Study Discussion: Genetics, Egypt, and History

[truthcentric]

muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf

On another message board I used to frequent (I've left it now), someone was using this study to prove that Egyptians' relatively light skin compared to tropical Africans could not have been because of recent Eurasian admixture. He points out that Upper Egyptians, many of whom look like this, have only 10% of the Eurasian haplotypes combined; all the rest are indigenous African. Therefore, he believes that light skin and other non-tropical characteristics in Egyptians are something the Egyptians evolved independently of Eurasian admixture.

[sundiata]

^Sure, some traits along the Nile valley developed due to in situ processes, but light skin isn't one of them. That argument is invalid since Y-chromosome markers have nothing to do with skin color. No inferences about skin color can be made by studying Y-chromosome lineages. Furthermore, picture spam is only used for the visual effects of propaganda, especially when posted out of context. Therefore, the above argument is fallacious and doesn't even warrant refutation.

[truthcentric]

Apr 4, 2010 20:06:56 GMT -5 sundiata said:

That argument is invalid since Y-chromosome markers have nothing to do with skin color. No inferences about skin color can be made by studying Y-chromosome lineages.

True, but Y-chromosome data can indicate how many foreign genes went into a population. If the Y-chromosome data shows that the Eurasian contribution to the Upper Egyptian gene pool was so small, then we'll have to conclude that it was not enough to account for all the light-skinned upper Egyptians.

[zarahan]

Apr 4, 2010 20:24:30 GMT -5 truthcentric said:

Apr 4, 2010 20:06:56 GMT -5 sundiata said:

That argument is invalid since Y-chromosome markers have nothing to do with skin color. No inferences about skin color can be made by studying Y-chromosome lineages.

True, but Y-chromosome data can indicate how many foreign genes went into a population. If the Y-chromosome data shows that the Eurasian contribution to the Upper Egyptian gene pool was so small, then we'll have to conclude that it was not enough to account for all the light-skinned upper Egyptians.

On the old forum and on this one, you keep beating the same old "incoming Caucasoids" drum and have yet again failed to establish your claim in either place.

Y-Chromosome data does not necessarily indicate light skin color, and showing a high percentage "Eurasian" genes like Arabs in today's Egypt does nothing to tell us what the ancient Nile Valley was like on that point. Light skin could have easily evolved in ultra diverse Africa, and indeed, Africa is the most genetically diverse place on earth as shown repeatedly by science (Tishkoff 2000, 2009 2002 etc). SOMETIME LATER in various time phases, Eurasian gene flow occurred in Africa, but the ORIGINAL light skin was ALREADY built-into place in indigenous Africans, without needing any "Eurasians." Your premise is flawed on 3 counts:

(1) one of the older populations in Africa, the Khoisian peoples, have light skin, usually a yellowish or light brown. And indeed as noted by Tishkoff 2009, said San peoples have one of the highest levels of genetic diversity in Africa- BUILT-IN, without needing any "Caucasoids" to explain why.



(2) Skin color may also be related IN PART to climate- hence peoples in less hot zones may have lighter skin from less UV exposure. People near the cooler Mediterranean zone compared to people near the hotter equator may illustrate this. However in ultra diverse Africa even this generalization has to be qualified for some light skinned Bushmen live in the searing heat of the Kalahari Desert, while dark-skinned Africans live on cool climate mountain slopes.

3) Several early populations of the Middle east/West Asia and even Europe were dark-skinned and resembled today's black Africans more than today's white Europeans as shown by Brace 2005 and Hanihara 1996, and Holliday 2003, et al. Reputed "backflow" tens of thousands of years ago from "Eurasia" still does not establish any "light skin", because the "backflowees" resembled Africans to begin with. Continued residence in the colder climes of Europe and Asia produced lighter skin, but that is altogether different from saying that Africans needed reputed 'Eurasian" migrants to give them light skin. Such skin is ALREADY built-into Africans as part of the indigenous range, and cooler climate zones are ALSO part of the African landscape, again, without needing any "Eurasian" migrants to explain why.

To prove your claim you have to show that the genes for light skin were nowhere present in African until reputed "migrants" introduced it from "Eurasia", and that said genes or y-chromosomes is responsible for light skin in Africa. This you have signally failed to do for several years now, both on the old forum and now on the new. Again, when are you going to actually deliver some hard proof to back up your assertions? Nobody is being fooled. Everyone is on to your game.

