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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 20, 2010 0:47:02 GMT -5
Greetings Phamily I have recently finished an article titled Could the Kongo be Modern Kmt in which I make a linguistical argument that the place-name Kongo is the same as Km.t. I also address whether Km.t refers to black people or the black soil: a debate that has going on for decades. Here is the link: www.asarimhotep.com/documentdownloads/could_the_kongo_be_modern_kmt.pdfAncestrally, Asar Imhotep www.asarimho ???tep.com
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Post by anansi on Apr 21, 2010 6:42:47 GMT -5
Sorry I am having trouble opening your pdf..I am using Bit torrent default..and it just won't let me in!!!.. . Anyways the Congo which is part of the Great Lakes region should be another interesting area of studies when it come to dealing with the origins of Nile valley civilizations after-all it is quite possible that this was the area that the Kemites sought out the Twa to do the dances of the Gods..mostly likely Bes. and I thought the term Eboney ..the wood came from that area..Kmt..HBNY..do you know if the folks in that area really called the same wood by that name? not to mention the ubiquitous head-rest and the Khopesh like sword present in the area..amongst other links.
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 21, 2010 18:17:08 GMT -5
Can you download adobe reader? get.adobe.com/reader/?promoid=BUIGOIf you have Adobe Reader on your system, just right click the link (if on pc), choose "save as" and download it to your computer system.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 22, 2010 10:58:30 GMT -5
Hi imhotep06, I browsed thru your paper, but in all honesty I failed to see how your argument was proven. Even your abstract is missing key elements, such as the conclusions and methods used to come to the conclusion. So it was very difficult for me to follow your logic throughout the paper, as it appears to be 'all over the place', some points you were comparing the AE language to Yoruba, and other points you were comparing the word KONG to it's use in the name Hong Kong? ? This made the paper very confusing and illogical to me. Maybe you can stress a few key points here, with a bit more clarification; meaning are you comparing languages, or are you comparing concepts, in the end if you could just state in simple logic, exactly how the Word Kongo, derived from the Bantu language Kikongo, relates to the word Kmt, derived from the AE demotic/coptic languages. Also if you could share what methods you used in connecting the Afrasan and Niger-Kongo language families. Thanks.
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 22, 2010 16:56:25 GMT -5
The premise is simple: the word KONGO and the name for Egypt KMT are cognates (one and the same). I hate long abstracts because you end up repeating it in the intro which makes it redundant. The method was clear: compare our term KMT in these principle languages: Yoruba, CiLuba, Hebrew and Arabic with the primary stress being Yoruba and CiLuba as it is believed Hebrew and Arabic are “more closely” related to Egyptian when in fact they are not. A full treaty of how Yoruba and Ciluba are related to Egyptian is beyond the scope of this essay; thus why I provided some sources that dealt with this argument from Obenga and Oduyoye. As mentioned in the article, it is believed that only Semitic languages build words off of bi- and tri-consonantal roots. I argue this is not the case and we can demonstrate this by comparing the terminology in African languages. Thus the root of the word pronounced in modern Egyptological records Kemet has a k-m root. I demonstrate in the article that this k-m root in related African languages is k-m, k-n, g-n, j-n and g-m. A second part of the discussion, also mentioned in the introduction, is whether Km.t meant black land or black people. This article kills two birds with one stone. By answering this question we come to the conclusion that Kongo/Kanga/Kanda is Kemet in form and meaning. Kongo, k-n suffix -go Kanga, k-n suffix -ga Kanda, k-n-d Kemet, k-m-t Gan, g-n m > n t > d k > g As articulated in the work, the mistake historians use when trying to argue whether kmt means black land or black people is that they are unaware of its root (k-m) and how terms are built off the root. Thus, one seeks to first understand what is the primary meaning from which the other meanings derive. We discover in the text that the k-m root has the primary connotation of a “creative force/energy” that is responsible for all life. The Africans played on this concept when constructing concepts built off the k-m root. The –go in Kongo is an old Niger-Congo suffix. GJK Campbell-Dunn is of the belief that Niger-Kordofanian is the root language of the world’s