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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 11:36:31 GMT -5
Hi folks, I joined to discuss the following two quotes from Snowden:
Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists
Frank M. Snowden Jr.
Arion, Third Series, Vol. 4, No. 3 (Winter, 1997), pp. 28-50
Your thoughts?
Snowden restricts "blacks" to Sub-Saharan Africa, and only the southern segment of Egypt (Upper Egypt). North of this territory, he observes that skin colour is clinal and considerably lighter than dark brown (black): a light brown in Middle Egypt and an olive hue in Lower Egypt bordering "white" at the Mediterranean coast. The ancient Greeks and Romans also acknowledged that Middle and Lower Egyptians were not "black" but either (reddish) light brown or olive hued.
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Post by anansi on Mar 24, 2014 11:55:10 GMT -5
Hi folks, I joined to discuss the following two quotes from Snowden: Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists Frank M. Snowden Jr. Arion, Third Series, Vol. 4, No. 3 (Winter, 1997), pp. 28-50 Your thoughts? Snowden restricts "blacks" to Sub-Saharan Africa, and only the southern segment of Egypt (Upper Egypt). North of this territory, he observes that skin colour is clinal and considerably lighter than dark brown (black): a light brown in Middle Egypt and an olive hue in Lower Egypt bordering "white" at the Mediterranean coast. The ancient Greeks and Romans also acknowledged that Middle and Lower Egyptians were not "black" but either (reddish) light brown or olive hued. Hi Ben welcome to ESR, first off is this a troll thread?? We have had our fill with skin games,yes there were folks of different hues in Africa but the Kemites were a tropically adapted folk and that includes very dark or black skin if you will,the science literature put all such nonsense to rest,we now know where they came from the language they spoke their genetics and most important their culture.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 13:05:55 GMT -5
No they cannot be called "tropically adapted". Egypt (excluding the extreme south) is north of the tropic of cancer - see image below. As Snowden also points out Middle and Lower Egyptians are not dark brown skinned. Their complexion is lighter since they are adapted to less intense UV and not tropical latitude. They are at the same latitude as North Indians and Chinese, who are not tropical or 'black'.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 13:16:21 GMT -5
It is very strange that there is a diagram posted on this forum claiming the ancient egyptians were "tropical". Geographically they were not, and in skin tone the majority were not either (unless you include the far southern Upper Egyptians - who Snowden even allowed to be called 'black').
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:04:19 GMT -5
"It is in fact a not uncommon belief that Egypt was part of Black Africa, but as far as physical appearance goes this is not true. Thousands of sculpted and painted representations from Egypt and hundreds of well preserved bodies from its cemeteries show that the typical physical type was neither Negroid nor Negro." - Connor O’, David. (1971). “Ancient Egypt and Black Africa – Early Contacts”. Expedition: The Magazine of Archaeology/Anthropology. 14. pp. 2-9. www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/pdfs/14-1/ancient.pdfwww.penn.museum/sites/expedition/ancient-egypt-and-black-africa/I am only stressing here the complexion through "painted representations". Most ancient Egyptians are depicted as a (reddish) light brown, they are not 'black' or tropical and are basically the complexion of North Indians. Greco-Roman authors likened Egyptians' appearance to that of Northern Indians. According to Arrian (Indica 6.9): "The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:12:28 GMT -5
Now if we go back to Snowden. When did 'blacks' start actually appearing in Egypt in recognizable numbers?
"[Blacks] appear in Egypt from the beginning of the third millennium BC and multiply in number during the second half." - Snowden, Frank M. (1993). “Response”. Arethusa. xxvi. pp. 319-327.
"In fact, the earliest clearly recognizable Egyptian portrait of a black is preserved in a lime stone head of a woman, together with that of her Egyptian husband, a prince from the court of Memphis." - Snowden, Frank M. (1997). “Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists”. Arion. 4(3). pp. 28-50.
