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Post by anansi on Jun 9, 2012 15:43:06 GMT -5
NIAMEY (Reuters) - An advance party of European military and civilian security advisors has arrived in northern Niger in a mission brought forward due to deepening fears over the threat of terrorism from neighboring Mali, Nigerien officials said. No details were given by the European Union, but the EU has previously said it had ear-marked 150 million euros ($187 million) to improve security across the Sahel, where the rebel take-over of Mali's north has bolstered al Qaeda's North Africa wing. Niger is a major uranium exporter and has been the most vocal of countries in the region calling for a swift military intervention to tackle the security threat. "We have more than 30 European military and civilian experts who are looking at the security situation in the north," a senior Nigerien military officer told Reuters, asking not to be named. The official said the experts had deployed to Niger's Agadez region as part of the EU's plans to provide counter-terrorism training and advice to Nigerien forces. "There is no question of a foreign base being set up." Mali's March 22 coup precipitated the fall of the north to a mix of secular and Islamists rebels, who now control a desert region the size of France at the heart of the Sahara. The rebel takeover has emboldened al Qaeda's North Africa wing, AQIM, as well as other foreign militants, including Nigerian militants from Boko Haram. But the coup has also meant donors, led by the United States and the EU, have suspended non-humanitarian assistance in Mali, which was at the heart of efforts to tackle the influence of fighters linked to al Qaeda and organized crime. Western nations see Niger, Mauritania and Algeria as key players in improving regional security. West Africa's regional bloc ECOWAS says a force is on standby but it is expected to seek a United Nations mandate at the Security Council before moving. Karidio Mahamadou, Niger's defense minister, said there were instructors in the country as part of bi-lateral agreements with the U.S., France and Algeria but any presence was temporary. A defense ministry official, who also asked not to be named, said that the EU mission would be in place by the end of July, several months ahead of schedule. "Initially, the mission had been planned for September but because of the deteriorating security situation in the region, preparations were accelerated," he said. Earlier this week, Niger's President Mahamadou Issoufou that Afghan and Pakistani jihadis were training recruits for Islamist groups in northern Mali. ($1 = 0.8021 euros) news.yahoo.com/eu-security-experts-niger-amid-sahel-fears-194632662.html
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Post by wisdomisawesome23 on Jun 9, 2012 23:47:33 GMT -5
Why are African leaders so gullible? Africom US Africa Command is setting the stage for some major chaos in Africa. The coup would've never happened in Mali if it weren't for that stupid Africom trained Lieutenant Amadou Konare
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Post by anansi on Jun 9, 2012 23:59:50 GMT -5
Why are African leaders so gullible? Africom US Africa Command is setting the stage for some major chaos in Africa. The coup would've never happened in Mali if it weren't for that stupid Africom trained Lieutenant Amadou Konare I don't know of the coup would have happened or not but this willingness to have foreign troops on your soil is unsettling.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 11, 2012 16:06:58 GMT -5
Actually the coup in Mali and the establishment of autonomous Azawad was predicated on the relationships between the Kels (Tuareg) and the non-Afrisan speakers of the entire western Sahel region over the entire course of their hundreds of years old interactions.
The Kels are predators only kept in check when strong Sahelian states dominated them. Each group cries racism as the cause of their conflicts.
Eg. recently four members of three Kels were murdered by Maliens (yes, the Kels in Mali do not consider themselves Maliens whom they label as "the blacks"). The incident was due to the four Kels attempt to sell the cattle to Maliens that were in fact stolen from the very Maliens they were trying to sell the cattle to.
The Kels say the murder was due to racism toward them "the whites'" by the Maliens "the blacks." The Kels like to present themselves as victims, all the while making pretend they are innocent of indiscriminant and ongoing predatory actions against Maliens.
In terms westerners can understand what happened was not racist. It was summary justice -- lynching of cattle rustlers like in the old west USA.
Two years ago a now deceased Kel leader in Mali predicted that Kel mercenaries serving in Libya would foment violent political agitation when returning to Mali with weaponry obtained from Qaddafi and he was right.
It's too late now but Mali maybe should have allowed the Kels to administer their own autonomous governing regionin Azawad even though the Europeans carved out Mali as one nation in disregard to the ethnic realities of the region. African leaders thought they would prevent conflicts by holding onto the Euro imposed borders but time has proven this is not the case.
