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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Nov 3, 2015 3:57:22 GMT -5
This topic surley deserves a thread of its own but since we're here already.
the West African ancestors of some Back Americans were Muslim. Offhand I recall diaries or somesuch writings by Ayyub and Suleiman two enslaved FulaniI Muslims.
In prison seems its the organization of ethnicity that counts. I just don't see any such thing as a Xian gang from any inmate organizations.
Language and culture barriers hinder the majority of Black Americans from converting to Orisha based spirituality even though a good bulk of their ancestors proffesedo the like.
People will gravitate to whatever spirituality their spirit intuits including non African ones like Buddhism and Krishna Hinduism.
Many will default to no Spirits neither divine nor ancestral but will manifest natural morality for its own sake.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 3, 2015 19:30:57 GMT -5
This topic surley deserves a thread of its own but since we're here already. the West African ancestors of some Back Americans were Muslim. Offhand I recall diaries or somesuch writings by Ayyub and Suleiman two enslaved FulaniI Muslims. In prison seems its the organization of ethnicity that counts. I just don't see any such thing as a Xian gang from any inmate organizations. Language and culture barriers hinder the majority of Black Americans from converting to Orisha based spirituality even though a good bulk of their ancestors proffesedo the like. People will gravitate to whatever spirituality their spirit intuits including non African ones like Buddhism and Krishna Hinduism. Many will default to no Spirits neither divine nor ancestral but will manifest natural morality for its own sake. I would say that more than a few were muslims. If you want an interesting book on the topic look up African Muslims in Antebellum America by Allen D. Austin. I think you're right about the language barrier as all the houses that I know of have a Cuban linage and the majority of information is still in Spanish. However, I think the greatest obstacle is that most people simply don't know it exists. That is starting to change though. I find that in major metropolitan areas such as Miami, New York, Chicago The Bay Area and LA it is growing more. Regarding the cultural aspect in the equation, most people are conditioned to believe in the concepts of one god heaven and hell . Orisha practice makes a lot of people nervous because of the the idea of many gods. The fact is that the orisha are not gods, but since there is no English equivalent to explain the concept, the closest we can get is "gods". Therefore, most people don't realize it is a monotheistic tradition. Apart from that, the world view is totally different from what they are use to. Islam on the other hand is a lot closer to what is familiar. There is a book, the concept of heaven and hell, the belief in the same prophets, even Jesus and the virgin Mary, only slight variations in their status. Buddhism has a lot more visibility and is very accessible. I'm not sure how many people have converted to Hinduism, but I have seen a few in my neighborhood. Although I personally believe in a higher power I do think one can live a moral life without such a belief. In fact some of the best christians I know are atheists. It just makes sense to have a moral society. It's obviously in all our best interests to have rules of social moral conduct. Like it or not, we are all interconnected so unless you're a complete sociopath, it's obvious that we have to look out for each other. A perfect example of this to me is a society like Japan. Their belief of right and wrong is not based on the concept of the supernatural but on the needs of creating a civil society. Many countries in Northern Europe are totally secular, a high percentage of the population atheist or agnostic and they have a very strong commitment to humanistic ideals. I think that ones moral compass should be guided by the concept of what is in the best interest to have a good life rather than fear of punishment by a supernatural being. I know we've steered off course, but I'm enjoying this end of the conversation much more.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 3, 2015 20:27:35 GMT -5
Christianity is stil alien to the indigenous forms of African spirituality. The forms of christianity brought to the west were Western European practices and were closely tied to the experiences of slavery and segregation. Islam at the time seemed like an escape from the legacy of oppression and that's why so many gravitated to it. It was also attractive, because unlike protestant or catholic religions, Islam explicitly declared that all people were equal regardless of color, race, financial status. For people who only experienced discrimination from the church, not even allowed to worship in the same building, a religion where all were welcomed and prayed shoulder to shoulder, it was very liberating. Today however, many people have become familiar with the West African derived practices of Ifa, Candoble, Lucumi and Voudun. While many of these practices had to hide behind Catholicism in the past, today, they are shedding the catholic veneer and making contact with the practitioners in Africa. More and more are opting to follow these traditional African based practices instead of Islam or Christianity. Like you guys are always preaching to me ...Africa is not all the same. East Africa is completely different than west Africa. Christianity was more in line with East African. The Christianity that was brought from European colonization was just that. European Christianity. But at its base Christianity was an African religion. Maybe not what they believed in west Africa which from what I have learned was totemism and similar to AE religion. But certainly East