"Interracial mingling continued as black mercenaries increasingly served in the Egyptian army, married Egyptian women, and had mixed children. Intermarriages between Egyptians and women from the south were not uncommon, and the harems of the pharaohs included Nubian ladies." - Snowden, Frank M. (1997). “Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists”. Arion. 4(3). pp. 28-50.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:21:38 GMT -5
Anyone claiming the ancient egyptians were 'black' or 'tropical' would then have to argue North Indians and (south) Chinese are also - since these populations are at the same latitude. This is obviously silly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 14:30:45 GMT -5
"[T]he Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.” - Zakrzewski, Sonia R. (2007). “Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State”. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol. 132. pp. 501-509.
That "indigenous development" was non-tropical. Egypt is not part of the tropics. The bulk of its population has never been tropically adapted, or 'black'.
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Post by asante on Mar 24, 2014 14:37:18 GMT -5
Hi folks, I joined to discuss the following two quotes from Snowden: Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists Frank M. Snowden Jr. Arion, Third Series, Vol. 4, No. 3 (Winter, 1997), pp. 28-50 Your thoughts? Snowden restricts "blacks" to Sub-Saharan Africa, and only the southern segment of Egypt (Upper Egypt). North of this territory, he observes that skin colour is clinal and considerably lighter than dark brown (black): a light brown in Middle Egypt and an olive hue in Lower Egypt bordering "white" at the Mediterranean coast. The ancient Greeks and Romans also acknowledged that Middle and Lower Egyptians were not "black" but either (reddish) light brown or olive hued. Hi Ben welcome to ESR, first off is this a troll thread?? We have had our fill with skin games,yes there were folks of different hues in Africa but the Kemites were a tropically adapted folk and that includes very dark or black skin if you will,the science literature put all such nonsense to rest,we now know where they came from the language they spoke their genetics and most important their culture. lol Anansi ban Casper.
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Post by azrur on Mar 24, 2014 16:30:44 GMT -5
Hi Ben welcome to ESR, first off is this a troll thread?? We have had our fill with skin games,yes there were folks of different hues in Africa but the Kemites were a tropically adapted folk and that includes very dark or black skin if you will,the science literature put all such nonsense to rest,we now know where they came from the language they spoke their genetics and most important their culture. lol Anansi ban Casper.[quote/] why? he is to challenge your sayings is not a good way to test your knowledges?
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Post by asante on Mar 24, 2014 16:44:42 GMT -5
why? he is to challenge your sayings is not a good way to test your knowledges? Boy this is nothing more than white people/off white therapy so I'ma let y'all have it.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Mar 24, 2014 17:02:39 GMT -5
And I would say that the notion that light skinned Africans are genetically unrelated to darker skinned Africans is a Eurocentric notion that has no basis in reality. Just because two people have different skin colors does not mean they are unrelated. This is a fact that can be seen in many families in the African diaspora where skin colors run from mahogany, to cafe aulait to cream. As for Egypt. Having visited the country several times over the years from Alexandria to Aswan, I can tell you for a fact that more than 50% of the country is in fact the same color as many people found in southern East African countries. The reddish brown color depicted in Egyptian paintings is well within the spectrum of skin color found in many regions of Africa, skin that dark IS a tropical adaptation. Keep in mind that although the majority of Egypt is sub tropical, there is no barrier separating it from the tropical south. Furthermore, there was nothing preventing tropically adapted people from moving north. This can still be seen today. Go to Alexandria and stand in Manshia Square and look around. There are a lot of very dark people living there. Go to the train station and you will see train loads of Aswanis getting off the train every day. Whether they are light or dark, Saidis or Lower Egyptian, they are part of the same genetic family and their closest relatives are the Nubians. As a matter of fact, it's often impossible to tell who is Nubian and who is not. And even the lighter skinned people tend to often have the exact same facial features as their Saidi and Nubian cousines. Quite often, the person with the white skin, or light beige skin that is labled Arab, will have a black skinned