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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Oct 28, 2015 12:43:57 GMT -5
A vibrant discussion about traditional African Beliefs and apparently non African belief systems started on another thread moved to here.
Read more: egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2068/spiritual-beliefs-african-christianity-judaism?page=2#ixzz3qUJ6AF21We pick up from here. @ t-teacher Your concept of what ancient Hebrews condoned as sexually permitted is warped by your Abrahamic religion lens. Xianity and Islam may have ripped off Hokmei Yisrael but Xianity is Greek mythologic and is antipathetic to the life and teachings of Abraham Abenu as I've thoroughly outlined on ES not long ago. Rabban Gamaliel gave Saul/Paul the mandate to separate adherents to Yesh"u from the Am Yisrael by introducing concepts inimical and revolting to all first century sects of Judaeans. Anyway, even the later Jewish rabbis acknowledge a marriage occurs as soon as the glans is in the vestibule though they frown on marriage via intercourse. Divorce, in effect, was resulted when a different penis did the same.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Oct 28, 2015 17:07:34 GMT -5
@ t-teacher Your concept of what ancient Hebrews condoned as sexually permitted is warped by your Abrahamic religion lens. Xianity and Islam may have ripped off Hokmei Yisrael but Xianity is Greek mythologic and is antipathetic to the life and teachings of Abraham Abenu as I've thoroughly outlined on ES not long ago. Rabban Gamaliel gave Saul/Paul the mandate to separate adherents to Yesh"u from the Am Yisrael by introducing concepts inimical and revolting to all first century sects of Judaeans. Anyway, even the later Jewish rabbis acknowledge a marriage occurs as soon as the glans is in the vestibule though they frown on marriage via intercourse. Divorce, in effect, was resulted when a different penis did the same. I am not the one who coined the term Abrahamic. It is a common term used in theological circles to describe the big 3. As they all pretty much revere Abraham or claim descent from the Abrahamic line in some way, they are linked. Jesus was a Jew and although he never intended to start a new religion, he is the one Xians as you call them follow as they claim he descended from the line of David. In addition to that they have annexed the Hebrew scriptures, (or mistranslations thereof) and added to it their own, thus the Old and New Testaments. The writers of the gospels etc also refer to the Hebrew scriptures in attempt to lend validity to their doctrines, (although closer inspection shows that they often misinterpreted, took thing out of context or flat out changed things around. A good example is the references to the passages in Isaah foretelling the birth of a child. They say virgin, when in fact it only say young woman. Further more it dealt with imminent invasion of the Assyrians, not the birth of a child 800 some odd years later). Islam also claims connection to Abraham through Ishmael. For these reasons, they are referred to as Abrahamic religions. Now I fully agree with you that although Xianity may have started out as a Jewish sect, what it ended up as was something very far removed. You are very much on the mark when you point out that there is a whole lot of Greco Roman mythology mixed in there. For one thing, the concept of a hell to me is nothing more than the concept of Tarterus and the underworld. Jews do not believe in a hell, nor do they believe in a devil. As a matter of fact, there is a growing number of Christian theologians who are moving away from the old dogmas and telling the truth about a lot of the ideas that are considered basic teachings: For anyone interested in delving deeper, they may also want to just look up some videos on youtube as to why Jews don't consider Jesus the messiah. Although I do believe in a higher power, for want of a better term, I am of the opinion that there is no one belief system nor group of scriptures which can be called "The Truth", "The Word of God". I believe that all spiritual systems, including my own, are man made. These are different systems that humans have created to get in touch with and understand something which we feel is greater than ourselves. This is why although I may not agree with, Jew, Muslims or Christians or anyone else for that matter on any point, I don't have a right to slander them or try to change them. The only thing I ask, personally, is that I be shown the same respect. So the reason I challenge the statements in this thread is not because I believe in Islam preset, but because it is just plain wrong to treat other people this way. I would urge the author of this thread to follow the advise of Jesus and do on to others as he would have them do onto him, in other words, speak to him in a respectful tone, not with slander and insults. I can't answer the reason why he has such a hang up on this topic, (though I have my suspicions), but I would just say there are many people out there who claim that Jesus was a homosexual and they have all kinds of quotes and what have you to support their claims. Doesn't mean any of it is true. At the end of the day, it's about mutual respect and it's the lack of ability on the part of many religious folk, especially those with a penchant for evangelizing that has caused many to become either atheists or agnostics. In Europe the Churches are all dying out as most people find them to be irrelevant with the realities of the needs in their lives. I personally don't think we need the threat of an angry deity to be moral and responsible human beings.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Oct 30, 2015 23:12:08 GMT -5
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Post by samuel on Nov 2, 2015 10:45:55 GMT -5
What I find interesting is why so many black Americans. Usually in prison, wish to join Islam in the first place. As if Islam is the black mans religion. Don't they know the first Christian countries on earth were in Africa? Africa was Christian way before Europe was. It's like they believe that Christianity is anti black and racist. Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X and Louis Farrrakhan ran around preaching Islam to black people as if Muslims were the only humans who weren't racist. In Ethiopia Christ was portrayed as black. Egypt (at that point no longer sub Saharan) was the first Christian country on the planet.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 2, 2015 14:57:53 GMT -5
