Folks Waking up To China In Africa !

[nebsen]

Brother, on the advice show telling it like it is about the Chinese, & what they are doing in & out of Africa. My only criticism he is not holding these corrupt Africa leaders accountable ,for there wohlesell handing over of the resources & people to the Chinese !

[zarahan]

The CHinese police claimed that "some criminal activity" happened with "some Africans." Therefore Kenyans, Ugandans and Nigerians are banned. Imagine what tbhe outcry would be if CHinese were banned from Washington DC hotels because of WELL DOCUMENTED Chinese ripoffs of intellectual property, movies, music, industrial products etc, not mere fragmentary reports. Nor can said Africans buy land, open businesses, etc.. Its about time African countries start applying the same treatment to CHinese in Africa..
Here's Dr Mumbi Seraki's take:



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FROM PREVIOUS THREAD:
egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/16304


Yep we had a bit of this topic here and there. China can be of benefit that is clear. Its
ability to quickly build infrastructure is a plus, as are other creative methods
that can be sued- such as turnkey projects, scholarships ofr 20,000 African students a year, etc
but many naive folk seem to think the Chinese are doing things out of the goodness of their hearts.
They ain't, and Africans need to be hard-nosed and realistic about this. Elites need to drive a
harder bargain- they are in some ways giving away African resources for a relative pittance, while they
pocket bribes and kickbacks. They are even selling thousands of passports to the Chinese
who compete with poor Africans on the street. Why for example are so many Chinese vendors
selling loose smokes in the streets of Dar Es Salaam? Hell, is nothing to be left for
the small man, the poor African, that even this low end retail is taken over by foreigners?
The book below paints a blunt picture stripped of the rosy "win-win" rhetoric, including the
racist attitudes of many Chinese workers and migrants.



www.postwesternworld.com/2017/02/06/continent-migrants-building/
Review: China's Second Continent: How a million migrants are building a new empire in Africa. By Howard French. Vintage; Reprint edition (February 3, 2015). 304 pages. U$ 16.50 (Kindle, amazon.com)

China's growing influence in Africa is, without a doubt, the most important event in African history since the end of the Cold War. Given the rapidity of events, our understanding of this complex phenomenon is still limited, and basic questions remain unanswered: What is Beijing's strategy and motivation on the continent? Do Africans benefit from Chinese investments? Will China spur economic development or deindustrialization? Will China integrate into today's aid regime, or will it disregard established structures such as the DAC, the Paris Declaration and the Working Party of Aid Effectiveness? What does this mean for the future of aid? Will China's activity in Africa undermine Western efforts to promote human rights, good governance and democracy? Given how tricky it is to obtain data and China's limited interest in being transparent about its activities and intentions in Africa, the discussion is often based on anecdotes, rough estimates and rumors. For example, there exists a general confusion about what constitutes Chinese aid, loans and investments, and these figures are often thrown together, creating an uninformed debate.

Several books over the past years have analyzed some of the questions above. Deborah Brautigam's The Dragon's Gift: The Read Story of China in Africa (reviewed here) provides an excellent analysis that demystifies a lot of the common narratives about China's role in Africa. Elizabeth Economy's By All Necessary Means is another highly readable, more recent contribution. In this context, Howard French, a former journalist for the New York Times, has written a very engaging account of China's growing role in Africa. His book is a mixture of essay and travelogue, and unlike Brautigam, which discusses nitty-gritty details about Chinese aid programs and loans, French looks at the China's role from a different angle: he traveled through a dozen Sub-Saharan countries and listened to the many Chinese people who have come to live in Africa, and Africans who shared their opinions about the Chinese. French possesses ideal credentials for such an enterprise: He has wide-ranging experience in Africa and speaks Chinese fluently, thus providing the reader with insights non-Chinese speakers would struggle to obtain.
rtr1lvk9

It is French's capacity to tell the reader about his encounters, rather than the book's grander narrative, that makes China's Second Continent so interesting. We learn about countless Chinese who emigrated to countries all over Africa -- like Namibia, Ghana and Mozambique -- and their ambitions, difficulties and their daily lives. What emerges is a complex picture and a sense that seeking to identify a narrative about China's role in Africa inevitably misses a much more nuanced picture. While debates at think tanks and universities often implicitly assume that Beijing articulates and executes a highly centralized Africa policy according to a grand master plan, French's book offers a powerful antidote in showing that thousands of Chinese come to Africa without any preparation at all, just trying their luck in an uncoordinated fashion. In Namibia, French speaks to a Chinese immigrant who entered Namibia twice, only to be deported each time, before entering a third time, finally amassing a modest fortune. The Chinese government's strategy, of course, is not entirely hands-off: evidence suggests that policy makers in Beijing exert pressure on African governments to allow more Chinese to settle on the continent, and to not prosecute and expel Chinese companies operating illegally in Africa — such as logging in environmentally protected forests or overfishing.

