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Post by nebsen on Feb 19, 2011 21:43:14 GMT -5
Yesterday on the evening news it was announced that a new exhibit at the main museum ( Northern California ) called Olmec : Colossal Master Work Of Ancient Mexico, which showed a couple of the colossal heads that so many on ESR are familiar with. They talked about this mysterious culture & civilization being the forerunner of both Mayan & Aztec civilizations with a very high culture that was in someways as sophisticated if not more, than both Mayan & Aztec esp. in stone arts. But, what got me, for the first time, I heard it said that the Olmec civilization seems to come from African roots as well as Asian influences . Now this is the first time that I have heard mainstream news outlet narrated by a latino news man, say African roots as well as Asian. They usually say mysterious peoples, or they will high light the Asian aspect only. Is this something new for mainstream museums & talks about the Olmec culture ? Any way, I live in a city with a huge latino, Mexican population , so the exhibit is being geared towards this community & it's link to Mexico !
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Post by anansi on Feb 19, 2011 23:06:52 GMT -5
Yesterday on the evening news it was announced that a new exhibit at the main museum ( Northern California ) called Olmec : Colossal Master Work Of Ancient Mexico, which showed a couple of the colossal heads that so many on ESR are familiar with. They talked about this mysterious culture & civilization being the forerunner of both Mayan & Aztec civilizations with a very high culture that was in someways as sophisticated if not more, than both Mayan & Aztec esp. in stone arts. But, what got me, for the first time, I heard it said that the Olmec civilization seems to come from African roots as well as Asian influences . Now this is the first time that I have heard mainstream news outlet narrated by a latino news man, say African roots as well as Asian. They usually say mysterious peoples, or they will high light the Asian aspect only. Is this something new for mainstream museums & talks about the Olmec culture ? Any way, I live in a city with a huge latino, Mexican population , so the exhibit is being geared towards this community & it's link to Mexico ! What ch. and for what city?
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Feb 20, 2011 2:33:01 GMT -5
No. Some Hispanic scholars have said as much since the first "Giant Head" displaying wide nose and thick lips was unearthed. Keep in mind that most but not all Giant Heads have those features. Giant Olmec HeadsOlmec Colossal Heads Is this something new for mainstream museums & talks about the Olmec culture ? Any way, I live in a city with a huge latino, Mexican population , so the exhibit is being geared towards this community & it's link to Mexico !
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Post by nebsen on Feb 20, 2011 3:51:42 GMT -5
deyoung.famsf.org/ Here is the link for those that want to check it out. City San Francisco Ca.. there is a large vibrant latino population here in the Bay Area. Yes, I'm aware that all the stone heads do not look African, some more Indian to Asian looking esp. the the masks. I remember seeing Ivan Van Sertima in the 80's doing a lecture "They Came Before Columbus", at the time his history of the Americas was very controversial to say the least. Than in July 1996 Time magazine did a piece (archeology) which I still have titled "Mystery Of The Olmec" by Michael D. Lemonick . This is some of what was wrote in the article at the time. "Asian hunter gathers who crossed into the Americas at least 12, 000 years ago". "But archaeologist don't know what transformed a society of farmers into a class-based social structure of the Olmec." " Olmec style human figures typically have squarish facial features with full lips, a flat nose,pronounced jowls & slating eyes reminiscent at least to early travelers in the region of African or Chinese peoples." " There were probably a number of different populations forming groups that rose & fell over time & shifted alliances. "There is still hope that archaeologist can solve this mystery, as well as a dozens of other unanswered questions about the Olmec" So, I will have to go to this exhibit to see what new information concerning the Olmec , to see how far they have come, at least they do mention Africa as a possible root influences. Will the mystery ever be solved , or does the establishment want it to remain a mystery ?
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Post by clydewin98 on Feb 20, 2011 12:50:02 GMT -5
There is no secret about the Olmecs. Eurocentrists know that the Olmec do not appear in Mexico until after 1200BC.
Some researchers claim that I am wrongly ruling out an “indigenous revolution” for the origin of the Olmec civilization. This is their opinion—the archaeological evidence, not I, suggest that the founders of the Olmec civilization were not “indigenous” people.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement”Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”.
