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Post by melanitex on Jun 2, 2016 22:09:32 GMT -5
The Amharic and other Semitic speaking Ethiopians have a portion of J Y-DNA Haplogroup (as well as E1b1b of course) so they DO have some admixture in them, the Oromo (Cushites) are the "pure" Ethiopians" as their J Y-DNA genetic marker is much much lower. It's interesting how the Oromo don't have a script but the Semitic Speaking Ethiopians do think about that for a minute..... OK lets turn our attention to Timbuktu for example (the greatest Universities in Medieval West Africa) don't you guys find it a little disheartening that West Africans had to use Arabic for their OWN universities and for whatever reason didn't have the ability or intelligence to create their OWN scripts to use in Timbuktu like all other Europeans that were able to create their own scripts for their societies?? I mean it is well known the Soninke (Mande Peoples) were the founders of the Ancient West African Empires but not even they have a script!! they had to use oral tradition/history instead. >_< As for Scripts being a biological determinant I dunno it seems like it as times because I'm asking questions to try and disprove that but it seems no one including myself has any answers. Rubbish Europeans didn´t invent any script with the possible exception of runes,all stemmed from Nile valley folks including Arabic, and wether early or late Africans did atleast invent independent scripts. They got their scripts and they diverged it enough just look at the Gothic, Runic, Cyrillic and Latin Alphabets they look NOTHING like Egyptian Hieroglyphs Proto-Sinatic or Pheoncian Scripts. Europeans diverged these scripts enough, yes they got help from an original source absolutely but they changed and modified them. Now can Africans claim the same thing especially as early as Europeans did it?? Most of those Alphabets were in use by the 8th Century in Europe. West Africa didn't even have writing by the 8th Century..... |
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Post by anansi on Jun 3, 2016 0:24:21 GMT -5
Rubbish Europeans didn´t invent any script with the possible exception of runes,all stemmed from Nile valley folks including Arabic, and wether early or late Africans did atleast invent independent scripts. They got their scripts and they diverged it enough just look at the Gothic, Runic, Cyrillic and Latin Alphabets they look NOTHING like Egyptian Hieroglyphs Proto-Sinatic or Pheoncian Scripts. Europeans diverged these scripts enough, yes they got help from an original source absolutely but they changed and modified them. Now can Africans claim the same thing especially as early as Europeans did it?? Most of those Alphabets were in use by the 8th Century in Europe. West Africa didn't even have writing by the 8th Century..... Now we are moving from biological determinative to one of geography lol, in any case West Africans did the same with the Ajami script and not for nothing the Incas ran a vast complex civilization devoid of a script but so far I haven´t read or heard anyone impuning the intellect of a single Incan for not doing so, and like them, they also built a vast complex civilization that paralled dyn 0 of the Kemitians, because they had other effective ways of communition although the written word cannot be overestemated. |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 0:39:48 GMT -5
They got their scripts and they diverged it enough just look at the Gothic, Runic, Cyrillic and Latin Alphabets they look NOTHING like Egyptian Hieroglyphs Proto-Sinatic or Pheoncian Scripts. Europeans diverged these scripts enough, yes they got help from an original source absolutely but they changed and modified them. Now can Africans claim the same thing especially as early as Europeans did it?? Most of those Alphabets were in use by the 8th Century in Europe. West Africa didn't even have writing by the 8th Century..... Now we are moving from biological determinative to one of geography lol, in any case West Africans did the same with the Ajami script and not for nothing the Incas ran a vast complex civilization devoid of a script but so far I haven´t read or heard anyone impuning the intellect of a single Incan for not doing so, and like them, they also built a vast complex civilization that paralled dyn 0 of the Kemitians, because they had other effective ways of communition although the written word cannot be overestemated. Their lack of script does show a lack of intellect especially since MOST other cultures had one at some point. It also shows a lack of foresight and future-proofing As for Ajami is that the only one or is there more? What group of people was Ajami used by??? what date was it created?? In what geographical location was the script devised? What language was it's modification based off? I hope it isn't another 19th Century Script.... Also in a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization (which you're absolutely correct about) but why wasn't Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations able to diverge a script based on direct Niley Valley Scripts like Merotic, Old Nubian or Egyptian Hieroglyphs like others were able to? Especially since the Mande peoples are a Soudanic Peoples...... |