Most of the book's chapters bring together discussions with local chieftains, diplomats, engineers and people French meets in the streets -- followed by a short and usually balanced debate about China's role on the African continent. French comes across as a connoisseur of both African and Chinese society, and his analysis does not suggest Beijing's influence on Africa is overall negative. Chinese diplomats are depicted as polished and dishonest, but French also gives voice to plenty of Africans who argue that it African elites, not the Chinese, who are to blame for the problems the continent faces.

French points to the often shocking tensions between Chinese rhetoric of win-win cooperation (and the implication that the Chinese are better partners for Africa than Western those from Western countries) and the often blatant racism the Chinese migrants show when speaking about the locals. Very few are genuinely interested in integrating in local societies, although a few lean local languages. As a consequence, while Africa may benefit tremendously from an economic point of view from China's presence, the more than one million Chinese living in Africa today have done preciously little to promote Chinese culture.

[anansi]

I said once I'll say it again, and everyone here understand this, it's not about feelings, it's about getting as much for your community, nation or continent and even a social construct called " race" ,always look behind who is behind the curtain ,and yes the Chinese need African markets and material, none of this trade off is free, I suggests the Ugandan, Kenyan and Nigerian police respond in kind when Chinese nationals caused problems in their host nation nations,although the idea of collective punishment unreasonable anywhere ,but appropriate as an eye for an eye until all get the message.

[Deleted]

"I suggests the Ugandan, Kenyan and Nigerian police respond in kind when Chinese nationals caused problems in their host nation nations,although the idea of collective punishment unreasonable anywhere ,but appropriate as an eye for an eye until all get the message."
Great, why not start with the Europeans and their offshoots, after all, Africans have had at least a half millennium of much worst treatment from them?
"Given the rapidity of events, our understanding of this complex phenomenon is still limited, and basic questions remain unanswered: What is Beijing's strategy and motivation on the continent? Do Africans benefit from Chinese investments? Will China spur economic development or deindustrialization? Will China integrate into today's aid regime, or will it disregard established structures such as the DAC, the Paris Declaration and the Working Party of Aid Effectiveness?"
I find it strange that these questions are entertained as serious ones on this forum. Zaharan, please tell me what good "...established structures such as the DAC, the Paris Declaration and the Working Party of Aid Effectiveness" have done for Africans. Why are you guys not asking original and serious questions, such as: Why the crappy leaders? What good have Western institutions really done? Is 'education' really the way out of this dilemma?

[anansi]

@ Djosker it's not about ignoring Euro-American BS when it come to Africa, none here is suggesting that Euro-Americans are some how better than the Chinese, what we are saying is ,walking into deals with eyes wide shut is irresponsible , there is a saying that goes , once bitten twice shy,meaning Africans can not afford to be stiffed yet again by outsiders, btw Russia is now eying Africa ,there are many benefits resulting from engagement with the Chinese.

However If Africans do not set parameters , such abuses be they western or eastern will go unchecked and increase viciousness.
Like I said, no non Africans (Chinese) included, is there to do Africans any favour, they are there to do business which is good, how Africans conduct themselves is key, because this site is mainly a history site lets take a pg from history, contrast the contact with the Portuguese and the kingdom of the Kongo and the Kingdom of 16th century Japan for example, both had pretty much the same level of civilization, Japan had literacy, contacts With the Portuguese started out well for both kingdoms, trade ,exchange of embassies etc, then things went south for both, because both their upper classes could not get enough of Portuguese goods and culture, especially religion ,overseen by Portuguese priests , backed up by Kongolese kings and armies, at the same exact era , Japan faced a similar situation, but they put the brakes on and so survived foreign encroachment, the result is two very different historical out come, one would become a slave mart and a by word for instability and all that is wrong with Africa in general, further be known as the heart of darkness, the other would in time become a world class power.

[Deleted]

"However If Africans do not set parameters , such abuses be they western or eastern will go unchecked and increase viciousness...how Africans conduct themselves is key, because this site is mainly a history site lets take a pg from history, contrast the contact with the Portuguese and the kingdom of the Kongo and the Kingdom of 16th century Japan for example, both had pretty much the same level of civilization, Japan had literacy, contacts With the Portuguese started out well for both kingdoms, trade ,exchange of embassies etc, then things went south for both, because both their upper classes could not get enough of Portuguese goods and culture, especially religion ,overseen by Portuguese priests , backed up by Kongolese kings and armies, at the same exact era , Japan faced a similar situation, but they put the brakes on and so survived foreign encroachment, the result is two very different historical out come, one would become a slave mart and a by word for instability and all that is wrong with Africa in general, further be known as the heart of darkness, the other would in time become a world class power."