African. Look up Prestor John on the Internet. He was a legendary Christian that was Ethiopian. This was during the crusades and Ethiopia was the only Christian country left after Islam came ravaging the area. They couldn't get into the interior of Ethiopia though. Ethiopia was from the very beginning a Judeo Christian country. Recent DNA analysis shows that they are closest to the Jews. What's really interesting is that they were not the same as Egyptians though. Egyptians were more like west Africans. Well, like I said, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree and that's totally fine. I would say that Christianity has borrowed elements from aspects of certain African spiritual traditions, but as I said, it borrowed just as much and probably more from other non African pre christian traditions. This applies even to orthodox christianity such as the Coptic Church after all, they were part of the Roman Empire and Egypt and North Africa at that time were very cosmopolitan places. So because they were part of the Empire, they had absorbed the spiritual traditions of the Near East and parts of Europe and Greece and Rome. I think that to understand what became known as Christianity we have to take into consideration what was happening in the Empire prior to its development. People were searching for answers and there were a great deal of spiritual practices. In a lot of ways it was quite similar to the United States today. As for Ethiopia, it was not always christian. Despite the fact that the Coptic Church is the dominant and official religion, there are vestiges of the original pre christian traditions that survive to this day. The practice of Zar rituals exemplifies this. The basic concept is very similar to Orisha practice. The idea that nature is permitted by conscious energy and that humans should strive to maintain balance with them. I saw a documentary that looked at spirituality across Africa including how Africans incorporated their indigenous practices with Islam and christianity. If I find it again I'll post it.
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Post by samuel on Nov 3, 2015 20:52:53 GMT -5
What is it we disagree on? I can't tell because obviously I can't see your face. You're saying that Christianity isn't an African religion? Almost all Judeo Christian religions pre cursers were Ancient Egyptian in origin. You know this. Madonna and child? Isis and Horus? Put two and two together and it's obvious where Christianity comes from. Although the mother and child theme seems universal considering the Chinese way of saying hello. Ni Hao. The two characters for good are woman and child. But there are many other similarities between AE and Judeo Christian.
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Post by anansi on Nov 3, 2015 22:20:28 GMT -5
Well there maybe connections to older African spiritually going back to folks coming out of Africa and here Samuel may have a point, look at this
There is clear links to older African spirituality but they began to diverge so is it fair to claim those that diverged and gone in a separate direction African?? only in a broad sense imo.
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Post by samuel on Nov 4, 2015 9:59:41 GMT -5
I'm just wondering. Are people even aware that even in Europe in Eastern Orthodox Church. The icons of Madonna and child were portrayed as being black. This was in northern Eastern Europe!! Why didn't black Americans in Prison wish to join the Eastern Orthodox rather than Islam. It was the Muslims that came in and killed the original Egyptians who were black. The only reason why North Africa today is white was because of Muslims. Ethiopia was in constant war against Islam. Despite Ethiopia being e1b1b and what people term "dark skinned caucasoids" they are still sub Saharan. Obviously I am anti Islam because it's a war mongering religion. I was born and raised Jewish but if had to pick between Islam and Christianity I would pick Christian. Like I said Christianity at its base was African. It's only Muslim now because of how war mongering Islam is. I'm sure that 1000 years ago most people in Ethiopia would agree with me. From all of my Ethiopian friends they claim that their country is the most accepting of Muslims. Only because they have to be. They are surrounded by Muslim countries.
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Post by samuel on Nov 4, 2015 10:10:39 GMT -5
Islam preaches Hate. And at its base Christianity teaches love. Maybe not the form that Europe adopted but the original Christianity. You never read in the Qua ran love thy neighbor. It's "kill the infidels". Yeah everybody is equal all races are equal all social classes are equal. As long as you follow Islam. And pray 100 times a day. Then you are equal.
One of the things that makes Judaism interesting is that it is exclusive. It doesn't want new members. They are Gods chosen people. Which I find equally ridiculous. Only Islam and Christianity wants everybody to be the same. It's the methods they employ to reach that goal though. Jews grow up believing that they have to be better than everybody else. Smarter, richer, different than everybody else. This is what gets them in trouble throughout history. They exclude people and they believe they are better than. This mentality that separates them from the normal population
And like black people they show off their wealth. All the rich black people I know always wear the most showy displays of wealth. They are very similar in this area. Only difference is that black people are generous and Jews are greedy. Whenever I need money I always ask my black friends because they have hard time saying "no". Which I feel bad about. They (Jews) take wives the color of the status quo which is today blond blue eyed women. And in Solomon's time was pharaohs daughter. Which obviously would have been an African type.