languages. Thus when Africans left Africa and went into Asia, they brought this concept of k-m/k-n with them and it still survives in the word Kong in Chinese. He also demonstrates that the Maori language is Niger-Congo as well, thus why we did the comparisons with Maori. Dr. Winters can provide the evidence, as well as Runoko Rashidi and Wayne Chandler and Chiekh Anti Diop in regards to Blacks in Asia. So we use Black African languages to provide evidence for the real meaning behind the name KMT which Africentrists argue means Black People. This cannot be the case when you don’t find in other Black languages the k-m root, meaning black, to mean black people. You do find it meaning farm, cultivated land, earth, polis, country, city, village, etc., with NO color connotation. On this blacks are going to have to concede to the Eurocentrists that KMT refers to land. However, we don’t based this on their flawed method. They are correct but for the wrong reasons. We determine this based on diachronic linguistics in African languages which provides us a reason as to WHY km.t is named as such. This you cannot answer simply trying understand the term synchronically (by examining only Egyptian). So by examining African languages, we come to find out that kmt was used to mean various things (was polysemic): thus why there are so many spellings of kmt and usages of the term. Hi imhotep06, I browsed thru your paper, but in all honesty I failed to see how your argument was proven. Even your abstract is missing key elements, such as the conclusions and methods used to come to the conclusion. So it was very difficult for me to follow your logic throughout the paper, as it appears to be 'all over the place', some points you were comparing the AE language to Yoruba, and other points you were comparing the word KONG to it's use in the name Hong Kong? ? This made the paper very confusing and illogical to me. Maybe you can stress a few key points here, with a bit more clarification; meaning are you comparing languages, or are you comparing concepts, in the end if you could just state in simple logic, exactly how the Word Kongo, derived from the Bantu language Kikongo, relates to the word Kmt, derived from the AE demotic/coptic languages. Also if you could share what methods you used in connecting the Afrasan and Niger-Kongo language families. Thanks.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 23, 2010 7:12:29 GMT -5
Respectfully speaking, Imhotep06, you are trying to base an entire argument on the basis of a simple concept, rather than on the technical aspects of the languages.
You are making a presumptuous statement, that “K-N” forms the root of the word Kongo, and trying to use this as a cognate for the “K-M” in Kemet. Unfortunately this doesn’t work, as you are inserting the Hebrew system which lack vowel, to form the root of a language which does contain vowels. When vowels are inserted the root of the word completely changes in definition, hence the root meaning.
Using English as an example, I will demonstrate the error in this logic.
English consonants P-T, alone, do not denote a ROOT word, as each time a vowel is inserted, the complete meaning of the word changes as well. I.E. PAT, PIT, POT, PUT, PET
Hence you cannot simply ignore the technical aspect of language formation to support your argument. In other words although Egyptian words may display consonant roots, this is not the case with the Kikongo and other Bantu languages which sometimes carry up to 10 vowel sounds, which change the entire root word.
In the Bantu language, a vowel is noted even if it is not always displayed. For example, the Kongo Queen, Nzinga. The N is not pronounced as a beginning consonant, so the name would not be pronounce NA-zinga, but rather IN-zinga. The same with the word Ngola, which would be pronounce AN-gola, rather than NA-gola. Other words would include Ndongo, Ngoyo,Nkusu, Nkuluntu and so on.
Back to the topic, the word KONGO by itself forms a root, you cannot simply separate the syllables, KON and GO, to validate your claim. The root kongo exists in other words, such as , Kakongo, Kikongo, Bakongo. It is a proper name, as many Africans name their children for skills they believe would be acquired by them. As was the case with Queen Nzinga.
So alone it forms the basis of the word kongo, which from their language means to hunt, as a verb (kubinga), and hunter as a noun, hence the elders probably named the original Nkanga, as a hunter. Successive rulers adopted the name Nkanga..Mvemba a Nkanga, Avaro I and Avaro II a Nkanga, and Garcia II Nkanga, leads you to believe these are the ancestors of Nkanga, who was a person, before being named a place. As those kingdoms were named after the rulers. For example, (modern day Angola) is named after the original King Ngola, father of Queen Nzinga.