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Post by anansi on Jun 3, 2016 10:08:04 GMT -5
Now we are moving from biological determinative to one of geography lol, in any case West Africans did the same with the Ajami script and not for nothing the Incas ran a vast complex civilization devoid of a script but so far I haven´t read or heard anyone impuning the intellect of a single Incan for not doing so, and like them, they also built a vast complex civilization that paralled dyn 0 of the Kemitians, because they had other effective ways of communition although the written word cannot be overestemated. Their lack of script does show a lack of intellect especially since MOST other cultures had one at some point. It also shows a lack of foresight and future-proofing As for Ajami is that the only one or is there more? What group of people was Ajami used by??? what date was it created?? In what geographical location was the script devised? What language was it's modification based off? I hope it isn't another 19th Century Script.... Also in a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization (which you're absolutely correct about) but why wasn't Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations able to diverge a script based on direct Niley Valley Scripts like Merotic, Old Nubian or Egyptian Hieroglyphs like others were able to? Especially since the Mande peoples are a Soudanic Peoples......What is most cultures with their original scripts??, most cultures that did write "BORROWED" scripts from near and far for lack of a better word it's called "diffusion", and by your own reckoning northwestern and north eastern Europeans have got to be the thickest people on the planet for besides being geographically closer to the literate Greeks and Romans who at times occupied their lands it took them hundreds of years to adapt a reworked African script used by said Greeks and Romans who couldn't be bothered to create their own. Ajami script twelfth century, now what?? |
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Post by desalin on Jun 3, 2016 13:03:52 GMT -5
None of my Ethiopian friends claim any admixture and there's no reputable information that claims they got their script from Arabia. Everyone seems to want to claim mixture with modern day Ethiopians but cannot provide substantive information on when this mixing happened. Semitic languages are just a construct ..a grouping of languages. Nsibidi would look different than Greek or Arabic because it is estimated to be much older and there's no such thing as a real or fake script. They are simply abstract items that carry information. Cuneiform looks like ish but it conveys information just other forms of writing. If you're looking for information about the effects of post-contact Africa you'd be better off researching cultural practices of of each area and look to see what infusion happened. Europeans brought nothing so your focus would likely center on groups in closer proximity. The Amharic and other Semitic speaking Ethiopians have a portion of J Y-DNA Haplogroup (as well as E1b1b of course) so they DO have some admixture in them, the Oromo (Cushites) are the "pure" Ethiopians" as their J Y-DNA genetic marker is much much lower. It's interesting how the Oromo don't have a script but the Semitic Speaking Ethiopians do think about that for a minute..... OK lets turn our attention to Timbuktu for example (the greatest Universities in Medieval West Africa) don't you guys find it a little disheartening that West Africans had to use Arabic for their OWN universities and for whatever reason didn't have the ability or intelligence to create their OWN scripts to use in Timbuktu like all other Europeans that were able to create their own scripts for their societies?? I mean it is well known the Soninke (Mande Peoples) were the founders of the Ancient West African Empires but not even they have a script!! they had to use oral tradition/history instead. >_< As for Scripts being a biological determinant I dunno it seems like it as times because I'm asking questions to try and disprove that but it seems no one including myself has any answers. So that's the point: ... "for whatever reason didn't have the ability or intelligence to create their OWN scripts to use in Timbuktu like all other Europeans that were able to create their own scripts for their societies??" Hmmm! I see better now. It's all about assessing a group's intelligence by its ability to create their own script. A few of them come to mind: all the ethnic group of the British isles, the franks, the germanic tribes, etc... Wait a minute! They have recently proven, at least for the past 5-6 centuries, that they were capable of intelligence even by not having created their "own script." So "my" premise was moot. Unless "I" have an agenda or "i" am myopic, I cannot be unbiasedly pushing that nonsense argument. "I" am so sorry, it could be an occasional bout of "european" centric delusion. |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 13:08:42 GMT -5