Christianity is a poor mans religion thus when the status quo is Christian like in old Europe showing wealth was considered dirty and unclean. I lived in France for 6 years and they would say that rich people in France hide the fact that they have wealth whereas Jews show it.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2015 12:31:11 GMT -5
Well there maybe connections to older African spiritually going back to folks coming out of Africa and here Samuel may have a point, look at this There is clear links to older African spirituality but they began to diverge so is it fair to claim those that diverged and gone in a separate direction African?? only in a broad sense imo. I would say that yes they evolved into something that was unAfrican, It isn't any different than the way we speak about humanity in general is it? If we look on the planet now we see humans on every continent. We know that humanity originated in Africa, but at a certain point, they stop being African and start being something else. So we could say that the concept of spirituality itself has its origins in Africa because it is a human expression, but it has since evolved into many practices and beliefs that are far removed from the original. In my opinion, the basic concepts of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, while having roots in Africa are very different than the traditions that are in Africa. This is why christians and muslim felt the need to replace those beliefs with their own. When they came, they didn't see a relationship with what they were preaching with what was there. They saw them as different. What has happened though in many cases is that Africans interpreted them through a local lens. Let me put it this way, the veneration of ancestors and spiritual nature entities that you will find in some African islamic traditions is not accepted by the rest of the orthodox muslim world. They want to stamp out these practices. For example Zar practitioners in Egypt are being suppressed. Beginning in the early 90's the fundamentalists started going into music stores and burning all the tapes of Zar music. ceremonies like this are held for the purposes of healing or to communicate with the spiritual entities who each have their distinct names, colors, implements, songs. These are shamanistic practices. They are found all across Africa including Morocco to Egypt and the Sudan down into Ethiopia and Kenya. There is no similarity in world view or practice with Islam or any type of orthodoxy christianity. They have more in common with each other than they do with orthodox church or mosque practices. Music, dance, trance, sacrifice etc. They are always led by a priest or priestess of the practice. Another difference is that women often play major roles. In Egypt the leader of a Zar house is called a kadia, don't know what they call a man, I think they might just call him a sheikh. But any way, as I said the world view is totally different. The followers may also be practicing muslims, (most times they are), or christians. Once again, it reflects an African world view where there is no exclusion of faiths. So for example, a Zar ceremony may be led by a christian, but you will find muslims there, or you will find christians there if the kadia is muslim. So for example in an Egyptian Zar, some of the entities who may present themselves could be christian. I'm not doing a good job of describing it here, I've talked about it in other threads before. But basically, I'd say unlike christianity, Islam and Judaism, traditional African practices have a world view in which there is no separation between the worlds. We are part of nature and the forces of nature are part of us, in us and in everything. Even inanimate objects are believed to have life force energy. In Yoruba traditions its ashe, in Morocco they call it baraka, don't know what they call it in Egypt. The aim is to be in balance with all the energies of nature within and around you. There are certain people who have developed the ability to communicate with entities and this is achieved through initiation ceremonies. The entitie establishes a relationship with that person to help them achieve this balance so that they can play a role in the community as a healer and after initiation there may be a period of apprenticeship to learn the different aspects of ceremonies, herbs etc to fulfill that role. During a cerimony the initiate may go into trace and channel an entity who will then communicate with people in attendance giving advice, messages etc. There is nothing like this in mainstream christianity or islam and they often call such things satanic even though these traditions have no belief in a devil. I think this sister can articulate it better than I can:
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2015 12:51:15 GMT -5
Islam preaches Hate. And at its base Christianity teaches love. Maybe not the form that Europe adopted but the original Christianity. You never read in the Qua ran love thy neighbor. It's "kill the infidels". Yeah everybody is equal all races are equal all social classes are equal. As long as you follow Islam. And pray 100 times a day. Then you are equal. HAve you read the entire Quran? The Quran speaks about tolerance just as much as Christianity does. There is no compulsion in religion, meaning, you can not force someone to convert, you are admonished not to insult the faith of others lest they insult you, you are admonished to treat others the way you wish to be treated etc. What people choose to do in the name of religion is a whole different thing. Yes there were wars in Islam but you have to look at it within the context of what was happening at the time. The community was being attacked and so they took up arms to protect themselves. So when it speaks of making war against the infidel, it's within that context. What happened after the death of the prophet was something altogether different. Remember, the early converts were sent to christian Ethiopia, not to make war, but for protection. Al though the gospels preach love thy neighbor, look at what those professing to be christians have done. So you have to make a distinction between what is in the written word, what people do and often times the context of what was written. For example, if you look in the Old Testament, you will see genocide, murder, slavery and all sorts of things. So if a person wanted to, and many have, you could justify genocide and slavery and all types of negative behavior based on scripture One of the things that makes Judaism interesting is that it is exclusive. It doesn't