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Post by wisdomisawesome23 on Jun 11, 2012 21:08:28 GMT -5
^Tremendous food for thought.
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Post by anansi on Jun 11, 2012 23:01:00 GMT -5
Actually the coup in Mali and the establishment of autonomous Azawad was predicated on the relationships between the Kels (Tuareg) and the non-Afrisan speakers of the entire western Sahel region over the entire course of their hundreds of years old interactions. The Kels are predators only kept in check when strong Sahelian states dominated them. Each group cries racism as the cause of their conflicts. Eg. recently four members of three Kels were murdered by Maliens (yes, the Kels in Mali do not consider themselves Maliens whom they label as "the blacks"). The incident was due to the four Kels attempt to sell the cattle to Maliens that were in fact stolen from the very Maliens they were trying to sell the cattle to. The Kels say the murder was due to racism toward them "the whites'" by the Maliens "the blacks." The Kels like to present themselves as victims, all the while making pretend they are innocent of indiscriminant and ongoing predatory actions against Maliens. In terms westerners can understand what happened was not racist. It was summary justice -- lynching of cattle rustlers like in the old west USA. Two years ago a now deceased Kel leader in Mali predicted that Kel mercenaries serving in Libya would foment violent political agitation when returning to Mali with weaponry obtained from Qaddafi and he was right. It's too late now but Mali maybe should have allowed the Kels to administer their own autonomous governing regionin Azawad even though the Europeans carved out Mali as one nation in disregard to the ethnic realities of the region. African leaders thought they would prevent conflicts by holding onto the Euro imposed borders but time has proven this is not the case. But is has bigger and more terrible consequences than ethnic tensions for now truly foreign element is making itself felt by Al-Qaeda vs Africom Mali may in fact start looking like Somalia.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 12, 2012 9:00:13 GMT -5
People's lives, livelihoods, property, and possessions have been lost as well as being made refugees due to the escalation of racial conflict and a nation already having the 13th least HDI has been subjected to both coup and secession and off and on "sanctions" by regional state organization.
I think these are truly dire consequencese already and foreign elements have been involved since "independence". Look into the history of the so-called French Sudan and how Mali came to be, how it's government was set up, who was chosen/placed into what positions and who did not take active diplomatic roles and why each of them acted as they did. Also check the "Tuareg question" as it has always involved Algeria, Niger, Mauritania, and Libya border securities and hostilities and not Mali alone.
Can you please expand on Mali coming to look like Somalia re al~Qa'ida and Africom? What are the specific points you allude to by that outlook? BTW Somali's are among the northern insurgent elements in Mali. They are not the only foreigners the northerners have "invited" to their sand so the southerners should go it alone and not be "willing to have foreign troops" on their soil? Has any nation ever had a war without foreign troops on their land aiding them? And we all know foreign policy is dictated by national interest not altruism. Africom and the EU etc are not alone in that exploitation of involvement.
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Post by anansi on Jun 13, 2012 4:15:16 GMT -5
People's lives, livelihoods, property, and possessions have been lost as well as being made refugees due to the escalation of racial conflict and a nation already having the 13th least HDI has been subjected to both coup and secession and off and on "sanctions" by regional state organization. I think these are truly dire consequencese already and foreign elements have been involved since "independence". Look into the history of the so-called French Sudan and how Mali came to be, how it's government was set up, who was chosen/placed into what positions and who did not take active diplomatic roles and why each of them acted as they did. Also check the "Tuareg question" as it has always involved Algeria, Niger, Mauritania, and Libya border securities and hostilities and not Mali alone. Can you please expand on Mali coming to look like Somalia re al~Qa'ida and Africom? What are the specific points you allude to by that outlook? BTW Somali's are among the northern insurgent elements in Mali. They are not the only foreigners the northerners have "invited" to their sand so the southerners should go it alone and not be "willing to have foreign troops" on their soil? Has any nation ever had a war without foreign troops on their land aiding them? And we all know foreign policy is dictated by national interest not altruism. Africom and the EU etc are not alone in that exploitation of involvement. If the central government in Mali breaks down further and you have warring clans or political/religious interest vying for control plus foreign interest using the area in their own proxy wars that's when you have a Somali like existence,and such is very hard to come back from looking at very recent events including Afghanistan,Iraq,Somalia,at some point the locals have to come to the table and work out what lines need to be drawn or re drawn on a map,it took decades for the Sudanese to re draw their maps and after much blood letting not saying everything is all good,but maybe they can skip the blood shed part,with that being said it is extremely difficult for any government to cede territory. One more thing keep on eye on Nigeria especially the north.