M. Coe, writing in Regional Perspective on the Olmecs (1989), (ed.) by Sharer and Grove, observed that “ on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Richard A. Diehl The Olmecs:America’s first civilization (2005), wrote “ The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among the local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Pool (17-18), in Olmec Archaeology and early MesoAmerica (2007), argues that continuity exist between the Olmec and pre-Olmec cultures in Mexico “[even]though Coe now appears to favor an autochthonous origin for Olmec culture (Diehl & Coe 1995:150), he long held that the Olmec traits appeared at San Lorenzo rather suddenly during the Chicharras phase (ca 1450-1408 BC) (Coe 1970a:25,32; Coe and Diehl 1980a:150)”.
Pool admits (p.95), that “this conclusion contrasts markedly with that of the excavators of San Lorenzo, who reported dramatic change in ceramic type and argued on this basis for a foreign incursion of Olmecs into Olman (Coe and Diehl 1980a, p.150).”
The evidence presented by these authors make it clear that the Olmec introduced a unique culture to Mesoamerica that was adopted by the Mesoamericans. As these statements make it clear that was no continuity between pre-Olmec cultures and the Olmec culture.
Prior to the Olmec the Pre-Classic cultures were founded by Blacks.
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Post by nebsen on Feb 20, 2011 18:44:56 GMT -5
Clyde Winters ,
Thanks for your feedback concerning the Olmec culture. I know you have been one of the leading voice's pointing to a African root for the Olmec civilization. But my question is, if you say in your opening sentence "There is no secret about the Olmecs. Eurocentrist know that the Olmec do not appear in Mexico until after 1200 BC."
So why all the subterfuge around the Olmec culture & civilization ? Can you tie all the lose ends together for more of a wholistic view of this ancient mesoamerican civilization, or point to books & authors that do ?
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Post by clydewin98 on Feb 21, 2011 18:04:24 GMT -5
Eurocentrists deny an African influence and origin in relation to the Olmec to support their contention that Africans do not have a history. The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact: 1) both groups used jade to make their tools. 2) both groups made large stone heads. Here is an African head dating back to the same period. 3) The Mande came to Mexico in boats from the Sahara down the ancient Niger River that formerly emptied in the Sahara or they could have made their way to the Atlantic Ocean down the Senegal River. 4) The Olmec writing points back to a Mande origin in Africa. . 5) Olmec skeletons that are African. 6) Similar white, and red-and-black pottery. 7) Introduction of the 13 month 20 day calendar. 8) Mayan adoption of the Mande term for writing. 9)Mande religious and culture terms adopted by Mayan people.
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Post by clydewin98 on Feb 21, 2011 18:08:28 GMT -5
You can not compare contemporary Native Americans to the Olmecs because they have mixed with African slaves and therefore look similar to the African Olmecs. The only way you can get a picture of the original native Americans is to look at the mayan art. the classical Mayan people when compared to the Olmec do not have African features. Olmec Mayan People The Maya do not look like the Olmec.
