Many modern Egyptians not identical to the ancients

[zarahan]

New DNA data suggests that many modern Egyptians are not identical to the ancient
Egyptians. While there is some linkage among SOME of today's Egyptians, particularly
particularly in the tropical south, from whence the Dynasties sprung, new data
indicates that many Egyptians today are Arabized/Eurasian types or hybrids.
This is not necessarily a new finding. Bone studies show that the very late period
Egyptians (600-350BC) have datasets that are not "typically" Egyptians, like the
earlier tropical African types before. Still, especially in the south, the
tropical African influence still shows. Note this is not an "either/or"
situation- bu a matter of degree. MOST modern Egyptians seem Arabized/Eurasian
but the DNA data still shows about one-third African, even with the Arabized
takeover of Egypt. Below is a roundup:

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----> FOX - COMAS - SANCHEZ-QUINTO




i58.tinypic.com/2nle1yc.jpg/IMG]


-----> Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel) sANCHEZ-qUINTO
here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.







Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African

[*]






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As expected, because of the Arab conquest and conquests by Persians,
Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, etc plus modern migration from Palestine
and other parts of the "Middle East" the African component today would
not be as strong- but it is still there, contradicting attempts by some
modern types to "cleanse" the African elements,or make out that everything
African today in Egypt is "foreign." This is not so. There is plenty of
African influence in Egypt even today. But today's MAJORITY is no longer
African. The Arabized/Eurasiatic types PREDOMINATE today. They are not
the full picture.

Again note, this does not mean that some links and holdovers are not in
Egypt today, but they are a minority, compared to the Arab dominance.

And again- just to be clear - there is still indigenous African influence in
Egypt today- the Nubians fr example have not gone anywhere, nor have the many
interchanges with the Sudan.

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quote:
"The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables
from 418 adult Egyptian individuals,
from six periods, ranging in date from
c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared
with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-
350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal
Component and Canonical Discriminant
Function Analyses were undertaken,
on both pooled and single sex samples.
The results suggest a level of local population
continuity exists within the earlier
Egyptian populations, but that this was in
association with some change in population
structure, reflecting small-scale immigration
and admixture with new
groups. Most dramatically, the results
also indicate that the Egyptian series
from Howells global data set are morphologically
distinct from the Predynastic and
Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially
in cranial vault shape and height),
and thus show that this sample cannot be
----Zakrewski, S. (2004) "Intra-population and temporal variation in
ancient Egyptian crania.

[zarahan]

But in any event, there is plenty to link ancient Egyptians
with other "sub-Saharan" Africans- let's see:
--DNA
--Cranial
--Dental
--Limb proportion
--Linguistic
--Cultural
--Foundational movements into the Nile Valley

And just so assorted deniers and distorters deliberately try
to build strawmen from the above:
^^It should also be noted that the primary provider
of the foundational Nile Valley population is indeed
"sub-Saharan" Africa. Even Mary Lefkowitz admits this.



-----------------------------------------------------------

Re some commentary on the web about how modern Arabi type Egyptians are
trying to "distance" themselves from their darker countrymen,
you can "distance" yoself from blackness all you want. Doesn't mean a damn
thing. The hard data on the bio-Africanity of the ancients is already in place.
It ain;t going anywhere. And the modern info STILL shows plenty of African
or "black" influence in modern Egypt. Assorted modern Arabi/Ferengi types
are trying to "white out" these people. But that won't work. If nothing else,
outside Egypt, it is some diasporan blacks, including Black Americans who
are keeping the faith with the darker sons of the soil.

They aren't running to and fro trying to "distance" themselves from
dark Egyptians like so many Arabi types. You see, Black folk of
the diaspora have not forgotten the dark "sons of the soil" of Egypt
or even certain Egyptian presidents.. And they aren't "ashamed" to be
"associated" with them.




^Diasporan focused but, in a broader sense, black folk of the diaspora aren't
"ashamed" of the African "groundings" in Egypt..

[zarahan]

Non-African ancestry in Egyptians traced to Islamic invasions and expansions

"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A),
we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians
to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to
around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates
reported previously. "
-- Luca Pagani et al. 2015. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225
Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians. e American Journal of Human Genetics.
American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 96, Issue 6, p986–991,

[karem]

One of the assertions I've noticed sometimes come up when people discuss modern Egyptians in relation to the ancients is that Copts are the true 'sons of the soil'. I'm aware this was used in colonial times as a way to pit people against each other. Is there any solid evidence to suggest that Copts as a religious group are the truest representation of ancients or is it just nationalistic sentiment ?

[truthteacher2007]

Jul 1, 2015 14:10:14 GMT -5 karem said:

One of the assertions I've noticed sometimes come up when people discuss modern Egyptians in relation to the ancients is that Copts are the true 'sons of the soil'. I'm aware this was used in colonial times as a way to pit people against each other. Is there any solid evidence to suggest that Copts as a religious group are the truest representation of ancients or is it just nationalistic sentiment ?

The overwhelming majority of Egyptians,( whether they are Muslim or Copt), are the biological descendants of the ancients. Now understand that being a biological descendant and being biologically identical are two different things. Case in point, my paternal line is traced back to the Bateke people of the Congo Region. The story was kept in the family as to how our paternal ancestor ended up in The West Indies in the late 1700's. My paternal DNA test confirmed that our family line does indeed originate in Central Africa. Having said that though, looking at my father's white skin and hazel blue eyes, it's obvious that we are not biologically identical to that ancestor. Along the way, through marriage, a great deal of European blood was introduced into our family line. So although we are genetic descendants of the Bateke, a full spectrum DNA analysis will show that we are quite different.