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Post by africurious on Jun 13, 2012 11:07:16 GMT -5
Why is there always supposedly some euro or american behind almost every negative action taken by africans? Africans can't act negatively on their own? Are they not like everyone else?
The coup leader's coup had nothing to do with training by american military, unless there is some strong evidence that hasn't been shown. How is this military coup leader different from any of the many other coup leaders in africa and worldwide who are ambitious and power hungry and take advantage of a national crisis or disaffection with the current political regime and seize power. Of course, they proclaim they are defending/fighting for some national (or majority) cause when they take power because who takes power and says i took it cuz i wanna be rich and mighty. The coup occurred 2 weeks before the then current administration was due to step down so I find the coup highly suspect (especially in light of past military coups worldwide and particularly in africa).
Another thing I find highly suspect is the supposed al qaeda links in the region surrounding Mali. It's been suggested by some media outlets that it may be a front being pushed by the algerian gov't to get funding and arms from america. I'd add that it also plays into algerian national politics i.e. it's an attempt to scare algerians into not voting for islamists. And it seems like all islamist groups are being linked to al qaeda when it seems the most these groups share with al qaeda is that they are muslims who want sharia law. One of the Tuareg rebel groups is said to be linked to al qaeda but where is the substance to that claim? Wanting sharia law isn't the same as having an al qaeda viewpoint. Sharia law varies based on who is doing the interpretation and the traditions of the area. Also, al qaeda's goal is some fantasy war against america and the west. This tuareg group in question is probably more focused on regional issues. The same with boko haram--they seem to be focused on sorting out issues in nigeria.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Jun 13, 2012 20:44:35 GMT -5
People's lives, livelihoods, property, and possessions have been lost as well as being made refugees due to the escalation of racial conflict and a nation already having the 13th least HDI has been subjected to both coup and secession and off and on "sanctions" by regional state organization. I think these are truly dire consequencese already and foreign elements have been involved since "independence". Look into the history of the so-called French Sudan and how Mali came to be, how it's government was set up, who was chosen/placed into what positions and who did not take active diplomatic roles and why each of them acted as they did. Also check the "Tuareg question" as it has always involved Algeria, Niger, Mauritania, and Libya border securities and hostilities and not Mali alone. Can you please expand on Mali coming to look like Somalia re al~Qa'ida and Africom? What are the specific points you allude to by that outlook? BTW Somali's are among the northern insurgent elements in Mali. They are not the only foreigners the northerners have "invited" to their sand so the southerners should go it alone and not be "willing to have foreign troops" on their soil? Has any nation ever had a war without foreign troops on their land aiding them? And we all know foreign policy is dictated by national interest not altruism. Africom and the EU etc are not alone in that exploitation of involvement. If the central government in Mali breaks down further and you have warring clans or political/religious interest vying for control plus foreign interest using the area in their own proxy wars that's when you have a Somali like existence,and such is very hard to come back from looking at very recent events including Afghanistan,Iraq,Somalia,at some point the locals have to come to the table and work out what lines need to be drawn or re drawn on a map,it took decades for the Sudanese to re draw their maps and after much blood letting not saying everything is all good,but maybe they can skip the blood shed part,with that being said it is extremely difficult for any government to cede territory. One more thing keep on eye on Nigeria especially the north. OK, but what I see in Mali is a clean north/south break. Azawad as a Kel nation is already a reality since provisional self government is a fact with Gao the provisional state capital. I don't see any number of "warlords" each vying for their own "feifdoms." It is true that other non-Touareg factions are in Azawad and they have nothing to do with Tamasheq tradition and culture. Maybe they are part of a proxy war, as you say, between France and Qatar. "Locals" have been at the table for decades in Mali on the "Touareg question." Whatever Maliens have agreed to has never been enough for the Kels. This is why Azawad is now a state instead of just a name for Kel populated regions in the north. The coup ousted president sat at the table and made his offerings too but Kel insurgency continued and many many Maliens got fed up with Kels receiving concessions