Further, in my opinion, you did not show a good basis for proving that the root word K-M, means to farm, hence K-M-T, would be defined as Land of Farmers, as T is the determinant for land or nation, as in T-seti (land of archers). The root K-M is generally agreed to denote something black or darkened by heat. So whether the concept meant black soil or Black people, is still debatable, but what is not debated is that it meant Nation of Blacks, or Black Nation, as the soil argument is a weak speculation, based on the fact that most of Egypt is DESERT land.…But farm soil or farm people, is questionable, and would need to be approached from another angle, if people are expected to accept it.
Now to be clear, I am not arguing that other African languages are not related to the Ancient Egyptian language, as I have never believed that it derived from Asiatic languages, but rather Asiatic languages derived from IT, which is why we now adopted the term Afrasan, rather than Afro-Asiatic, as it is only part of the African language family, and the Semitic or Asiatic elements of it were transported out of Africa by a success of migrations across the continent. As we now realize that the oldest form of the Asiatic languages were spoken 1000 years before in the Horn of Africa, before elements were later evolved in Arabia. But you cannot pick and choose common meanings widely dispersed from West Africa to China, to formulate a thesis, as you do realize that languages continue to evolve separately, rather on the continent or off , and there is much more diversity in the languages spoken on the continent, than the ones spoken as the proto-Africans migrated earlier on.
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 23, 2010 11:36:52 GMT -5
No disrespect, but you obviously were not following the paper and know little about historical comparative linguistics. We just don’t randomly insert vowels in the Egyptian and the k-m/k-n is based on comparing the same word in various languages. There is a thing in linguistics called sound shift. Here are the words for black in the languages cited:
KaMa →Black in Coptic, KaMi → Charcoal in Malenke – Bambara KaMbi → Charcoal in Malenke - Bambara iKaMa → Blackened in Mbochi (to go black) KaMi → Burnt in Bambara KeMi → Burnt in Mandjakou KeM → Burnt in Wolof KiM → Burnt in Mossi (Burkino Faso) KaMMi → Dark in Dravidian (Tamil) KaMMu → Dark in Dravidian (Tamil) KeMbou → Charcoal in Pulaar KeMpori → Black in Vai KeMatou → Completely burnt in Mandjakou GêM~GyêM → Black in Dogon (k > g) KeMbu →Black Coal in Vai KuMpu →Black in Yaaku
Now you should notice two things: 1) the consonants in the first and second position are the same /k/ and /m/ (with the exception of Dogon which sound shifts g-m), and 2) The vowels in the middle change for each language YET all mean Black or related to blackness (burnt, charcoal, etc.).
In linguistics cognate terms must stand on two feet: form and meaning. The form is the nature of the consonants. Do the consonants match in each lexical item compared? In this case we have k-m and sound shift in another language to g-m. MEANING deals with the value of the words under comparison. Do they mean the same thing or are conceptually similar.
When comparing languages for sound shifts, we look to see if the sound shifts are regular in the language. Black in Yoruba is not a k-m root but a g-n: agin, egan, and ogan. Your first semester student in comparative linguistics knows these basic common sound shifts: k > g and r > l > n, m > n. These sound shifts happen in the majority of the world’s languages. So when we see KM in Egyptian we can expect a GM or GN in another language and that is exactly what happens in the Yoruba cited above. Also, in the Egyptian language itself M and N are the same, thus why I provided alternate spellings in Egyptian as well to demonstrate this point.
In ciLuba and Kikongo we have a unique shift in the final consonant. Where coal is k-m in the languages cited above, in ciLuba the word is dikala. The di- is a prefix. The root is KALA. The m > l. KALA is cognate with Egyptian KM. We know this because in Kikongo KALA means “coal” and “black.” It also means “to come into existence, to be.”
You think something is all over the place because you don’t understand linguistics or any of its principles. Thus you would understand why I would compare the Egyptian term with the other Black African languages. That is method linguists use to make comparisons. You don’t make any sense and are trying to make a straw-man argument because you don’t know the principles. I challenge you to find in any Black African language the word KM to mean BLACK PEOPLE or BLACK NATION. Learn the principles first, then come back and make a critique. Your circular reasoning is baseless.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 23, 2010 14:24:16 GMT -5
As I stated before, it was difficult to follow your logic, as in here as well as the paper you continue to contradict yourself.
Here you show all the other words with KM roots that mean Black, and then you argue against YOURSELF, by claiming 2 posts above that KM means farm.