[truthcentric]

Neither I nor my StarDestroyer correspondent claimed that light skin in Egyptians was the product of admixture with Eurasians. If anything, we were arguing that light skin may have evolved in situ in Egypt due to its relatively high latitude.

[jari]

Apr 5, 2010 10:32:03 GMT -5 truthcentric said:

Neither I nor my StarDestroyer correspondent claimed that light skin in Egyptians was the product of admixture with Eurasians. If anything, we were arguing that light skin may have evolved in situ in Egypt due to its relatively high latitude.

No the problem is you obvious lack of comprehension and lack of long term memory. You claim that most Upper Egyptians look like the link you got from Mathilda's blog but yet you seem to forget the Fact that Bedouin Arabs settled in Upper Egypt and live along with the native Fellah's of Upper Egypt...

After the 7th-century Arab invasion of Egypt a social hierarchy was created whereby Egyptians who converted to Islam acquired the status of mawali or "clients" to the ruling Arab elite, while those who remained Christian, the Copts, became dhimmis. The privilege enjoyed by the Arab minority continued in a modified form into the modern period in the countryside, where remnants of Bedouin Arab tribes lived alongside Egyptian fellahin. One author describes the social demographics of rural Upper Egypt as follows:
Egyptian fellah.

Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost governorates. ... the region's history is one of isolated removal from the center of national life. The local relationships resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an identity of its own within the modern Egyptian state. Alongside the even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two [minority] groups, the ashraf and the Arab, in dominating positions. These were followed by lesser tribes, with the [Egyptian] fellah at the bottom of the social scale(28) [...] Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed indirect descent from the Prophet, while the Arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the Ashraf and Arabs. [...] In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin.[11]

Some Images of Egyptian Fellah

^^^^
And this Fellahin is pretty Light skinned compared to the other Images I have.
Aswani people


Im not going to bog this particular thread with pictures but I will continue this in the Pictures and Media section.

[truthcentric]

Apr 5, 2010 12:00:22 GMT -5 jari said:

No the problem is you obvious lack of comprehension and lack of long term memory. You claim that most Upper Egyptians look like the link you got from Mathilda's blog but yet you seem to forget the Fact that Bedouin Arabs settled in Upper Egypt and live along with the native Fellah's of Upper Egypt...

After the 7th-century Arab invasion of Egypt a social hierarchy was created whereby Egyptians who converted to Islam acquired the status of mawali or "clients" to the ruling Arab elite, while those who remained Christian, the Copts, became dhimmis. The privilege enjoyed by the Arab minority continued in a modified form into the modern period in the countryside, where remnants of Bedouin Arab tribes lived alongside Egyptian fellahin. One author describes the social demographics of rural Upper Egypt as follows:
Egyptian fellah.

Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost governorates. ... the region's history is one of isolated removal from the center of national life. The local relationships resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an identity of its own within the modern Egyptian state. Alongside the even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two [minority] groups, the ashraf and the Arab, in dominating positions. These were followed by lesser tribes, with the [Egyptian] fellah at the bottom of the social scale(28) [...] Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed indirect descent from the Prophet, while the Arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the Ashraf and Arabs. [...] In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin.[11]

And yet the Southwest Asian and other Eurasian contribution to the Upper Egyptian genome is only 10% according to Y-chromosome data.

Some Images of Egyptian Fellah

^^^^
And this Fellahin is pretty Light skinned compared to the other Images I have.
Aswani people


Im not going to bog this particular thread with pictures but I will continue this in the Pictures and Media section.

None of those are that dark-skinned to me. Some do look biracial though.

[jari]

Apr 5, 2010 12:29:15 GMT -5 truthcentric said:

Apr 5, 2010 12:00:22 GMT -5 jari said:

No the problem is you obvious lack of comprehension and lack of long term memory. You claim that most Upper Egyptians look like the link you got from Mathilda's blog but yet you seem to forget the Fact that Bedouin Arabs settled in Upper Egypt and live along with the native Fellah's of Upper Egypt...

