E1b1b is north african and not negroid...scientists says

[thamm1]

Every genetic study extant places the origins of haplogroup E either in Northeast Africa or in Eurasia. None associate the clade's origins directly with Negroid populations. Despite this, confusion (primarily among laypeople) seems to surround the haplogroup's population affinities. This mainly has to do with the fact that numerous (though not all) modern Negroid peoples carry the clade. This thread helps explain why they do, as well as how, when and through what mechanism(s) those Negroid peoples acquired haplogroup E in the first place from the Hamitic folk it originated with.

While many Negroid populations today carry haplogroup E lineages, this was not the case only a few centuries ago. This has to do with the fact that:

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJ11Jnc


1) The oldest Negroid skeletal remains that have ever been found are only about 12,000 years old i.e. tens of thousands of years younger than when the mutation that defines haplogroup E first arose.

"On the basis of genetic and archaeological data, black Africans seem to have radiated from a relatively small West African and possibly pygmy population within the last 20,000 years (Coon, 1962, pp. 651-656; Spurdle et al., 1994; Watson et al., 1996). The time and place of origin can be further narrowed down with linguistic data. Speakers of proto-Niger Congo broke up c. 10,000 BP and the oldest derived group appear to be proto-Mande speakers, whose descendants inhabit the Niger's headwaters near the Mali-Guinea border (Blench, 1984, pp. 128-129; Ehret, 1984; Murdock, 1959, pp. 44, 64-68)[...] Thus, black Africans were still absent from most of sub-Saharan Africa even within historic times. When the Egyptians began to build their pyramids, the peoples living to the south were scarcely darker in color. They were simply seen as uncivilized Egyptians. Thus, the civilized world initially encountered a much narrower range of human phenotypes than it would later on. This context shaped the intellectual worldview in its early stages, including theorizing on universal brotherhood. To a degree not easy to assess, we are heirs to notions of human sameness that were first conceived ‘before Africa became black’."

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJ3jaQr

[thamm1]

2) Haplogroup E and its parent clade haplogroup DE originated with Northeast Africans (or possibly even Near Easterners), not with Bantus. This is because Horners have the highest frequencies of haplogroup E, the highest variety of different sub-clades of the haplogroup (i.e. the highest diversity), and the exclusive presence of the oldest branches of the haplogroup.

"The presence of two underived E-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E."

www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

"Y-DNA haplogroup E would appear to have arisen in Northeast Africa based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration[...] E1b1b1 probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west--both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. Eb1b1 clusters are seen today in Western Europe, Southeast Europe, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa."

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJ5z1fj

[thamm1]

3) Bantus only recently acquired the haplogroup by assimilating some Afro-Asiatic males in Northeast Africa, which is why the most common haplogroup E lineage Bantus possess (namely, E1b1a/E3a) is only about 10,000 years old. The haplogroup, along with the Bantu languages, was then spread to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa by Bantu intermediaries via the Bantu expansion of 3500 years ago.

"E1b1a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern African to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion."

www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion

In the process, the migrating Bantus' paternal DNA (haplogroup E lineages) replaced the pre-existing Y-DNA haplogroups in the previously Khoisan, Pygmy (hunter-gatherer) and Afro-Asiatic-inhabited regions of southern and southeastern Africa that they invaded.

"The data presented demonstrate a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west-central Africa as a result of the "Bantu expansion" that erased the Y-chromosome diversity previously found. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are found, mainly in hunter-gathererers. These results contrast with the data provided by mtDNA, where ancient lineages are found and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu-farmers has been suggested."