want new members. They are Gods chosen people. Which I find equally ridiculous. Only Islam and Christianity wants everybody to be the same. It's the methods they employ to reach that goal though. Jews grow up believing that they have to be better than everybody else. Smarter, richer, different than everybody else. This is what gets them in trouble throughout history. They exclude people and they believe they are better than. This mentality that separates them from the normal population And I would argue that this is one of the major ways they differ from traditional African practices. There is no concept that my practice or beliefs are better than your beliefs, nor that I am better than you because of my beliefs. It's open and accepting and allows me to look at what you believe and if I see something of benefit I can incorporate it. This is for example how the practices of a lot of West Africans evolved both on the continent and when they came to the Caribbean. And like black people they show off their wealth. All the rich black people I know always wear the most showy displays of wealth. They are very similar in this area. Only difference is that black people are generous and Jews are greedy. Whenever I need money I always ask my black friends because they have hard time saying "no". Which I feel bad about. Depends on the Jew and depends on the Black person...They (Jews) take wives the color of the status quo which is today blond blue eyed women. And in Solomon's time was pharaohs daughter. Which obviously would have been an African type. Christianity is a poor mans religion thus when the status quo is Christian like in old Europe showing wealth was considered dirty and unclean. I lived in France for 6 years and they would say that rich people in France hide the fact that they have wealth whereas Jews show it. It depends on the background of the person and the time period. Prior to the 20th century people in Europe who had money made a big show of it. Things started to change radically after the first World War. Conversely, people from poor backgrounds, regardless of religion often make big display when they come into money earning the term of derision "nouveau rich", or in America, "new money".
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Post by samuel on Nov 4, 2015 13:00:09 GMT -5
Actually it's the other way around. People in old Europe before the 20th century didn't show that had money only Jewish people did. People had POWER in old Europe but power back than didn't depend on how much money you had. It depended on who your connections were and how many soldiers your fiefdom had. Interesting that Africa worshiped ancestors. Same thing in Asia.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2015 13:18:10 GMT -5
I'm just wondering. Are people even aware that even in Europe in Eastern Orthodox Church. The icons of Madonna and child were portrayed as being black. This was in northern Eastern Europe!! Why didn't black Americans in Prison wish to join the Eastern Orthodox rather than Islam. Some, not all. Again, it has to do with the principle Al takruri mentioned, the barrier of culture and language. Just wasn't enough of them to make an impact for one and then again, which form of orthodoxy, Greek, Russian or Coptic? Egyptians didn't start emigrating in significant numbers till quite recentlyIt was the Muslims that came in and killed the original Egyptians who were black. Read your history. Egypt was not put to the sword when the Muslims conquered. There was no genocide in Egypt.The only reason why North Africa today is white was because of Muslims. North Africa may be a lot of things, but white is not one of them.... Ethiopia was in constant war against Islam. Not too sure about thatDespite Ethiopia being e1b1b and what people term "dark skinned caucasoids" they are still sub Saharan. Try telling some of them that.. Obviously I am anti Islam because it's a war mongering religion. What Islam actually teaches and what others have done in ti's name are two completely different things, just as what the gospels teach and what those professing to be christians have done in its name are two different things.I was born and raised Jewish but if had to pick between Islam and Christianity I would pick Christian. Once again, I'd say read your history. Jews have had a far easier time living under Muslims than they have Christians. When Isabella had her hissy fit and kicked all the Jews out of Spain, it was the Ottoman Sultan that welcomed many of them in. They were never forced to convert. Not saying they were treated with total equality, but it's the reason why up to the founding of the state of Israel there were always Jewish communities in Palestine Like I said Christianity at its base was African. It's only Muslim now because of how war mongering Islam is. The reason why most Afro Americans are christian today is because their christian masters told them convert or die. It's the same reason why most Mexicans and native Latin Americans are Christian. It was forced conversion. That is why for so long followers of my tradition had to pretend to be CatholicsI'm sure that 1000 years ago most people in Ethiopia would agree with me. From all of my Ethiopian friends they claim that their country is the most accepting of Muslims. Only because they have to be. They are surrounded by Muslim countries. And they both did everything they could to wipe out the followers of traditional beliefs. If you wanted to continue you had to accept either Islam or Christianity on some level so from my perspective. Let me put it to you this way, there are many christian communities in Africa today, not in 17th century Europe, but today, that I couldn't set foot into if I were honest about my beliefs because they would quite literally burn me alive for being a witch so.... When it comes to religious intolerance neither Judaism, Christianity or Islam can claim to be free of hatred. And even though traditional African beliefs do not discriminate based on spirituality, there are a lot of followers who are as crazy as bat shit who will kill you for all types of stupid reasons. unfortunately, n human group is free of irrationality. No matter what group you belong to, you gonna have somebody in the bunch that makes you look bad and that's just a fact. But when it comes to official doctrine, traditional African believes are free of concepts of exclusivity, but like I said, that still doesn't stop people from doing dumb things. Let me put it this way, an idiot is going to find a way to justify whatever they want to do no matter what, plain and simple.