After the 7th-century Arab invasion of Egypt a social hierarchy was created whereby Egyptians who converted to Islam acquired the status of mawali or "clients" to the ruling Arab elite, while those who remained Christian, the Copts, became dhimmis. The privilege enjoyed by the Arab minority continued in a modified form into the modern period in the countryside, where remnants of Bedouin Arab tribes lived alongside Egyptian fellahin. One author describes the social demographics of rural Upper Egypt as follows:
Egyptian fellah.

Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost governorates. ... the region's history is one of isolated removal from the center of national life. The local relationships resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an identity of its own within the modern Egyptian state. Alongside the even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two [minority] groups, the ashraf and the Arab, in dominating positions. These were followed by lesser tribes, with the [Egyptian] fellah at the bottom of the social scale(28) [...] Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed indirect descent from the Prophet, while the Arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the Ashraf and Arabs. [...] In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin.[11]

And yet the Southwest Asian and other Eurasian contribution to the Upper Egyptian genome is only 10% according to Y-chromosome data.

Some Images of Egyptian Fellah

^^^^
And this Fellahin is pretty Light skinned compared to the other Images I have.
Aswani people


Im not going to bog this particular thread with pictures but I will continue this in the Pictures and Media section.

None of those are that dark-skinned to me. Some do look biracial though.

Expain Bi Racial and Dark Skinned?? My Father who has Hazel Green Eyes and skin tone matching Rev. Jeremiah Whight is classified as Black In America and was segregated from whites, he is Def. More "Light Skinned" than the Fellah and Aswani people.

Im not debating on Skin Shades, (seems to me Eurocentics like you need to keep a certain African look and only that can define "Black"), im Debating on Tropical Adapted body plans, as well as skull shapes etc. and from the looks of it the Aswani and Fellah fall into the Tropically adapted category as can be seen in those photos, even Mathilda who you seem to flock to for photos admites that there is little Eurasian DNA in Upper Egypt meaning they are native Tropically adapated Africans.

In keeping this thread to the on Topic, unless Zarahan wants to comment and does'nt mind the discussion switching, I made a thread in the Pictures and Media section.

[Charlie Bass]

Apr 4, 2010 18:21:08 GMT -5 truthcentric said:

muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf

On another message board I used to frequent (I've left it now), someone was using this study to prove that Egyptians' relatively light skin compared to tropical Africans could not have been because of recent Eurasian admixture. He points out that Upper Egyptians, many of whom look like this, have only 10% of the Eurasian haplotypes combined; all the rest are indigenous African. Therefore, he believes that light skin and other non-tropical characteristics in Egyptians are something the Egyptians evolved independently of Eurasian admixture.

Let me explain something, Y chromosones are only carried by males and their frequency in a population can increase via drift or founder effect, so pay mathilda no mind.

[Charlie Bass]

Apr 4, 2010 20:24:30 GMT -5 truthcentric said:

Apr 4, 2010 20:06:56 GMT -5 sundiata said:

That argument is invalid since Y-chromosome markers have nothing to do with skin color. No inferences about skin color can be made by studying Y-chromosome lineages.

True, but Y-chromosome data can indicate how many foreign genes went into a population. If the Y-chromosome data shows that the Eurasian contribution to the Upper Egyptian gene pool was so small, then we'll have to conclude that it was not enough to account for all the light-skinned upper Egyptians.

Again, Y-chromosones are only carried by males so the fact that mathilda posted pictures of females and a study about Egyptian Y-chromosones should tell you she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about.

[truthcentric]

The fact that Egyptian Y-chromosomes are so predominantly African despite their light skin is relevant because any Eurasian invasions into Egypt would have been carried out predominantly by men. Who knows how African Egyptian mtDNA is?

[sundiata]

^These are the most ridiculous rebuttals I've ever seen. Tyro is of the contention that since Egyptians by and large carry African Y-chromosomes, of the variety associated with e1b1b, e1b1b2, and e1b1a (in descending frequency), and since some Egyptians have relatively lighter skin than other Africans, it concludes that those markers can be associated with light skin and thus, the Egyptians have always been light skinned.

This ignores so much (including the fact that ultra dark skinned populations carry these same lineages). How about some context here. Berbers, even the hyper-light skinned northwesterners carry predominant Y-chromosome lineages yet we are aware that there has been much maternally mediated gene flow and that their light skin is due to the European-derived SLC24A5 mutation.

“Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and
East Asians”
Heather L. Norton,*1 Rick A. Kittles

The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%).