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJ8c8Um

[thamm1]

4) Bantus share their deepest ancestry with Pygmies, not with Northeast Africans:

In other words, the original paternal haplogroups of Bantus and all other Negroid peoples were until recently the Paleo-African A and B clades that are still common in Pygmies and Khoisan relict populations, not haplogroup E lineages.
www.pnas.org/content/105/5/1596.full

www.pasteur.fr/ip/easysite/go/03b-000021-01g/the-history-of-central-african-pygmy-and-bantu-farmer-populations

anthropology.net/2008/02/12/mtdna-shows-pygmy-hunter-gathers-have-a-deep-ancestry-with-bantu-farmers/

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJBUxPa

[thamm1]

5) Most Negroid peoples speak languages from the Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Khoisan language families -- none of which are genetically related to the Afro-Asiatic language family spoken by most Hamitic peoples. Afro-Asiatic's nearest relatives are language families that are overwhelmingly spoken by populations with Caucasoid physiognomies, together with which it is grouped in the Nostratic and Borean super-phylums.

"It is clear that the Borean hypothesis involves a super-phylum some of whose sub-taxa are themselves super-phyla. The term phyletic chain is introduced as a better label, particularly because the Borean groups show a chain like distribution from southern Ethiopia through southwestern Eurasia to northeast Asia and down to the end of the New World. Borean has clear similarities to Swadesh's Vasco-Dene. Borean is predominantly associated with human populations of "Caucasoid" or "Northern Mongoloid" physical appearance, the major exceptions being southern India, southern China, southwestern Ethiopia, northern Nigeria, and the Chad Republic. Borean as a chain is closely associated with the appearance of the Upper Paleolithic in the Levant, Europe, and western Eurasia from 50,000 to 45,000 years ago."

greenberg-conference.stanford.edu/Fleming_Abstract.htm

starling.rinet.ru/maps/maps17.php?lan=en

This at the very least suggests a proto-Caucasoid origin for not only haplogroup E, but for the more upstream haplogroup CT too. It also reinforces the observation that haplogroup E is not the original paternal lineage of Bantus, Nilotes and other Negroid populations, but rather one that they later acquired.

Read more: hamiticunion.proboards.com/thread/4/hamitic-origin-haplogroup#ixzz3zzJDk6wg

[thamm1]

Cro-magnon present in north africa since at least 25 000 BP

[anansi]

Well Your whole premise is off as North African and Negroid are not mutually exclusive , and morphology had little to do with genetics as the Luo in East Africa are primarily broad featured Africans.

Nilotic people have been investigated in studies of both autosomal DNA and Y-DNA and carry predominantly haplogroup E1b1 .
Wood et al. (2005) tested samples of three Nilotic populations (Maasai from Kenya, Luo from Kenya, and Alur from the DRC) as part of a broad survey of human Y-chromosome DNA variation in Africa and found that the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup in each of the three populations was different, with E1b1b1-M35 being the most frequent among Maasai (13/26 = 50%, including 4/26 = 15% E1b1b1a-M78 and 9/26 = 35% E1b1b1-M35(xE1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1b-M81)), E1b1a-P1 being the most frequent among Luo (6/9 = 67%, including 4/9 E1b1a7-M191 and 2/9 E1b1a-P1(xE1b1a7-M191)
e1b1b1-m35.blogspot.jp/2011/02/e1b1b1-m35-dna-of-albert-einstein-and.html

The Luo people in Kenya as Obama's Grandma's African side of the game also in Sudan typifies this.
And Phenotype either broad featured or narrow featured have nothing to do with relatedness and both types were common in North Africa and spread unevenly throughout the continent.
Oh btw I noticed you tried to turn Chris Eret on his head, lol by slightly suggesting that Es evolved in Asia maybe kinda you guys are too predicable...

[thamm1]

The information you provided is not true at all.

[anansi]

Feb 13, 2016 0:42:27 GMT -5 thamm1 said:

The information you provided is not true at all.

Because you sayz so..Ok!

[thamm1]

Please provide real references and information.

[anansi]

Feb 13, 2016 1:28:42 GMT -5 thamm1 said:

Please provide real references and information.

I did.

[thamm1]

I hardly call that information scientific.

[anansi]

Feb 13, 2016 2:30:02 GMT -5 thamm1 said:

I hardly call that information scientific.