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Post by clydewin98 on Feb 21, 2011 18:19:23 GMT -5
When the Olmecs arrived in Mexico they would not have been seen as a strange ethnic group.This is because there were already Mexican Blacks, when the Mande speaking Olmecs landed in Mexico between 1400-1200 BC. The Olmecs were not the first Africans to create a civilization in Mexico. These Africans came from the ancient Sahara and West Africa. Africans founded many of the earliest civilizations in the New World. We do not know when these Blacks arrived in the Americas. Scientists theorize that over 5000 years ago a group of African settlers sailing along the West African coast, in their papyrus trading vessels were caught in a storm and drifted aimlessly out to sea. In the Atlantic ocean they were captured by the South Equatorial current and carried across the Atlantic towards the Americas. We can assume that due to the ability of these explorers to navigate by the stars they were probably able to make a return trip to West Africa. Much of West Africa 5000 years ago was unoccupied. This means that the populations that later moved into West Africa were living in Middle Africa,and the Sahara. These people due to a different climate in the Sahara at this time traveled from community to community by sea. It seems logical to assume that one of these Paleo-African groups travelled down the long extinct rivers of Middle Africa and sailed out into the Atlantic Ocean and was carried to the Americas by the powerful currents found in the Atlantic Ocean. Mexico and Central America were centers of African civilization 5000 years ago. In Belize , around 2500 B.C., we see evidence of agriculture. The iconography of this period depicts Africoids. And at Izapa in 1358 B.C., astronomer-priests invented the first American calendar. In addition numerous sculptures of blacks dating to the 2nd millennium B.C, have been found at La Venta, Chiapas, Teotihuacan and Tlatilco. Chiapas Blacks The African voyagers to the New World came here in papyrus boats. A stone stela from Izapa, Chiapas in southern Mexico show the boats these Africans came in when they sailed to the Americas. These boats were carried across the Atlantic ocean to Mexico and Brazil, by the North Equatorial current which meets the Canaries Current off the Senegambian coast. It is interesting to note that papyrus boats are still being built in West Africa today. The earliest culture founded by Blacks in Mexico was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex. During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels. The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico. In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement “Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”. M. Coe (1989), observed that “on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”. Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46). Cherla There continues to be no evidence that Olmec civilization originated in Mexico. R.A. Diehl, in The Olmecs (Thames & Hudson, 2004) wrote that “The identity of these first Olmecs remain a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 B.C. to resolve the issue” (p.25).
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Post by nebsen on Feb 22, 2011 18:39:53 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeOb9qyu73Q&feature=feedfHere is a video I found on You-Tube that I felt did a good job in giving information about the Olmec & the Pan African perspective. Now I know it is just a video, but again I felt it addressed in a wholistic fashion some elements that have been missing from this topic. Although there is no DNA evidence here, only a logical flow that makes good sense to me. Also their is an important message in this video, some might disagree with it, but it is worth considering.
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Post by nebsen on Feb 22, 2011 19:02:23 GMT -5
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Post by clydewin98 on Feb 22, 2011 22:46:47 GMT -5
I have made these videos on the Olmec that I believe you may find interesting
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Post by near on Feb 23, 2011 0:06:37 GMT -5
I have made these videos on the Olmec that I believe you may find interesting Hey. Your videos are very nice, what do you use to make/edit them?
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Post by nebsen on Mar 1, 2011 22:20:17 GMT -5
" Africans have many phenotypic variation & genetic variation too. Some populations may resemble each other in terms of phenotype,but not in genetics , is another issue". Shomarka Keita
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Post by quetzalcoatl on Aug 19, 2015 17:20:36 GMT -5
For years, scholars, who have actually done research and excavations in the Olmec area and other Mesoamerican scholars, have agreed that the Gulf Olmecs were a local development that began hundreds of years before 1200 B.C. Below I quote some of the key researchers in this area. I quote enough to get a context and evaluate partial quotations elsewhere. I also provide full bibliographic citations.
Grove, D.C. 1993. “Olmec” Horizons in Formative Period Mesoamerica: Diffusion or Social Evolution?” In Rice, D. S. ed. Latin American Horizons. Washington, DC: Dumbarton Oaks.
Pye, J.E. and Pye, M.E. 2000 “The Pacific Coast and the Olmec,” in Clark, J.B. and. Pye, M.E, eds., Olmec Art and Archaeology in Mesoamerica pp. 217-251 Washington: National Academy of Art
Diehl, R. A. and M. D. Coe 1995 “ Olmec Archaeology,” in The Olmec world Ritual and Rulership Princeton, NJ: Art Museum, Princeton University.
Benson, E. P. 1996. “History of Olmec Investigations.” In Olmec Art of Ancient Mexico edited by Benson, E. P. and de la Fuente, pp. 17-27. Washington: National Gallery of Art.
Pye, J.E. and Pye, M.E. 2000 “Introducing Olmec Archaeology,” in Clark, J.B. and Pye, M.E. eds., Olmec Art and Archaeology in Mesoamerica pp. 9-17 Washington: National Academy of Art
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