What I find interesting is why so many black Americans. Usually in prison, wish to join Islam in the first place. As if Islam is the black mans religion. Don't they know the first Christian countries on earth were in Africa? Africa was Christian way before Europe was. It's like they believe that Christianity is anti black and racist. Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X and Louis Farrrakhan ran around preaching Islam to black people as if Muslims were the only humans who weren't racist. In Ethiopia Christ was portrayed as black. Egypt (at that point no longer sub Saharan) was the first Christian country on the planet. Christianity is stil alien to the indigenous forms of African spirituality. The forms of christianity brought to the west were Western European practices and were closely tied to the experiences of slavery and segregation. Islam at the time seemed like an escape from the legacy of oppression and that's why so many gravitated to it. It was also attractive, because unlike protestant or catholic religions, Islam explicitly declared that all people were equal regardless of color, race, financial status. For people who only experienced discrimination from the church, not even allowed to worship in the same building, a religion where all were welcomed and prayed shoulder to shoulder, it was very liberating. Today however, many people have become familiar with the West African derived practices of Ifa, Candoble, Lucumi and Voudun. While many of these practices had to hide behind Catholicism in the past, today, they are shedding the catholic veneer and making contact with the practitioners in Africa. More and more are opting to follow these traditional African based practices instead of Islam or Christianity.
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Post by samuel on Nov 2, 2015 15:07:42 GMT -5
I love Ancient Egyptian religion. I love it that they worship animals and believe that animals have souls. Something not found in Judeo Christian and Islam. Didn't they give the death penalty if you killed a cat? Very interesting. From everything I have read by even the most racist scholars and historians they believed that AE religion was from Africa.
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Post by anansi on Nov 2, 2015 19:19:04 GMT -5
What I find interesting is why so many black Americans. Usually in prison, wish to join Islam in the first place. As if Islam is the black mans religion. Don't they know the first Christian countries on earth were in Africa? Africa was Christian way before Europe was. It's like they believe that Christianity is anti black and racist. Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X and Louis Farrrakhan ran around preaching Islam to black people as if Muslims were the only humans who weren't racist. In Ethiopia Christ was portrayed as black. Egypt (at that point no longer sub Saharan) was the first Christian country on the planet. Islam is as legitimate a Blackmans religion as any other, they helped in the crafting and spreading of it from it's inception both within and outside Africa for centuries, yes they along with Christianity clashed with many other forms of African spirituality, most folks tend to look at the Arabian side of Islam which is literally right next door to Africa proper and forget the African side, and racism did affect some light skinned people who were Muslims read the works of Al-Jahiz sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/al-jahiz-al-fakhar-al-sudan
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Post by samuel on Nov 2, 2015 19:29:19 GMT -5
All I am saying is that Nation of Islam preaches that Christianity is racist and against blacks. If they even knew the history of Christianity and that it began IN Africa. The truth is that at its base. Christianity is black. Europe became Christian because of Constantine. But the church was based in Egypt. Egypt must have been at least mixed at that point. I've heard that St Augustine was black. And he was one of the major proponents for Christianity. He lived in Tunisia or some other North African country.
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Post by anansi on Nov 2, 2015 19:35:12 GMT -5
All I am saying is that Nation of Islam preaches that Christianity is racist and against blacks. If they even knew the history of Christianity and that it began IN Africa. The truth is that at its base. Christianity is black. Europe became Christian because of Constantine. But the church was based in Egypt. Egypt must have been at least mixed at that point. I've heard that St Augustine was black. And he was one of the major proponents for Christianity. He lived in Tunisia or some other North African country. Well time and context and who controlled it at any given time is important, in African hands with powerful kings and priest it could be a plus, in the hands of their opponents it could be a minus, the same with Islam. egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1896/christian-kingdoms-lands-blacksThree Black Catholic Popes
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 2, 2015 22:54:28 GMT -5
What I find interesting is why so many black Americans. Usually in prison, wish to join Islam in the first place. As if Islam is the black mans religion. Don't they know the first Christian countries on earth were in Africa? Africa was Christian way before Europe was. It's like they believe that Christianity is anti black and racist. Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X and Louis Farrrakhan ran around preaching Islam to black people as if Muslims were the only humans who weren't racist. In Ethiopia Christ was portrayed as black. Egypt (at that point no longer sub Saharan) was the first Christian country on the planet. Islam is as legitimate a Blackmans religion as any other, they helped in the crafting and spreading of it from it's inception both within and outside Africa for centuries, yes they along with Christianity clashed with many other forms of African spirituality, most folks tend to look at the Arabian side of Islam which is literally right next door to Africa proper and forget the African side, and racism did affect some light skinned people who were Muslims read the works of Al-Jahiz sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/al-jahiz-al-fakhar-al-sudanWell... It can't be denied the role Africans played in the birth of Islam. For one thing, some of the first covers were Africans, the first muezzin was Bilal. And when the community was in danger, he sent them to seek refuge in Ethiopia. I still don't see it as arising out of an African spirituality. The concept of only one right religion, the concept of a devil, an eternal hell and the motivation to make converts. I do agree that African Islam, specifically as practiced in West African countries such as Senegal are much different than the Wahabbi version now practiced in Saudia. However, I would argue that the reason is because they Africanized Islam rather Islam being African. In other words, they interpreted it through an African filter, they took it and customized it to make it fit with their world view.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 2, 2015 23:43:37 GMT -5
All I am saying is that Nation of Islam preaches that Christianity is racist and against blacks. If they even knew the history of Christianity and that it began IN Africa. The truth is that at its base. Christianity is black. Europe became Christian because of Constantine. But the church was based in Egypt. Egypt must have been at least mixed at that point. I've heard that St Augustine was black. And he was one of the major proponents for Christianity. He lived in Tunisia or some other North African country. Well... We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see christianity as borrowing a great deal from Greco-Roman religion. I don't deny that they borrowed certain aspects from Egyptian religion, but they also borrowed from Mithraism and European orthodoxy, particularly Catholicism, borrowed a lot from European pre christian traditions. Take for instance Easter, rabbits and eggs, what's African about that? Christmas, pine trees in the house, holly, nistel toe, a fat man driven by rain deer squeezing down your chimney leaving gifts... They coopted from every culture they came in contact with to make converts. But above all these, it's the concept of having exclusive access to the creator that I find so alien.
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Post by samuel on Nov 3, 2015 1:17:09 GMT -5
Where do we disagree at? I'm just giving my views on how i see it.
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Post by samuel on Nov 3, 2015 1:26:31 GMT -5
Yeah. That type of Christianity is obviously European. Christmas is actually the winter solstice. But you do know where the idea of a virgin mother with a baby child comes from don't you? Osiris and Isis with baby Horus. The whole father son and the Holy Spirit thing comes from Osiris, Horus and I forget the last one. But a ton of Judaism comes from Egyptian mythology. Look it up. You'll see
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Post by samuel on Nov 3, 2015 1:33:15 GMT -5
Christianity is very different from Egyptian religion and way of life though. In the beginning Christianity was about living in poverty and that this world doesn't matter. Similar to Buddhism. Whereas the Egyptians were very materialistic and loved wealth. Jesus preached that the meek shall inherit the earth. Egyptian tombs they brought all of their wealth with them. Jesus would have hated the ancient Egyptians. Will not hate but disapproved.
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Post by samuel on Nov 3, 2015 1:48:13 GMT -5
What I find interesting is why so many black Americans. Usually in prison, wish to join Islam in the first place. As if Islam is the black mans religion. Don't they know the first Christian countries on earth were in Africa? Africa was Christian way before Europe was. It's like they believe that Christianity is anti black and racist. Elijah Muhammed, Malcom X and Louis Farrrakhan ran around preaching Islam to black people as if Muslims were the only humans who weren't racist. In Ethiopia Christ was portrayed as black. Egypt (at that point no longer sub Saharan) was the first Christian country on the planet. Christianity is stil alien to the indigenous forms of African spirituality. The forms of christianity brought to the west were Western European practices and were closely tied to the experiences of slavery and segregation. Islam at the time seemed like an escape from the legacy of oppression and that's why so many gravitated to it. It was also attractive, because unlike protestant or catholic religions, Islam explicitly declared that all people were equal regardless of color, race, financial status. For people who only experienced discrimination from the church, not even allowed to worship in the same building, a religion where all were welcomed and prayed shoulder to shoulder, it was very liberating. Today however, many people have become familiar with the West African derived practices of Ifa, Candoble, Lucumi and Voudun. While many of these practices had to hide behind Catholicism in the past, today, they are shedding the catholic veneer and making contact with the practitioners in Africa. More and more are opting to follow these traditional African based practices instead of Islam or Christianity. Like you guys are always preaching to me ...Africa is not all the same. East Africa is completely different than west Africa. Christianity was more in line with East African. The Christianity that was brought from European colonization was just that. European Christianity. But at its base Christianity was an African religion. Maybe not what they believed in west Africa which from what I have learned was totemism and similar to AE religion. But certainly East African. Look up Prestor John on the Internet. He was a legendary Christian that was Ethiopian. This was during the crusades and Ethiopia was the only Christian country left after Islam came ravaging the area. They couldn't get into the interior of Ethiopia though. Ethiopia was from the very beginning a Judeo Christian country. Recent DNA analysis shows that they are closest to the Jews. What's really interesting is that they were not the same as Egyptians though. Egyptians were more like west Africans.
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