Now I don't even pretend to be an expert in Hieroglyphics, so you surely won't find me making myself appear illogical by attempting to construct a thesis on something, that I lack the BASIC concept of.
If you agree the KM forms the basis of the word Black....then duhhhh, when used with the determinant for people, then it would mean BLACK PEOPLE
When used with the determinant for Nation, then it would mean BLACK NATION
When used with the determinant for soil, then it would mean BLACK SOIL.
No one has to be a genius in hieroglyphics to understand this BASIC concept. Therefore your argument has NOT been proven, as you have not even demonstrated that you have the slightest understanding of the different determinants used with the Adjective Black.
You do understand that there is a different glyph for people, soil, and nation, and when the root KM is used with those determinants they form the concept of the word, or are you too naive in this area to even understand that the suffix T at the end of KM.T denotes NATION. hence KMT means Black Nation. If they wanted to relay the concept that it is a nation of Black SOIL, then obviously the determinant for SOIL would be included in the namesake, since a glyph for soil does exist, or is this beyond basic comprehension?
ETA; and even after all of this, you still have yet to show where the word Kongo means Black, Land, or Farm, using the language spoken by Congolese, Angolans, or any of the people. The weak effort with the word " dikala", simply doesn't cut it. I have already shown you that the word kongo/kanga means hunter in their native language, now don't skate around the issue, PROVE how it is related to the WORD Kemet.
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 23, 2010 14:38:04 GMT -5
Forgot to mention that Bantu languages are primarily made up of prefix + root + suffix. The KI in KIKONGO is a prefix. So is the BA in BAKONGO. As I stated in the paper KANGA is the KIKONGO word for FARM. This is why you compare related languages because the Yoruba, who live where the Bantu language was born (Nigeria/Cameroon), the word for farm is EGAN. In Hausa it is GONA. In Hebrew it becomes GAN (reduced to garden, but still a farm). Let's look at all of the forms: EGAN GAN GONA JANNA (Arabic) KANGA Rember Afrisan and Niger-Congo derive from the same parent language. These are inherited terms and are not due to borrowing. Thus why in CiLuba we find the following: KANDA = earth, field, a field that one plows in a day nkùnà(ò,ù) Nkuna, nkuna mamina, kena amina I plant and plant the seeds, they do not sprout (i.e., I am continually planting) Nkuna means to plant, to invest. KANGA = farm Put these terms in a single line vertically and what do you notice? KaNda = k-n + -da suffix nKuNa = n- prefix + k-n KaNga = k-n + -ga suffix Each one of these terms, within the same semantic field, have the K-N as the root. The first word KANDA is a variation of KMT: k-m-t/k-n-d. I have already in the paper demonstrated the m/n relationship between Yoruba, Egyptian and CiLuba. This is how we know that -GA is a suffix and not a part of the word. Just like KONGO, meaning forest, where the -GO is not a part of the word but its suffix. This same word in Yoruba is aginju (dark + wilderness) = agin-ju (g-n + -ju/k-n + -go). I mentioned that KONGO also means God and demonstrated this in the article. Here is just one reference for KONGO meaning God: www.ligali.org/article.php?id=504. I already gave the source which states KANGA/KONGO also means "place of initiation. So your "hunter" etymology makes no sense in light of Kongo culture. If anything, that root reflex the fact that they hunted in the forest (kongo).
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 23, 2010 14:47:39 GMT -5
I see you obviously didn't read the article because I showed the glyphs, the first attestations of KMT, as a national desgination, as having the N23 determinatives: THE SIGN FOR CULTIVATED LAND. THERE IS NO PEOPLE OR NIWT SYMBOL IN THESE RENDERINGS (see pgs 4 and 5 in article). This makes your point pointless. That, by your own admission, makes KMT BLACK LAND/SOIL......THUS, why you find in the OTHER RELATED BLACK LANGUAGES the word KM (as a root) to mean FARM/CULTIVATED LAND (watch this) ...JUST LIKE IN EGYPT.
So please quite posting if you aren't going to read the article. I addressed that after the introduction showing you the glyphs and giving you references where to find it. You don't have to be a "genius" in Hieroglyphs, but you DO HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO READ THEM.