You seem to contradict yourself when you write: "...the contact with the Portuguese and the kingdom of the Kongo and the Kingdom of 16th century Japan for example, both had pretty much the same level of civilization, Japan had literacy, contacts With the Portuguese started out well for both kingdoms, trade ,exchange of embassies etc, then things went south for both, because both their upper classes could not get enough of Portuguese goods and culture, especially religion ,overseen by Portuguese priests , backed up by Kongolese kings and armies, at the same exact era , Japan faced a similar situation, but they put the brakes on and so survived foreign encroachment, the result is two very different historical out come, one would become a slave mart and a by word for instability and all that is wrong with Africa in general, further be known as the heart of darkness, the other would in time become a world class power."

If the Japanese "...put the brakes on" by banning Christianity and closing its ports to foreign nations, they couldn't possibly have developed the same hunger for Western goods as the Kongolese kings did. It's my understanding that the Japanese restricted trade with Westerners by allowing them to do business in very few ports. They were mostly interested in the technology the foreigners had. They put to death anybody who became a Christian until Perry showed up with his fleet. After that event, they threw themselves into imitating the West with the aim of catching up with them.

Please state the parameters that must be set by Africans.

[anansi]

@ Djosker no there is no contradiction, the Japanese elites did in fact started out in the same fashion as the Kongolese , but a time came when, Oda Nobunaga saw the same threat and put a stop to it, the fact that they then had special port of calls is to my point..BTW at least one ruler of the Kongo recognized this danger and acted on it, king Nkanga a Mvika he not only defeated the Portuguese and their allies, driving them out of his kingdom and took territories from them in neighboring Angola, not only that be he forced them to repatriate captives taken as slaves to Brazil back to his Kingdom, however he died, and his son and ministers, reversed his policy and invited the Portuguese back.

As to what brakes I would have.
1 lands can be least but not bought by foreigners..up for review at certain times before continue.
2 All foreign business need a local partnership.. South Korea actually have this.
content.next.westlaw.com/Document/I2ef129991ed511e38578f7ccc38dcbee/View/FullText.html?contextData=(sc.Default)&transitionType=Default&firstPage=true&bhcp=1
Certain restrictions on where one can invest or not.
3 guarantee a transfer of technology before signing any agreement.
But I'm sure better minds than I can do better.

[zarahan]

Djokster said:
Zaharan, please tell me what good "...established structures such as the DAC, the Paris Declaration and the Working Party of Aid Effectiveness" have done for Africans. Why are you guys not asking original and serious questions, such as: Why the crappy leaders? What good have Western institutions really done? Is 'education' really the way out of this dilemma?

OK, but since you mention it, you yourself have to put more on the table, and you have not as yet made
any serious or original analyses per se on the issue (look forward to your discussion). Post was more on
China in Africa in general, not so much DAC, Paris Declaration, and Working Party of Aid etc. I do say
above that the Chinese can be useful on several counts. But I can appreciate what you mean about questioning
these programs in Africa.

What's your take on these 3 things (DAC, Paris Declaration, and Working Party of Aid etc.)?
Are they good, neutral, or bad? mix? Why or why not?

[zarahan]

Aug 19, 2018 2:41:26 GMT -5 anansi said:

@ Djosker no there is no contradiction, the Japanese elites did in fact started out in the same fashion as the Kongolese , but a time came when, Oda Nobunaga saw the same threat and put a stop to it, the fact that they then had special port of calls is to my point..BTW at least one ruler of the Kongo recognized this danger and acted on it, king Nkanga a Mvika he not only defeated the Portuguese and their allies, driving them out of his kingdom and took territories from them in neighboring Angola, not only that be he forced them to repatriate captives taken as slaves to Brazil back to his Kingdom, however he died, and his son and ministers, reversed his policy and invited the Portuguese back.

As to what brakes I would have.
1 lands can be least but not bought by foreigners..up for review at certain times before continue.
2 All foreign business need a local partnership.. South Korea actually have this.
content.next.westlaw.com/Document/I2ef129991ed511e38578f7ccc38dcbee/View/FullText.html?contextData=(sc.Default)&transitionType=Default&firstPage=true&bhcp=1
Certain restrictions on where one can invest or not.
3 guarantee a transfer of technology before signing any agreement.
But I'm sure better minds than I can do better.

Hmm, well those 3 cover a lot of ground. Maybe a few can be added in the areas of:

-requiring more true turnkey projects where Africans are trained to take over, not just be
cheap labor on the lowest end portions

--More careful scrutiny/regulation of environmental costs and tradeoffs and damage. Chinese
strip-mining methods and pollution have become a serious environmental problem in some areas
for example

--more focus on productive projects that help the small man, versus big "prestige" projects
mostly used or manipulated by the elites. The money spent on multi-million dollar theaters
for example could be better spent on roads, digging wells, providing high quality breeding
livestock or seeds to farmers, environmental sanitation to cut the many crippling diseases,
clean drinking water in ordinary villages, etc etc. These things are not as showy as
the "prestige" projects but they will save many more lives, and provide broader based
employment and income generation over time, long after the theater walls begin the deteriorate

Some of the stuff above might be profitable in many countries.