Their lack of script does show a lack of intellect especially since MOST other cultures had one at some point. It also shows a lack of foresight and future-proofing As for Ajami is that the only one or is there more? What group of people was Ajami used by??? what date was it created?? In what geographical location was the script devised? What language was it's modification based off? I hope it isn't another 19th Century Script.... Also in a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization (which you're absolutely correct about) but why wasn't Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations able to diverge a script based on direct Niley Valley Scripts like Merotic, Old Nubian or Egyptian Hieroglyphs like others were able to? Especially since the Mande peoples are a Soudanic Peoples......What is most cultures with their original scripts??, most cultures that did write "BORROWED" scripts from near and far for lack of a better word it's called "diffusion", and by your own reckoning northwestern and north eastern Europeans have got to be the thickest people on the planet for besides being geographically closer to the literate Greeks and Romans who at times occupied their lands it took them hundreds of years to adapt a reworked African script used by said Greeks and Romans who couldn't be bothered to create their own. Ajami script twelfth century, now what?? I conceded that most cultures borrowed or got their scripts I have hammered that point since the start that is why I wrote: "In a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization ( which you're absolutely correct about)" are you even reading my posts bro?? But what I'm asking is why did it take so long for Sub-Saharan Africans to do the same? Also you still haven't answered my question on why Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations were unable able to diverge a script based on direct Niley-Valley Scripts especially since they themselves are a Soudanic/Sahel peoples. If the Timbuktu universities were based on Arabic then how can we sure they were even founded by us?? The script came from Arabia so how can we be sure the Arabs didn't build those universities?? How did blacks (Mande peoples) create Manuscripts in Timbuktu when blacks (Mande Peoples) had no script?? the shit don't make sense does it? Please do not run from this question brotha if you don't know then just say you don't know. >_< As for Ajami being created the 12th Century is a little late don't you think? Most Scripts in Europe like Gothic Runic and Cyrillic were in use a lot sooner but fine it's not that late I suppose. Anyway what group of people was Ajami used by??? In what geographical location was the script devised/diverged? What language was it used with? |
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Post by obsidian71 on Jun 3, 2016 14:09:22 GMT -5
The Amharic and other Semitic speaking Ethiopians have a portion of J Y-DNA Haplogroup (as well as E1b1b of course) so they DO have some admixture in them, the Oromo (Cushites) are the "pure" Ethiopians" as their J Y-DNA genetic marker is much much lower. It's interesting how the Oromo don't have a script but the Semitic Speaking Ethiopians do think about that for a minute..... OK lets turn our attention to Timbuktu for example (the greatest Universities in Medieval West Africa) don't you guys find it a little disheartening that West Africans had to use Arabic for their OWN universities and for whatever reason didn't have the ability or intelligence to create their OWN scripts to use in Timbuktu like all other Europeans that were able to create their own scripts for their societies?? I mean it is well known the Soninke (Mande Peoples) were the founders of the Ancient West African Empires but not even they have a script!! they had to use oral tradition/history instead. >_< As for Scripts being a biological determinant I dunno it seems like it as times because I'm asking questions to try and disprove that but it seems no one including myself has any answers. I don't know enough about the history of the Oromo people to understand how they culturally transferred information. Yes Ethiopians that I know won't deny some admixture but many feel like claims of them "shacking up" with Arabs is overblown. Disheartening would never be the term that I would use. Timbuktu was no different than many regions in that they supported multiple languages, writing systems and deity. Just as the Rosetta Stone has three different forms of writing West Africa would have no problem having Nsibidi or some other script along with Arabic. There's no foul in recognizing the inspiration of Arabic sources who had built such learning institutions centuries earlier. The mark of intelligence is the ability to understand complex systems and adapt. The mere formation of a script does not necessarily impart intelligence upon a group of people. Today our pedagogical institutions employ a bridge of both forms of tutelage. The modern day teacher is a Griot that leverages written books as a referential tool. I'm amused by your inquisitiveness but at times you seem to want to wrap things up a bit early. Keep digging for those answers because it's fairly clear that we have no full understanding of ancient pre-colonial African groups. Onward. SaveSaveSaveSave |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 14:17:34 GMT -5