The virtual absence of MATP 374*G–derived allele in the sub-Saharan African populations that we examined in the CEPH-Diversity Panel is consistent with the origin of this mutation outside of Africa after the divergence of modern Asians and Europeans. In contrast, the SLC24A5 111*A–derived allele is found at low frequencies in several sub-Saharan populations including the West African Mandenka and Yoruba, the Southern African San , and SouthWest Bantu. The relatively high frequencies of the derived allele in Central Asian, Middle Eastern, and North Africa seem likely to be due to gene flow with European populations. Similarly, the presence of the derived allele (albeit at low frequencies) in some sub-Saharan African populations may be due to recent gene flow from European and Central Asian populations.

The gene is absent in the relatively more isolated "sub-Saharan" or very dark skinned African populations. The allele developed in Europe and is present in North Africa. Therefore, it concludes that said light skin color in North Africa is due to admixture with incoming hordes from Europe or through some kind of proxy. Thus, your argument falls flat.

Now, two direct questions. 1) Does a super tropical body plan indicate overall "tropical" adaptation, including dark skin, as suggested by Brace (1993)? 2) Do light skinned moderns have this super tropically adapted skeletal structure and if not, what changed? If this changed, couldn't their skin color have changed a bit as well, assuming a direct correlation?

[truthcentric]

Apr 5, 2010 13:38:09 GMT -5 sundiata said:

Berbers, even the hyper-light skinned northwesterners carry predominant Y-chromosome lineages yet we are aware that there has been much maternally mediated gene flow

Did Egyptians have this same maternally mediated gene flow? Last time I checked, their mtDNA landscape was more similar to that of Ethiopian than Berber or Southwest Asian populations.

and that their light skin is due to the European-derived SLC24A5 mutation.

“Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and
East Asians”
Heather L. Norton,*1 Rick A. Kittles

The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%).

The virtual absence of MATP 374*G–derived allele in the sub-Saharan African populations that we examined in the CEPH-Diversity Panel is consistent with the origin of this mutation outside of Africa after the divergence of modern Asians and Europeans. In contrast, the SLC24A5 111*A–derived allele is found at low frequencies in several sub-Saharan populations including the West African Mandenka and Yoruba, the Southern African San , and SouthWest Bantu. The relatively high frequencies of the derived allele in Central Asian, Middle Eastern, and North Africa seem likely to be due to gene flow with European populations. Similarly, the presence of the derived allele (albeit at low frequencies) in some sub-Saharan African populations may be due to recent gene flow from European and Central Asian populations.

The gene is absent in the relatively more isolated "sub-Saharan" or very dark skinned African populations. The allele developed in Europe and is present in North Africa. Therefore, it concludes that said light skin color in North Africa is due to admixture with incoming hordes from Europe or through some kind of proxy. Thus, your argument falls flat.

I'll concede that you have a good point there. However, I am still confused as to how a population like the Egyptians, whose Y-chromosome and mtDNA landscapes resemble those of Ethiopians and other northeast Africans, could look so different. If you can show me that 10% foreign genes (inherited either paternally or maternally) in a gene pool are enough to radically change a population's appearance, you'll win the debate, and I'll accept black ancient Egypt again.

Now, two direct questions. 1) Does a super tropical body plan indicate overall "tropical" adaptation, including dark skin, as suggested by Brace (1993)? 2) Do light skinned moderns have this super tropically adapted skeletal structure and if not, what changed? If this changed, couldn't their skin color have changed a bit as well, assuming a direct correlation?

I don't think there has ever been a study comparing the limb proportions of ancient Egyptians to modern Egyptians. That would be an interesting area to study. However, limb proportions are an adaptation to temperature, not UV radiation. Wouldn't a place like Egypt, which can get very hot (hotter, in fact, than some tropical regions, such as some Pacific islands) but receives non-tropical UV radiation levels, favor the evolution of a light-skinned population with heat-adapted limb proportions?

[truthcentric]

Having thought about the study I cited in the OP some more, I'm curious as to the identity of Haplotype V, found at high (more than 50%) levels in Lower Egypt. Keita thinks this is an indigenous African haplotype, but I wonder if Arabs or some other Eurasians may have re-introduced it into Egypt at some point, since it's also found in Southwest Asians. How would we test that?