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Post by samuel on Nov 4, 2015 13:37:05 GMT -5
But by that logic European traditional beliefs were wiped out by Christianity too. I'm guessing you could find a lot of similarities between traditional European and African beliefs. Remember that Africa was Christian before Europe was. In fact when you read about pre roman Britain such as Arthurian tales. You find how resistant they were to Christianity. They worshipped trees. The Romans called these people savages and barbarians.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2015 14:41:18 GMT -5
Actually it's the other way around. People in old Europe before the 20th century didn't show that had money only Jewish people did. People had POWER in old Europe but power back than didn't depend on how much money you had. It depended on who your connections were and how many soldiers your fiefdom had. Interesting that Africa worshiped ancestors. Same thing in Asia. I beg to differ. Have you ever looked at the way they dressed? During the reign of Elizabeth for example, there were laws that governed what a person could wear based on their class. Elizabeth may have been many things, but Jewish wasn't one of them. In fact, because of such laws, no matter how much money a Jewish merchant may have had, they would have been restricted by law as to what they could wear and it wasn't the really good stuff that the aristocracy had. Clothing was one of the ways you declared who you were. The mentality was definitely if you have it flaunt it. This is why in the 19th century it became so important to display your wealth, in your dress and in your home. Before the 20th century the name of the game was if you had it flaunt it, conspicuous consumption all the way Coco Chanel was the one who revolutionized fashion by making clothing more egalitarian and less flamboyant. By the 1920's the heavily jeweled and embroidered gowns with corsets and elaborate plumed hats were gone. It was a marked shift from the past due in large part to the Great War. Remember, this is when the Russian monarchs were overthrown and assassinated in 1918. A lot of the old social rules were challenged and as the population in general began to demand equal rights the aristocracy found it less tasteful to flaunt their wealth as they did in the past, if for no other reason than it was now dangerous to call too much attention to oneself. Add to that the stock market crash in the 20's followed by the Great Depression and it just became bad taste to speak of money and flaunt it. Today, you could be walking next to a millionaire and not know it because the trend is to blend in. Prior to the 20th century the ideal was to NOT blend in but declare that you were superior in every way.
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Post by samuel on Nov 4, 2015 14:50:48 GMT -5
Remember they sewed their own clothes back then. They didn't need wealth to buy cloths. They had it made for them. That took labor. I'm also speaking more about Middle Ages Europe. When chivalry was the norm. Pre Renaissance. Obviously you stated your social position.
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Post by truthteacher2007 on Nov 4, 2015 14:54:37 GMT -5
But by that logic European traditional beliefs were wiped out by Christianity too. I'm guessing you could find a lot of similarities between traditional European and African beliefs. Yes it was. That was in large part what the period of the witch burnings was all about. It was about the Church solidifying it's power. Wherever the monarchies were, there too was the Church. The Church was the power behind the throne. This was one of the motivating factors behind King Henry the 8th establishing the Church of England. When the Roman Empire embraced Christianity, they outlawed all non religious practices throughout the empire. It was at this time that the last temples in Egypt were closed and the remaining priest put to death. This was not just in Egypt, but everywhere. In fact the term pagan referred to the rural people because they were the last to give up their pre christian practices because of their isolation.
You are right in that early European practices had a lot in common with African practices. The reason for this is because they both revered nature as sacred, so although the individual practices may differ, the philosophies are similar. You also see this similarity with the shamanistic traditions across Asia and in the Americas. I felt very at home in Japan Remember that Africa was Christian before Europe was. The parts of Africa that belonged to the Roman Empire were Christian before the parts of Europe that weren't. When Christianity became the official religion of the Empire, it was applied equally to the European provinces as well. In fact when you read about pre roman Britain such as Arthurian tales. You find how resistant they were to Christianity. They worshipped trees. The Romans called these people savages and barbarians. It wasn't the trees they worshiped but the force which gave life to the trees. The Romans called everyone who were not Roman barbarians and savages as did the Greeks before them. This was due in large part because they resisted Roman domination for so long.
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