You can look it up by simply researching the what is given this is not rocket science without E there are no Africans to speak of and we know that's not true.
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215)
Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa

The human Y-chromosome haplogroup E is characterized by the mutations SRY4064, M96, and P29, on a background defined by the insertion of an Alu element (YAP+) (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002). The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% (Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004).

On the basis of the previously published phylogeny (Y Chromosome Consortium 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003), the mutations M2/P1/M180, on the one hand, and M35/M215, on the other, further subdivide E3 in two monophyletic haplogroups: E3a and E3b. Both haplogroups are frequent in Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002), although, to date, only E3b has also been observed in Europe (Semino et al. 2000) and western Asia (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004). Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).

The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002). Given the strong geographic structuring observed for the four subsets of E3b within Africa, it is possible that different E3b lineages also have different frequency profiles in western Eurasia and that the evolutionary events underlying the introduction of E3b chromosomes in this area from Africa were not as simple (Rosser et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2002; Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003) as previously proposed (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001).

In the present study, we address the question of the origin and dispersal of haplogroup E3b subclades within and outside of Africa by analyzing 3,401 individuals from five continents. These include 1,510 individuals analyzed here for the first time for Y-chromosome markers (see also footnotes “b,” “c,” and “d” of tab

link

Nilotic Peoples - Genetics - Y DNA

Y DNA

A Y-chromosome study by Wood et al. (2005) tested various populations in Africa for paternal lineages, including 26 Maasai and 9 Luo from Kenya and 9 Alur from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The signature Nilotic paternal marker Haplogroup A3b2 was observed in 27% of the Maasai, 22% of the Alur, and 11% of the Luo. Haplogroup B, another characteristically Nilotic paternal marker according to Gomes et al. (2010), was found in 22% of Wood et al.'s Luo samples and 8% of the studied Maasai. The E1b1b haplogroup was also observed in 50% of the Maasai, which is indicative of substantial gene flow into this population from Cushitic males. In addition, 67% of the Alur samples possessed the Sub-Saharan E2 haplogroup.

Another study by Hassan et al. (2008) analysed the Y-DNA of populations in the Sudan region, with various local Nilotic groups included for comparison. The researchers found the signature Nilotic A and B clades to be the most common paternal lineages amongst the Nilo-Saharan speakers, except those inhabiting western Sudan, where an appreciable North African influence was noted. Haplogroup A was observed amongst 62% of Dinka, 53.3% of Shilluk, 46.4% of Nuba, 33.3% of Nuer, 31.3% of Fur and 18.8% of Masalit. Haplogroup B was found in 50% of Nuer, 26.7% of Shilluk, 23% of Dinka, 14.3% of Nuba, 3.1% of Fur and 3.1% of Masalit. The E1b1b clade was also observed in 71.9% of the Masalit, 59.4% of the Fur, 39.3% of the Nuba, 20% of the Shilluk, 16.7% of the Nuer, and 15% of the Dinka. Hassan et al. attributed the atypically high frequencies of the haplogroup in the Masalit to either a recent population bottleneck that likely altered the community's original haplogroup diversity or to geographical proximity to E1b1b's place of origin in North Africa, where the researchers suggest that the clade "might have been brought to Sudan from after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago". Henn et al. (2008) similarly observed Afro-Asiatic influence in the Nilotic Datog of northern Tanzania, 43% of whom carried the M293 sub-clade of E1b1b.
link

COMPLEX GENETIC HISTORY OF EAST
AFRICAN HUMAN POPULATIONS

file:///C:/Users/Allen/Downloads/Hirbo_umd_0117E_11892%20(2).pdf

The only reason Im posting this is because I am bored and it's raining.

[thamm1]

But the information I provided still proves E1B1B originated in North Africa/Europe. Also there was never any black people in North Africa. 

[thamm1]

North African ancestors are both the cro-magnon Mechtoids people and men of Taforalt present in north africa since the mesolithic 25 000 years before the present; whose the mtDNA was found to be H, V, and U6 which are Eurasian lineages, as well as the proto-mediterranean Capsians who came from the mliddle east with Afro-Asiatic and the north african E1b1b lineage.