh, ok.
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Post by anansi on Jun 16, 2012 3:56:49 GMT -5
During the Libyan uprising weren't the visibly darker skinned Taurages ie black Libyans being singled out for summery executions along side non Libyan migrants form other African countries combatants or not, because they were looked upon as blacks by the lighter hued coastals??..if so how could they jell that with a self image as being non black.
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Post by mendeman on Jun 16, 2012 9:53:25 GMT -5
During the Libyan uprising weren't the visibly darker skinned Taurages ie black Libyans being singled out for summery executions along side non Libyan migrants form other African countries combatants or not, because they were looked upon as blacks by the lighter hued coastals??..if so how could they jell that with a self image as being non black. This jogged my memory. I saw some videos I think are relevant: And Listen to the second one all the way through. Those percentages hold true for all of north Africa. There are wholly black Berber cities in northern Libya as well. One of them is well known though the name escapes me. Also in Algeria they have a amazigh festival every year, and most of them are black or mixed. I will post videos when I get a chance. I also have many Libyan friends from my masjid. The ones I know are black of varying degrees. |
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 18, 2012 23:53:15 GMT -5
During the Libyan uprising weren't the visibly darker skinned Taurages ie black Libyans being singled out for summery executions
along side non Libyan migrants form other African countries combatants or not, because they were looked upon as blacks by the
lighter hued coastals??..if so how could they jell that with a self image as being non black. The question has it's answer buried within. (BTW, most of the black native Libyans are not Tuareg.) Lighter hued coastals look upon most non-Libyan Twareg recruited by Qadhafi as blacks. 1300 miles away, darker hued Maliens class them as white. Meanwhile they use yellow as their self-determined colour and label coastals white while classing most Maliens grey. What makes the coastals colour call accurate and correct and that of Maliens or the Kel Tamasheq themselves wrong? Since the conflict is Maliens versus Kel Ifoghas I trust their word over coastals or anybody else. It goes back to the days of the Songhai and Mali empires. This is what, in a major way, drives the Kel Ifoghas vs Malien discord. Long before there was a western science of physical anthropology and its classification of race the people of this region of Africa developed their own racial concepts and couldn't care less what outsiders say. Since race is a social construct the race of any one breeding population will vary pending which society view is considered. Sometimes many societies' views converge on the racial identity of a breeding population and, as in this case, there are times different societies' opinions do not at all agree. The Kel Ifogrhas (main branch of Kel Tamasheq in Mali) view themselves as composed of three races corresponding to their class structure i.e., red, green, and black approximate noble, vassal, and slave. But all reds aren't nobles nor are all blacks slaves. Also, there are green nobles and green slaves. |
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Post by azrur on Nov 2, 2013 1:50:08 GMT -5
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Post by azrur on Nov 2, 2013 1:51:48 GMT -5
your fathers were in north africa taking european slaves? how did you a sierra leone man have fathers be north african slavers?
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Post by azrur on Nov 2, 2013 2:02:32 GMT -5
you are taking information from al jazeera? they are liars and propaganda that call kabyle and mnla jihadists
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Post by azrur on Nov 2, 2013 2:14:12 GMT -5
Population: raw and percentages The Amazigh of today are an overwhelmingly non-black people. Pro Black Ideology will not not change that fact. 27 out of the 32 million "Berbers" are Atlas to coastal Moroccans and Algerians. Algerian Kabyl dominate the multi-ethnic Amazigh activists. The Amazigh movement is virulently anti-black. Their members claim to be nothing other than African, in their words "indigenous white Africans." They project this whiteness into the pre-historic past even though North Africa was mostly black with dispersed notice of a few non-blacks here and there until the European age of exploration They neither identify with Africa's blacks nor seek alliances with them. Anyone with a "Berber" parent, aunt, or uncle knows this. Anyone with actual experience with Amazigh activists knows this. Anyone familiar with Amazigh internet forums and websites knows this. I am speaking from direct relation and personal experience with Amazigh activist from Morocco and Algeria. Moroccans and Algerians not alligned with the Amazigh activist movement are not virulently anti-black but they do not identify as black and indeed their average physical types are virtually non-existant from ~15° north and on down to Cape Alguhas. Do you remember the Amazigh protests against the movie The Gladiator led by the World Amazigh Action Coalition against Djimon Hounsou cast as a leader of Numidian archers because Hounsou is a black? Even population genetics reports authored by North Africans postulate the myth of an indigenous white North Africa throughout all time. They simply discount or ignore all black confirmative data whether genetic, archaeological, or from Greco-Latin and Arabic written histories. Neither on the continent nor at the universities or migrant settlements in the west do Imazighen en masse identify with or travel in the same social circles as the blacks of Africa (eg., Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo- Saharan speakers as well as the black Afrisan speakers like the Chadics, Cushitics, and Ethio-Semitics). Nor do Imazighen participate as blacks in forums on the internet. why would they not when as you can see they are called mutts and ex slaves? |
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Post by justcallmejari on Nov 2, 2013 6:23:04 GMT -5
During the Libyan uprising weren't the visibly darker skinned Taurages ie black Libyans being singled out for summery executions
along side non Libyan migrants form other African countries combatants or not, because they were looked upon as blacks by the
lighter hued coastals??..if so how could they jell that with a self image as being non black. The question has it's answer buried within. (BTW, most of the black native Libyans are not Tuareg.) Lighter hued coastals look upon most non-Libyan Twareg recruited by Qadhafi as blacks. 1300 miles away, darker hued Maliens class them as white. Meanwhile they use yellow as their self-determined colour and label coastals white while classing most Maliens grey. What makes the coastals colour call accurate and correct and that of Maliens or the Kel Tamasheq themselves wrong? Since the conflict is Maliens versus Kel Ifoghas I trust their word over coastals or anybody else. It goes back to the days of the Songhai and Mali empires. This is what, in a major way, drives the Kel Ifoghas vs Malien discord. Long before there was a western science of physical anthropology and its classification of race the people of this region of Africa developed their own racial concepts and couldn't care less what outsiders say. Since race is a social construct the race of any one breeding population will vary pending which society view is considered. Sometimes many societies' views converge on the racial identity of a breeding population and, as in this case, there are times different societies' opinions do not at all agree. The Kel Ifogrhas (main branch of Kel Tamasheq in Mali) view themselves as composed of three races corresponding to their class structure i.e., red, green, and black approximate noble, vassal, and slave. But all reds aren't nobles nor are all blacks slaves. Also, there are green nobles and green slaves. This is the thing people dont seem to understand. People both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics and Berbercentrics as well like to pretend the Berbers/Moors were either All black or all off-white Pseudo-Europeans. The fact is the Berbers have blacks and so called whites but most are intermediate between both. Afrocentrics have this fantasy that the Berbers were blacks controlling "Da White Man" in Europe and while some of the North Africans who came to Power in the Mediterranean Empires like Rome and Spain were "Blacks" most were not. Al-Rahman III of Andalucia(probably the most powerful of the Andalucian Moors) was described as a Red Head with blue eyes. The funny part is that as anti-black Berbers are, their culture is WAY more similar to the Blacks than to European whites. |
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Post by justcallmejari on Nov 2, 2013 6:27:29 GMT -5
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