but continuing to play victim and perpetrate armed violence against Mali. Not efficiently arming the government's troops to handle rebels was the last straw and signaled the southern coup. Northerners were going to secede at some point and saw the coup as a strategic time to go forward. Countries are no longer isolated entities, if they ever were. There are those "locals" who'd like to see no involvement by ECOWAS, the EU, the UN, Algeria, Qatar, etc. but that's a non-viable fantasy. As long as the Kels don't see any illegality in their one-sided seceding from Mali and have declared the nation-state of Azawad within the sovereign territory of Mali then there will be an international legal basis for military intervention by Mali and whatever allies Mali recognizes to return Azawad to Mali.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Aug 27, 2012 18:41:45 GMT -5
Although the following article has nothing to do with this thread's title I'm placing it here due to relevancy of themes presented here. North Mali residents ready to resist Islamist groups By Serge Daniel | AFP – Tue, Aug 14, 2012
Residents of Gao, one of the three main towns in northern Mali occupied by armed Islamists since late March, are fighting back against radicals who brutally apply strict sharia law. The stoning to death of an unwed couple, the amputation of the hand of a thief, whippings for "illegitimate" couples and people who smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol have been among the harsh punishments meted out by the Islamists, who claim ties with Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). In Gao, near the border with Niger, hundreds of residents, mainly youths, have taken their lives in their hands several times since May to oppose hardline tactics, initially because they were banned from watching television and playing football.
Young members of a self-defense group walk in a street of Gao on July 17, 2012. Six Malian self-defence groups have joined forces to oust Islamist militants who have seized control of the country's northern half for almost four months. (AFP Photo/Issouf Sanogo) One week ago, people again took to the streets in a successful protest to stop the Islamists cutting the hand off a thief, then to protect a radio show host from being beaten up for reporting the first demonstrations against the amputation. "At this rate, the people are going to chase out the Islamists with their bare hands," said Soumaila Kante, a young sociologist in Gao. But three days later, it was at Ansongo, a nearby town, that for the first time since the occupation of northern Mali, the amputation of the hand of a thief took place in public. A local leader of the Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa (MUJAO), which is one of the two groups linked to AQIM, with Ansar Dine (Defenders of Islam), vowed to act soon in Gao itself. At first, the MUJAO fighters were well regarded in Gao, because they were opposed to Tuareg rebels of the National Movement for the Liberation of the Azawad (MNLA), which was accused of many cases of violence and theft in the town, before being chased out by MUJAO on June 27 after heavy fighting. "At the start, people really appreciated the Islamists because they respected us, contrary to the Tuareg rebels who were better known for brigandry than anything else," a nurse at Gao hospital said, before adding, "But you must never forget that here, people are stubborn and courageous." "There's no love lost" between the Islamists and the population now, said Abdoul Karim Maiga of the Collective of Inhabitants of the North of Mali (COREN). "With their sharia, (which imposes) cutting off hands, banning smoking, beating people, the esteem shown to the Islamists fell fast." Tiegoum Boubeye Maiga, a Malian journalist who comes from the Gao region, told AFP that the town has always been "restless". "I'm not surprised that it's taken the lead in challenging the Islamists, because there are limits that should not be crossed." He added that "in northern Mali, it's always been Gao that takes the leads in revolts, before they spread. It was Soni Ali Ber, first emperor of Gao (1464-1493) who freed Timbuktu from the yoke of the Tuaregs." The bravura of Gao's residents has set a trend for action in other parts of the north, notably at Goudam, south of Timbuktu, where to show their disapproval of the behaviour of the Islamists, inhabitants burned part of a building they were occupying, then prevented them from praying in a local mosque. The Islamists made a great effort to hand out gifts when the holy fasting month of Ramadan arrived, but their strict application of sharia is hard to stomach for the local people. The populations of the three main occupied towns -- Gao, Timbuktu and Kidal -- are currently trying to form a "coalition of indigenous people of the north" against those they see as "the invaders". "We resisted the Tuaregs, we're going to resist the Islamists by all possible means, if they blindly want to enforce the full rigour of the sharia among us," said a former senior adminstrative official in Goudam who asked not to be named and who added, "Ours is a land of Islam, not for Islamists."