[zarahan]

Aug 18, 2018 11:19:54 GMT -5 @djokser said:

"I suggests the Ugandan, Kenyan and Nigerian police respond in kind when Chinese nationals caused problems in their host nation nations,although the idea of collective punishment unreasonable anywhere ,but appropriate as an eye for an eye until all get the message."
Great, why not start with the Europeans and their offshoots, after all, Africans have had at least a half millennium of much worst treatment from them?

ok, but how do your translate this into practical action? Give an example of what you would
do to various Europeans, inside and outside, if you were running an African country?

[zarahan]

Anansi says:
BTW at least one ruler of the Kongo recognized this danger and acted on it, king Nkanga a Mvika he not only defeated the Portuguese and their allies, driving them out of his kingdom and took territories from them in neighboring Angola, not only that be he forced them to repatriate captives taken as slaves to Brazil back to his Kingdom, however he died, and his son and ministers, reversed his policy and invited the Portuguese back.

Hmm haven't run into this guy before. WHo is Nkanga? Any links and description?

[Deleted]

Zaharan, try Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_of_Kongo

"ok, but how do your translate this into practical action? Give an example of what you would

do to various Europeans, inside and outside, if you were running an African country?"
I don't have to give an example of what I would do since I'm not African. Zimbabwe has shown the world how to deal with their former colonial overlords by taking the land back from them, demanding a51/49 split in mining ventures in their favor plus compensation to the local communities affected, etc. In other words, everything you found so useful in Anansi's comment. They pursued such policy from 2000 to 2017. They are scaling it back due to the pressures placed on them by the USA and Europe. Have you heard of ZIDERA enacted in 2001 by the US Congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe_Democracy_and_Economic_Recovery_Act_of_2001)? Despite these roadblocks the people of Zimbabwe are producing more corn than white Rhodesians did. Reading the Western press from 2000 onward, this result is shocking. A simple explanation is that the western press lies. zimbabweland.wordpress.com/2017/01/09/1892/. "...established structures such as the DAC, the Paris Declaration and the Working Party of Aid Effectiveness" serve western interests even when they make objective assessments of a situation. The Chinese and Westerners should be dealt with according to the rules of diplomacy, which take into account the national interest, not by emotions.

 

[nebsen]

China's growing influence in Africa has troubled me & others for a long time; even China seemed to have won the & influenced many Africans & African Americans of its no interference policy unlike the West. But I knew it was a cover for a much more sinister plan,when will folks WAKE UP TO China's real INTENTIONS !

[Deleted]

"But I knew it was a cover for a much more sinister plan,when will folks WAKE UP TO China's real INTENTIONS !"
Do tell! What are China's real intentions? Sorry, YouTube propaganda isn't good enough to make your point. Try a little harder. What, precisely are you objecting to in China's policy toward Africa? Can you give an example of intentions toward Africa that are not sinister? What of Africa's intentions toward itself, do you know what they are and how they plan to achieve them? You could start with Ethiopia for example.
Read this article and try to tell me that Africans living under the yoke of French financial domination are "free". roape.net/2017/05/18/cfa-franc-french-monetary-imperialism-africa/

[nebsen]

Sept 16, 2018 3:33:28 GMT -5 @djokser said:

"But I knew it was a cover for a much more sinister plan,when will folks WAKE UP TO China's real INTENTIONS !"
Do tell! What are China's real intentions? Sorry, YouTube propaganda isn't good enough to make your point. Try a little harder. What, precisely are you objecting to in China's policy toward Africa? Can you give an example of intentions toward Africa that are not sinister? What of Africa's intentions toward itself, do you know what they are and how they plan to achieve them? You could start with Ethiopia for example.
Read this article and try to tell me that Africans living under the yoke of French financial domination are "free". roape.net/2017/05/18/cfa-franc-french-monetary-imperialism-africa/

Well, i don't have to explain any thing to you,I've been aware of China & political ambitions since the little Red Book was made available in the west in the 60's..so I know what my concerns are & have been over the past years.... this is nothing new to me about China both as a ancient civilization & as China reemerges as a Mega Power & her ambitions to regain her position in the 21century...it's not a ether or concerning the West or China but a Both And...propaganda can be seen as anything one reads or sees via You-Tube or anything else..it's all propaganda !!!

I'm not trapped in a binary about the West Vs China & it's so called non interference policies which I've known was a cover..for her greater ambitions,don't get it twisted !!! China & the West are really two sides of the same coin...which is POWER, WEALTH, & DOMINATION !!!