I don't know enough about the history of the Oromo people to understand how they culturally transferred information. Yes Ethiopians that I know won't deny some admixture but many feel like claims of them "shacking up" with Arabs is overblown. Disheartening would never be the term that I would use. Timbuktu was no different than many regions in that they supported multiple languages, writing systems and deity. Just as the Rosetta Stone has three different forms of writing West Africa would have no problem having Nsibidi or some other script along with Arabic. There's no foul in recognizing the inspiration of Arabic sources who had built such learning institutions centuries earlier. The mark of intelligence is the ability to understand complex systems and adapt. The mere formation of a script does not necessarily impart intelligence upon a group of people. Today our pedagogical institutions employ a bridge of both forms of tutelage. The modern day teacher is a Griot that leverages written books as a referential tool. I'm amused by your inquisitiveness but at times you seem to want to wrap things up a bit earlier. Keep digging for those answers because it's fairly clear that we have no full understanding of ancient pre-colonial African groups. Onward. SaveSaveIn other words you "don't know" which is cool at least you admitted it. This is why we as African must get off the nuts of Egypt and actually start researching other parts of Africa. Seems nobody knows ish about the place we were actually enslaved from it's ridiculous.... Also the "The mere formation of a script DOES mark intelligence upon a people, it does! The only reason why we are saying it doesn't is because we didn't have one lol it's that simple. The ugly duckling ALWAYS says looks doesn't matter but we all know looks do matter. I am communicating to you right now using a script which highlights it's importance. The only reason why we even know of Ancient Ghana and Timbuktu's history is because the information was recorded in a script called Arabic. The Arabs had enough intelligence to create a script for themselves and use it to record information about what they saw and did and store it away so it can be looked upon at any time in history for future reference. We for whatever reason lacked the intelligence to store our own history using our own Scripts to the point where we now have to get our information about our OWN history from Arabs it sucks it really does but it is what it is that's life I guess.... |
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Post by desalin on Jun 3, 2016 19:58:08 GMT -5
I don't know enough about the history of the Oromo people to understand how they culturally transferred information. Yes Ethiopians that I know won't deny some admixture but many feel like claims of them "shacking up" with Arabs is overblown. Disheartening would never be the term that I would use. Timbuktu was no different than many regions in that they supported multiple languages, writing systems and deity. Just as the Rosetta Stone has three different forms of writing West Africa would have no problem having Nsibidi or some other script along with Arabic. There's no foul in recognizing the inspiration of Arabic sources who had built such learning institutions centuries earlier. The mark of intelligence is the ability to understand complex systems and adapt. The mere formation of a script does not necessarily impart intelligence upon a group of people. Today our pedagogical institutions employ a bridge of both forms of tutelage. The modern day teacher is a Griot that leverages written books as a referential tool. I'm amused by your inquisitiveness but at times you seem to want to wrap things up a bit earlier. Keep digging for those answers because it's fairly clear that we have no full understanding of ancient pre-colonial African groups. Onward. SaveSaveIn other words you "don't know" which is cool at least you admitted it. This is why we as African must get off the nuts of Egypt and actually start researching other parts of Africa. Seems nobody knows ish about the place we were actually enslaved from it's ridiculous.... Also the "The mere formation of a script DOES mark intelligence upon a people, it does! The only reason why we are saying it doesn't is because we didn't have one lol it's that simple. The ugly duckling ALWAYS says looks doesn't matter but we all know looks do matter. I am communicating to you right now using a script which highlights it's importance. The only reason why we even know of Ancient Ghana and Timbuktu's history is because the information was recorded in a script called Arabic. The Arabs had enough intelligence to create a script for themselves and use it to record information about what they saw and did and store it away so it can be looked upon at any time in history for future reference. We for whatever reason lacked the intelligence to store our own history using our own Scripts to the point where we now have to get our information about our OWN history from Arabs it sucks it really does but it is what it is that's life I guess.... So the peoples of the British isles, the germans and franks lack intelligence. "Oh folie quand tu nous trends!" |