[sundiata]

Did Egyptians have this same maternally mediated gene flow? Last time I checked, their mtDNA landscape was more similar to that of Ethiopian than Berber or Southwest Asian populations.

According to the Gurna study, yes.

"Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population."

You are correct that as far as MtDNA is concerned, Egyptians cluster closest with Ethiopians. So I'm just wondering. Do you now doubt that Ethiopians are black? What's the difference here? I've shown you that the only dispute here is over skin color and it has been demonstrated that the light complexion was introduced, leaving you with an ancient dark-skinned African population with uniparental African lineages. What else to you identifies "blackness"? You're also the same one who posted the thread on ES about the emergence of light skin among Europeans, suggesting that this trait only emerged some 6,000 years ago or so, coincident with the onset of Egyptian state formation. The window of time you're working with to entertain some light-skinned elite segments among the ancient Egyptian populace, or a predominance thereof, is very very small. They would have had to bum rush Africa soon after the mutation caught on.

I'll concede that you have a good point there. However, I am still confused as to how a population like the Egyptians, whose Y-chromosome and mtDNA landscapes resemble those of Ethiopians and other northeast Africans, could look so different. If you can show me that 10% foreign genes (inherited either paternally or maternally) in a gene pool are enough to radically change a population's appearance, you'll win the debate, and I'll accept black ancient Egypt again.

I've already won the debate because I've shifted the direction of the argument. I've shown you that the genes responsible for light skin in northern Africans comes from Europe and your parent post deals precisely with skin color. It is the only point of contention. You also answered your own question. Think about it. You ask: "how a population like the Egyptians, whose Y-chromosome and mtDNA landscapes resemble those of Ethiopians and other northeast Africans, could look so different."

Why don't you answer that question yourself since you realize the folly in your argument now (that genotype and phenotype are two different things). Uniparental markers are lineal. Assuming there are enough people with these lineages left in the country to mate with after the introduction of the foreign genes, certainly the Y-Chromosome pattern can stay in tact. This is why I can be dark as night and still be R1b due to some distant European ancestor or I can be a hyper-light skinned African-American in a sea of white folks, yet still possess an e1b1a west African marker shared with people who look nothing like me.

Now, two direct questions. 1) Does a super tropical body plan indicate overall "tropical" adaptation, including dark skin, as suggested by Brace (1993)? 2) Do light skinned moderns have this super tropically adapted skeletal structure and if not, what changed? If this changed, couldn't their skin color have changed a bit as well, assuming a direct correlation?

I don't think there has ever been a study comparing the limb proportions of ancient Egyptians to modern Egyptians. That would be an interesting area to study. However, limb proportions are an adaptation to temperature, not UV radiation.

Tell that to Brace, who I cited. I asked you do you agree with Brace. He mentioned nothing of UV Radiation vs. Temperature, he merely noted that both of these elements are associated with a tropical environment. A correlation.

Wouldn't a place like Egypt, which can get very hot (hotter, in fact, than some tropical regions, such as some Pacific islands) but receives non-tropical UV radiation levels, favor the evolution of a light-skinned population with heat-adapted limb proportions?

[/quote]

Dude, southwest Asia can get "very hot". I mean, how hot are you talking? Kemp found no relationship between lower Egyptians and their Palestinian neighbors directly next door. How much hotter is Egypt than Palestine? Is Egypt hotter than west Africa as well (I mean, they both straddle the Sahara with the difference being that west Africa's closer to the equator)? Because Zakrzewski stated that the Egyptian limb proportions suggest more extreme adaptations than even west Africans. Would this not require Egypt to be hotter than west Africa? Is it, typically? If not, then obviously they come from a tropical environment as noted by their tropical adaptations. All of the limb studies point to the fact that these are TROPICAL adaptions. As Keita says, "this is significant because Egypt is NOT in the tropics". These observations cannot be downplayed with amateurish speculation about how hot Egypt can get. Mathematical techniques and comparative measurements by scientists show that the Egyptians had extreme tropical adaptations, not semi-troical adaptations to a Mediterranean climate.

Not to mention that there isn't even any archaeological evidence that people continuously inhabited Egypt proper for that long, especially in isolation. Cultural evidence suggests that they came from somewhere. Somewhere south. Your problem is that you're asking these questions in isolation with no multidisciplinary context. When you put the pieces together, my position makes a whole lot more sense than yours.