sibling or cousines. Example #1: Nadia Hamdi, a personal friend. People would claim she's caucasian, because of her color and hair texture. Fact, her hair is chemically relaxed. In it's natural state it's kinky, hair type 4A. Second fact is her mother was a black woman, seen the photos myself. Example #2: An aquaintance, Aida Nour. Her mother is also a black woman: Example #3: Personal friends Olympian gold medalist Karam Gaber and his brother Adel. Once again, people would call them Arabs. Their youngest brother looks totally Eithiopian: Example #4: Anwar Sadat. His mother was a Sudanese woman: This is his son Gamal Next point. WHAT THE HELL ARE NEGRO FEATURES? American Negro Leena Horne: Based on her skin color, features and cranial measurements, hair texture,if they dug her up in Egypt they'd be talking caucasian this and that. Yey in the United States she was too blavk to use the same swimming pools as white people. Nobody had any qualms or questioned her being a negro. But somehow, in Africa the rules don't apply. Another example: Adam Clayton Powell Jr: Once again, Americans didn't have any problems wrapping their heads around the idea that he was the same race as Jackie Robinson: Yet for some reason, when we go to Africa, some people have an extraordinary time accepting the fact that Africans who have different features and skin colors can in fact be genetic relatives. Why is that? I think that I've given enough evidence to show that differences in skin color, cranial measurements, facial features, hair form do not neccessarily exclude people from being close relatives. Therefore, looking at Egyptians and labeling them caucasian based on certain features and infering otherness is bogus. Egyptians were native Africans. They had a range of features and skin colors because that is the norm for that part of Africa. Therefore, to conclude that they couldn't have been Africans because of certain features, or even more ridiculous, "they were African, but they weren't black", is nothing more than sheer stupidity. There most certainly were Egyptians who fit the stereotypical black/"negro" model and there were Egyptians who did not. Bother were Africans and related to each other. Terms like "black", "negro", "caucasian" are unscientific and have no meaning in the context of real life human beings in the real world. Ideas such as Snowden's may make sense to some people on paper, but the reality of real life shows them to be hollow.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Mar 24, 2014 18:35:30 GMT -5
Anyone claiming the ancient egyptians were 'black' or 'tropical' would then have to argue North Indians and (south) Chinese are also - since these populations are at the same latitude. This is obviously silly. You are aware of the fact that the colonial Brits considered Indians as a black group aren't you? If they considered the Maori black, what makes you think these people aren't also? Northern Indians: Just remind me. Americans who had these features were called what? Were told to sit where? If people in America saw no contradiction calling these people black: Then why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around people in Africa who look like this are also black? Egypt is full of people who look exactly like this. Same features, same skin color. So in America, a person can be black, no matter how light their skin, but in Africa, if you're in Egypt, then no matter how dark your skin.... you're not black. Are you serious?! Put a kid looking like Tut on a bus in Mississippi 70yrs ago, where would he be made to sit on the bus, front or back? NEWS FLASH! THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!CHUH!
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Post by azrur on Mar 24, 2014 18:53:51 GMT -5
yes truthteacher you are right but anwar sadat he is a nubian his mother is nubian and so was his father is what is said although his mother of his son gamal is a half english lady it is shame he was assassinated by the NATO terrorists
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 20:03:14 GMT -5
Truthteacher, there is no "African" genetic cluster, so I fail to see what your point is about genetic relatedness. The strange thing i've noticed about this forum is that while posters criticize "Caucasoids", "Hamites" and so forth - they themselves hold a racialist pan-African agenda to try to cluster all "Africans" together as some mono-division of humanity. Such a division does not exist, sorry. Africans are not a natural genetic or biological grouping. One can divide genetic continua as they please. If we are talking about climate and adaptation, then once again - Africans do not cluster together. There are many different ecological and climatic regions within Africa. The vast majority of Egypt belongs to what climatologists classify as 'hot desert climate' (bWh). As you can see, Africans do not cluster in terms of climatic adaptation.
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