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Post by africurious on Sept 11, 2012 21:34:40 GMT -5
So the coup was supposedly because the elected gov wasn't giving enough support to the army to fight the rebels in the north but the rebels have taken over major parts of the north for months now and the coup leaders have yet to do anything? As I said before, the coup wasn't about the rebellion but a power grab by opportunistic and ambitious officers in the military. I'm sure they're living it up running Mali behind the veneer of that paper civilian gov they set-up.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Sept 12, 2012 0:30:52 GMT -5
Acquiring hi-tech arms and desert warfare training is not the way things have gone and even if it were it would take more than a few months to accomplish just those two aims.
The rebels for a separate secular state Azawad were defeated by the faction for a single Malien state but under strict sharia law back at the start of the summer. That fact altered the situation from the original "racial"/ethnic conflict. It is now an Islamist civilization vs any "Other" civilization struggle as elsewhere in the world.
Though new to the EuroWest since the time of the Crusades and the Reconquest, it has been ongoing in the Sahel over the last 1000 years. Their first Islamists would've been the al~Murabitun and their allies from Tekrur. The latest Islamists (before Ansar ud~Diyn) were the various pre-French Fulani/Tukuler emirate jihads. Ironically, it's primarily Fulani and Songhai racist groups Ganday Koy and Ganda Iso affiliated youth who are now arming and receiving unofficial government military training against the Islamists of today.
Anyway let's hope yesterday's border incident with Mauritania has no ill effect on ongoing negotiations between the government and Ansar ud~Diyn. Military action by the south against the north is as likely to be about as successful as other regions in Africa and Asia where Islamists are waging their war of the civilizations, i.e., nil.
As mighty as EuroWest war machinery is, the Islamist at oneness with the terrain decidedly favors them. And they have religious fervor fueling them and that's much more unshakeable than the money and benefits which is the only morale making incentive any government troops have behind them.
Far in the past the emperors of Mali and Songhai deployed empire loyal Tuareg against any northern insurrectionists. For any desert conflict Mali's government would be wise to place pro-government Tuareg militias in the lead of any forces set to retake the northern non-urban areas.
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Post by africurious on Sept 12, 2012 9:48:19 GMT -5
Desert warfare training? So they've been fighting tuareg rebellions on and off since the '80s and don't know how to fight in the desert? Yea ok. And they haven't been able to get weapons from america (or europe) who are eager to end the islamic radicals inthe sahel?
Mali doesn't even need tuareg militia to join their side (though this is preferable) to kick the rebels out of places like gao and timbuktu. The residents there are against the rebels and so will avoid giving the rebels material support as much as they can. In cases where there is a military from a centralized power seeking to defeat a guerrilla-type military who are trying to kick them out, one of the main difficulties is that the resident population supports the insurgents. This has been demonstrated again and again in recent examples such as the algerian war, vietnam and afganistan but one could go back further and use the example of spain when it was occupied by napoleon. So the desert terrain may favor the islamic fanatics and tuaregs but there is far more to the fighting than the terrain.
The coupists won't even agree to have african countries give them military support and rescinded their original request for battalions from neighboring countries to come in and help them. Man, please, the coupists are full of it. [Edit: the coupists have indeed agreed to allow ecowas troops into Mali] Obviously they couldn't have mopped up the entire territory captured by the rebels in only a few months but what have they done? And the military just melts away and allowmajor population centers to be swalloped up after they supposedly took over so they could give the rebels a better fight? Ha, they're not fooling me with that b.s.
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Post by africurious on Sept 12, 2012 9:56:35 GMT -5
And, the murabitun and fulani jihadists seem tame compared to these modern fanatics. Unless i'm missing something and you can point out where i'm wrong. Wanting to conquer territory and institute islamic law is not the same as these al quaeda types who are so fanatical and severe it's ridiculous. These fanatics do crap like cut off the fingers of smokers and try to institute some wahabist type of nonsensiscal sharia that is alien to the ppl of the region. Actually, they are worse than the wahabies. They even want to stop ppl watching tv and playing soccer. Ridiculous!
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