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Post by anansi on Jun 3, 2016 20:19:40 GMT -5
What is most cultures with their original scripts??, most cultures that did write "BORROWED" scripts from near and far for lack of a better word it's called "diffusion", and by your own reckoning northwestern and north eastern Europeans have got to be the thickest people on the planet for besides being geographically closer to the literate Greeks and Romans who at times occupied their lands it took them hundreds of years to adapt a reworked African script used by said Greeks and Romans who couldn't be bothered to create their own. Ajami script twelfth century, now what?? I conceded that most cultures borrowed or got their scripts I have hammered that point since the start that is why I wrote: "In a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization ( which you're absolutely correct about)" are you even reading my posts bro?? But what I'm asking is why did it take so long for Sub-Saharan Africans to do the same? Also you still haven't answered my question on why Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations were unable able to diverge a script based on direct Niley-Valley Scripts especially since they themselves are a Soudanic/Sahel peoples. If the Timbuktu universities were based on Arabic then how can we sure they were even founded by us?? The script came from Arabia so how can we be sure the Arabs didn't build those universities?? How did blacks (Mande peoples) create Manuscripts in Timbuktu when blacks (Mande Peoples) had no script?? the ish don't make sense does it? Please do not run from this question brotha if you don't know then just say you don't know. >_< As for Ajami being created the 12th Century is a little late don't you think? Most Scripts in Europe like Gothic Runic and Cyrillic were in use a lot sooner but fine it's not that late I suppose. Anyway what group of people was Ajami used by??? In what geographical location was the script devised/diverged? What language was it used with? Why should they base a script off Kmt when they are opposite ends of the continent these are two wholly different cultural complexes, for certain some folks a lot closer to and had direct close contacts eschewed writings and didn't adopt Mdu-Ntr, more than likely they preferred their own form of storing knowledge like the tried and tested griots, another thing is writing was considered sacred and was practiced only by priest, not unlike Europeans during the middle ages, with Islam came a more egalitarian use of the written word. And running from a question naaw that ain't me, how do we know what we know because the people that ran those universities told us who they are from their works like Tarikh es Soudan we also have a list of deens and administrators right down till the Moroccan invasion. How they got this knowledge in the first place?? they began to travel and trade brother some concentrated wholly on knowledge these were called marabouts and were a brother hood with a wide network spanning the Islamic world in search of and dispensing knowledge , converting to Islam they took back the written word and spread it,setting up schools and the like, these then added to the body of knowledge locally sourced as well as internationally , so much so that in time, a scholar from Timbuktu could teach anywhere in the Islamic world, but a professor from outside even from a prestigious university such as the university of Baghdad had to take a battery of tests, and if found wanting had to sit with the student, yes this actually happened. What I am saying to you is context and era matters. |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 21:17:09 GMT -5
I conceded that most cultures borrowed or got their scripts I have hammered that point since the start that is why I wrote: "In a previous post you mentioned that all Europeans and Arabs got their script based of Niley Valley Civilization ( which you're absolutely correct about)" are you even reading my posts bro?? But what I'm asking is why did it take so long for Sub-Saharan Africans to do the same? Also you still haven't answered my question on why Ancient Ghana or Timbuktu populations were unable able to diverge a script based on direct Niley-Valley Scripts especially since they themselves are a Soudanic/Sahel peoples. If the Timbuktu universities were based on Arabic then how can we sure they were even founded by us?? The script came from Arabia so how can we be sure the Arabs didn't build those universities?? How did blacks (Mande peoples) create Manuscripts in Timbuktu when blacks (Mande Peoples) had no script?? the ish don't make sense does it? Please