The term Copt has changed it's meaning over the centuries. Originally the term referred to Egyptian, plain and simple. However, in recent times it has come to be a term applied only to those Egyptians who resisted conversion to Islam and remained Christians. It's of interest to note that in the early days of the Islamic Empires, the Arabs would refer to the Egyptians as the Muslim and Christian Copts. While it is true that the Christians did not intermarry with the Arab invaders, it by no means means that they are "racially pure". The process of racial mixing, for want of a better term, began in antiquity before the foreign conquests of Egypt. In the beginning it was primarily in the North and gradual. Asiatics from Cannan migrated into the country from at least as early as the first intermediary period and settled in the Delta. We know this because there are Egyptian records from that period that mention this fact. At later times there were trading settlements in the Delta such as Neocratis, which was a Greek community, (this was well before conquest). So even before the last Egyptian Pharaoh sat on the throne, there was a degree of mixing taking place because of voluntary and involuntary migrations, (Cannanites during the New Kingdom were conscripted as labor in Egypt, which is what the story of the Exodus was based on).

When Egypt was under the rule of the Christian Byzantines there was quite a bit of mixing with Greek, Roman and Anatolian Christians who settled in the country. So although Copts may not have any Arab ancestry, they are far from "pure". However, due to the resentments of being treated like second class citizens, many Copts refuse to acknowledge that they are related to the Muslim majority. They want to set themselves apart claiming that they are a pure race and that Muslims are Arab invaders. This however, while creating a sense of ancestral pride does not explain why it's impossible to tell who is a christian or muslim just by looks. For this reason many Christians will tattoo a cross on their wrist or the space between the thumb and first finger to identify themselves. So Biological descendants of the Ancients, yes. More so than Muslims? No. Are any of them identical to their ancient ancestors? If we can't say this about most populations in the World, how can we say it about them? No one is exactly the same, with the exception of a few populations. Why does it even matter any way? No one stays the same forever. Even isolated populations like the Chinese and Japanese are beginning to change as they join the larger world community and start experiencing immigrant communities. Hell, After a few generations who knows what effect Anasi's descendants will have on Japan's gene pool!

[ⲟⲩⲱⲛϣ]

Modern Egyptian Muslims, nor Coptic Christians, are by no means biologically, linguistically, or culturally related to the ancient African Egyptians. I have been studying this subject for nearly five years, and have been eager to jump into Egyptsearch discussions. The very man responsible for deciphering the hieroglyphs in 1822, Jean Francois Champollion stated himself it was wrong to find the characteristics of the old race in the Egyptian Copts. Southern Egyptians belonging to the fellahin social class have a significant amount of Negroid blood, but they have retained little of the culture which is more widely seen in sub-Saharan Africa. Albeit the Egyptian Fella have retained some of agricultural customs and folkloric traditions, they have lost most of the African customs which made Egyptians Africans and not Asiatics. The main reason for the loss of culture is from ethnocidial restrictions pressed on them from Muslim conquerors over the centuries. Muslims only have one mindset, convert the whole world to Islam; this ideology is known as the Muslim social project. Many indigenous African traditions are now considered taboo/pagan ever since Islam spread across Africa, and later with advent of European colonialism even more African customs and traditions were outlawed. The reason Egypt is often precieved to be middle eastern is because the black Egyptians and Sudanese are culturally Arabs, however, Arabic culture which is ethnolinguistic has nothing to do with ancient Egyptian culture whatsoever. While I was attending college I saw this thinking demonstrated by a professor I had. When I asked him about what the ancient racial makeup of Egypt was, he claimed it was middle eastern, a geo-political term which makes absolutely makes no sense when applied to race.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is HamiticPress, if you have questions feel free to ask.

[nebsen]

Jul 6, 2015 0:18:22 GMT -5 ⲟⲩⲱⲛϣ said:

Modern Egyptian Muslims, nor Coptic Christians, are by no means biologically, linguistically, or culturally related to the ancient African Egyptians. I have been studying this subject for nearly five years, and have been eager to jump into Egyptsearch discussions. The very man responsible for deciphering the hieroglyphs in 1822, Jean Francois Champollion stated himself it was wrong to find the characteristics of the old race in the Egyptian Copts. Southern Egyptians belonging to the fellahin social class have a significant amount of Negroid blood, but they have retained little of the culture which is more widely seen in sub-Saharan Africa. Albeit the Egyptian Fella have retained some of agricultural customs and folkloric traditions, they have lost most of the African customs which made Egyptians Africans and not Asiatics. The main reason for the loss of culture is from ethnocidial restrictions pressed on them from Muslim conquerors over the centuries. Muslims only have one mindset, convert the whole world to Islam; this ideology is known as the Muslim social project. Many indigenous African traditions are now considered taboo/pagan ever since Islam spread across Africa, and later with advent of European colonialism even more African customs and traditions were outlawed. The reason Egypt is often precieved to be middle eastern is because the black Egyptians and Sudanese are culturally Arabs, however, Arabic culture which is ethnolinguistic has nothing to do with ancient Egyptian culture whatsoever. While I was attending college I saw this thinking demonstrated by a professor I had. When I asked him about what the ancient racial makeup of Egypt was, he claimed it was middle eastern, a geo-political term which makes absolutely makes no sense when applied to race.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is HamiticPress, if you have questions feel free to ask.

Welcome, HamiticPress ! Great to have new input into this topic.

[ⲟⲩⲱⲛϣ]

Thank you for the warm welcomes! I apologize for some of the misspellings in my last post, it was a late night. Following up on my story, about my conversation with a college professor I once had, his expression was priceless when I showed him this photo. My professors entire tune changed after that! 

museu.gulbenkian.pt/Museu/en/Collection/Antiquity/EgyptianArt/Piece?a=164