This is what I need you to do, I need you to purchase this book and study it: Teach Yourself: Comparative Linguistics by Robert Lord (1966). If you want I can send you a pdf of the Linguistics Students Handbook as well. After studying these works, please demonstrate, using comparative linguistics, how your circular argument is even remotely logical.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 23, 2010 14:54:54 GMT -5
It's difficult to read the article, because it lacks cohesiveness, logic, and clarity, not because I suffer from any lack of basic comprehension. At any rate, after continuously witnessing your self-contradictions in this thread, its apparent why the paper itself is illogical as well. If you could simply clarify if the root KM means farm, then why are you showing all these language where it forms the basis for the words Black, Coal, and Burn? ?
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 23, 2010 15:06:36 GMT -5
It's illogical to you because you don't read. Did you miss this whole paragraph?
This is from page 3 of the 34 paged document. Why would you ask why did I give other meanings for KM. Especially after following this statement on page 3 again:
What about the argument is so hard for you to follow? The whole point, in this section, is to demonstrate that KM, with N23 determinative means cultivated land/soil. I supported this with the Yoruba language which shows that the k-m/g-n root means BLACK SOIL/CULTIVATED LAND.
Again, is this too hard to follow? What is not clear? This is why, sincerely, I suggest you study the basics of comparative linguistics and quite saying "it doesn't make sense to me" when you didn't even attempt to educate yourself on how linguists determine cognate terms and what are the rules and variables that shapes one's analysis.
Also, I showed in the article, that an alternate spelling of KM as QM is the root of a term that means GOD. Thus why we can compare, again, with ciLuba the word KON-GO which means GOD. I provided you with the link for that as well.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 23, 2010 15:09:26 GMT -5
Bantu has diphthongs like nz, ng, nt, etc., like nothing in Indo-European languages. Nzinga is a two syllable word; nzi-nga. Ngola is a two syllable word; ngo-la. Kongo's two syllables are ko and ngo. Ask a native speaker who teaches the language and they can demonstrate the sounds and how the mouth is held to form the sounds. In the Bantu language, a vowel is noted even if it is not always displayed. For example, the Kongo Queen, Nzinga. The N is not pronounced as a beginning consonant, so the name would not be pronounce NA-zinga, but rather IN-zinga. The same with the word Ngola, which would be pronounce AN-gola, rather than NA-gola. Other words would include Ndongo, Ngoyo,Nkusu, Nkuluntu and so on.
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Post by homeylu on Apr 23, 2010 15:22:21 GMT -5
^^ Altakruri, I know how Nzinga is pronounced, it is pronounced as EN ZIN GA, and not ZIN GA, in the Kimbundu language of Angola, AN GO LA, and from the original ruler Ngola.
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Post by imhotep06 on Apr 23, 2010 15:27:50 GMT -5
You have to know alternatives in a language as well. Often people make definitive statements about a term without knowing the synonyms. For instance, the word NGANGA is NGA-NGA, (nga reduplicated). Alternatives for this is NGAA and GA. The GA is equivalent to the Egyptian KA. This lets us know that the -ng- is not a diphthong, but two separate morphemes and the N- is a prefix attached to nouns in Bantu demonstrating "one who is, a possessor of, etc." So an NGAA, NGANGA, GA, NGA is "one who is a doctor/healer." For a reference for these alternate terms, see Modupe Oduyoye "Words and Meaning in Yoruba Religion: Linguistic Connections Between Yoruaba, Ancient Egyptian, and Semitic" ftnt 18 pg 134 Bantu has diphthongs like nz, ng, nt, etc., like nothing in Indo-European languages. Nzinga is a two syllable word; nzi-nga. Ngola is a two syllable word; ngo-la. Kongo's two syllables are ko and ngo. Ask a native speaker who teaches the language and they can demonstrate the sounds and how the mouth is held to form the sounds. In the Bantu language, a vowel is noted even if it is not always displayed. For example, the Kongo Queen, Nzinga. The N is not pronounced as a beginning consonant, so the name would not be pronounce NA-zinga, but rather IN-zinga. The same with the word Ngola, which would be pronounce AN-gola, rather than NA-gola. Other words would include Ndongo, Ngoyo,Nkusu, Nkuluntu and so on.
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