do not run from this question brotha if you don't know then just say you don't know. >_< As for Ajami being created the 12th Century is a little late don't you think? Most Scripts in Europe like Gothic Runic and Cyrillic were in use a lot sooner but fine it's not that late I suppose. Anyway what group of people was Ajami used by??? In what geographical location was the script devised/diverged? What language was it used with? Why should they base a script off Kmt when they are opposite ends of the continent these are two wholly different cultural complexes, for certain some folks a lot closer to and had direct close contacts eschewed writings and didn't adopt Mdu-Ntr, more than likely they preferred their own form of storing knowledge like the tried and tested griots. Why should they base a script of Nile Valley culture when they're at the end of the continent?? erm maybe because everybody else managed to do it, Syrians Arabs Greeks Phenocians Germanics hell even Indians got in on the action with their Brahmi Script. I do love the deflections and excuses here by the way "but but but the culture this and culture that" So the Sub-Saharan African is the only one that's so special and that he's so unique and awesome he didn't need to invent a script for himself because his ways are so much better notice how every other culture went with the script idea and NOT the oral tradition route Once they were exposed to a script they created their own. I wonder why that is, erm maybe because they know it's the superior way of storing information. Also if the Griots are tried and tested. Why are Africans now in cooperating new 19th Century scripts like N'Ko and Ankene? |
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Post by anansi on Jun 3, 2016 21:17:11 GMT -5
Repost this vid to drive home my point.  Time and context matters, Greeks,Phoenicians,Syrians, Arabs are geographically closer than Wagadu , you want these ppl to be quasi Kemetians it seems when they had their own thing working for them, and what's with the Subsaharan African thing?? are Kush and Axum not SubSaharan, or other folks below the Sahara that did wrote. Oh yeah we are back to geographical or is it biological determinative. |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 21:24:20 GMT -5
Look i'll make it real simple.......because you guys seem to be tripping over yourselves. Show me a Sub-Saharan African Script that was used in Ancient Mali (Timbuktu) or Ancient Ghana (Wagadu) that was their own. I don't mind if it has a Parent System.... Don't Deflect!! |
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Post by anansi on Jun 3, 2016 21:41:54 GMT -5
Look i'll make it real simple.......because you guys seem to be tripping over yourselves. Show me a Sub-Saharan African Script that was used in Ancient Mali (Timbuktu) or Ancient Ghana (Wagadu) that was their own. I don't mind if it has a Parent System.... Don't Deflect!! No you are just tripping!!Proto Saharan was used in the Mali and the surrounding area, however the way they made use of it was quite different if you are really paying attention as was said it was mostly non egalitarian, what you want are plays and histories written down and published works spread all over west Africa from pre Islamic times, well it didn't happened like that. TIME AND CONTEXT MATTERS! |
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Post by melanitex on Jun 3, 2016 22:09:54 GMT -5
Look i'll make it real simple.......because you guys seem to be tripping over yourselves. Show me a Sub-Saharan African Script that was used in Ancient Mali (Timbuktu) or Ancient Ghana (Wagadu) that was their own. I don't mind if it has a Parent System.... Don't Deflect!! No..... That's all you needed to say =) A nyway because nobody has been able to answer my question directly. There is one theory I have been thinking about. It seems that E1b1b carriers for whatever reason were able to devise scripts more consistently think about it Ge'ez, Berber Scripts (Tiffingah) Egyptian Hieroglyphs. As E1b1b seems to be tied to the more Northern Portions of the continent as well as the Horn Of Africa For whatever reason those in West Africa, Central Africa and South Africa whom have the strongest genetic links with (E1b1a)for whatever reason lacked the mental capacity to do what their E1b1b cousins were able to do. This is why I believe early Europeans like Seligman separated the so called "Hamitic Africans" from the "Negroid African" not only based on phenotype but also on mental capacity as he believed the so called Hamitic African to have superior civilizations and because most of Africa high culture was located there. While Seligman's classification of Hamatic African vs Negroid African as a separate race was wrong (We now know due to genetics the two groups cluster together and E1b1b carriers aren't some Eurasian affinity) I can totally see WHY he thought that especially when see see things like African Scripts not present where e1b1a reaches it's strongest points......
Like I said it's just a theory of mine..... |
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