jhosx
Craftsperson
Posts: 19
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Post by jhosx on Mar 27, 2019 14:33:45 GMT -5
I don't think there has been a single study that has spread more disinformation than the Krause study that purports that the Ancient Egyptians were somehow more related to the peoples of the Near East than any other african cultures, despite the fact that the pretty clearly migrated from the south and share more in common lingustically and culturally with Africa than with any Near Eastern cultures. Why is this clearly slanted study making so many waves when it doesn't even make sense? It's been debunked for the crap that it is, but people (I'm talking on instagram, on Reddit, and in real life) keep bringing it up like it's fact. I made an account just to vent my frustration. It's surreal. Attachments:
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Post by asante on Mar 31, 2019 13:12:10 GMT -5
I don't think there has been a single study that has spread more disinformation than the Krause study that purports that the Ancient Egyptians were somehow more related to the peoples of the Near East than any other african cultures, despite the fact that the pretty clearly migrated from the south and share more in common lingustically and culturally with Africa than with any Near Eastern cultures. Why is this clearly slanted study making so many waves when it doesn't even make sense? It's been debunked for the crap that it is, but people (I'm talking on instagram, on Reddit, and in real life) keep bringing it up like it's fact. I made an account just to vent my frustration. It's surreal. Who exactly is still promoting it? Also they didn't read the full study if they think that that 2017 study helped their case.
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Post by zarahan on Mar 31, 2019 22:13:55 GMT -5
What's this Krause study? Never heard of it. But if they are using the tired old tactic of "repetitive denialism" they have already failed, because that tactic only motivates people to post even more credible research and scholarship, defeating denialism. People are duplicating the info widely. It ain't gonna disappear. In fact attempts to make data "disappear" as is done on Wikipedia have utterly failed. People got pissed and expanded valid data far and wide when it normally would have remained buried in specialist academia. Dishonest "disappearance" tactics have totally backfired. Failure is also reflected 3 other ways: (1) While there is still work to be done in academia and ins secondary education, the old bogus propaganda of the past, and in some of the Mary Lefkowitz era is no longer tenable. Thus school textbooks (again some work remains) increasingly reflect more accurate and valid data. Morkot's 2005 intro college textbook "The Egyptians" for example calls Egypt "An African civilization, developed by African peoples." That accurate description is slowly filtering down the line in basic texts. 2) Web enabled people these days are much more savvy. They are quicker to spot BS. In these days of GOogle Books, and college student accounts giving full access to much research and publications, knowledgeable people are quickly on to current BS, and they are not shy about speaking up. Its the academics sometimes who have to play catch-up. 3) Attempts to gin up "wild-eyed" or kooky "Afrocentrists" are an exercise in diminishing returns. The hard data, yes mainstream data, now widely available, and building on the databases of the past, exposes such, including the strawmen. It establishes a strong anvil of knowledge, sufficient to take on any and all comers with confidence. Diop urged that people not just take his word for it, but establish things on a firm scientific or factual plane. WOrk still remains, and there are predictable problems, including not only the usual racialists and clueless liberals but shaky "hotep" claimants who do not bother to study and understand in detail before boldly spouting off. But Diop nevertheless was/is correct, and credible data is being expanded.
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 1, 2019 8:12:19 GMT -5
The Abusir report, before publication, was referred to as the Kraus. Schueneman(sp) is the credited author/team leader. Both have previous works on Africa. Among many, there's also that 2017 Schlebusch ADMIXTURE graph that, though useful, is biased/poorly reference sample setted. Here's my K7 redux listing exemplar pops for each K. Remember, lower K's omit possible ancestries but hi-K's and truly varied reference sets will detect. Yte popular sensationalism, undeterred by the authors or the professional genomicist community, of the 'Kraus' is the backup for yte visual media to scientifically present West Eurasian racial propaganda as reality ala PBS (2018) First Civilizations Egyptian beginnings. egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2795/pbs-2018-nabta-playa-nekhen Note the last post uncover THE big failure of Afrocentricity.
www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010066#000020I miss Ase's memes. Don't forget African doesn't mean black. That's their default for North coastal Africa and Sahara by which they mean modern Rif and Kabyle types. One fools oneself thinking otherwise. Not at all do they mean last Pleistocene Inner Africans following their familiar grasslands expand to the north because of the African Humid Period's West African Monsoon shift driven by Earth's ~20,000 year wobble. SHOUT: hey Mensamind Tibbou samples available @ Haber (2016). Robust yourself! Exposed his interpretations' invalidity last year re 134:3 West Eurasian oversampling bias.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 2, 2019 9:16:56 GMT -5
Tibbou samples available @ Haber (2016)?? ngs.sanger.ac.uk/scratch/project/team19/ArmenianGenotype data can be downloaded as VCF files from the European Variation Archive www.ebi.ac.uk/eva under accession number PRJEB9822 or as plink files from ngs.sanger.ac.uk/scratch/project/team19/Armenian. For tests of genetic affinity to Neolithic Europeans, we merged our samples with the genome of the Tyrolean Iceman.21 We downloaded the BAM file mapped to hg18 and called all variants using GATK.23 liftOver (http://genome.ucsc.edu) was used to convert the coordinates to hg19; the final data set consisted of 91 115 SNPs. For tests of genetic affinity to Mesolithic Europeans, we merged our data set with the genome of the La Braña sample.24 We downloaded the BAM file mapped to hg19 and called the variants using GATK. The final data set consisted of 103 627 SNPs. Haber et al(2016) "We sought to date these mixture of events using exponential decay of admixture-induced LD. The oldest mixture events appear to be between populations related to sub-Saharan Africans and West Europeans occurring ~3800 BCE, followed closely by a mixture of Sardinian and Caucasus-related populations. Later, several mixture events occurred from 3000 to 1200 BCE involving diverse Eurasian populations (Table 1, Figure 3)." When I read this 3 years ago I did a double take.......That is why LD is so important along with UNSUPERVISED Admixture testing ======================= Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences - Marc Haber2017 Accession Numbers Sequencing data for 99 present-day Lebanese individuals reported in this paper are available through the European Genome-phenome Archive (EGA) under accession number EGA: EGAS00001002084. Raw sequencing reads for 5 ancient Canaanite individuals are available through the European Nucleotide Archive (ENA) under accession number ENA: PRJEB21330. Aligned sequences and genotypes can be obtained from the corresponding authors.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 2, 2019 15:38:34 GMT -5
This is the problem! How can SSA DNA exist in Armenia 3800bc but not present IN Africa(North) 300ad???!!! Makes Absolutely no sense. African DNA in Eurasia but NOT in North Africa. THEY ARE LYING ...as usual. or twisting the data. Genetic evidence for an origin of the Armenians from Bronze Age mixing of multiple populations -Marc Haber, 2016 Quote: "Haber et al(2016) "We sought to date these mixture of events using exponential decay of admixture-induced LD. The oldest mixture events appear to be between populations related to sub-Saharan Africans and West Europeans occurring ~3800 BCE, followed closely by a mixture of Sardinian and Caucasus-related populations. Later, several mixture events occurred from 3000 to 1200 BCE involving diverse Eurasian populations (Table 1, Figure 3)." " Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods - Verena J. Schuenemann,quote: "However, we note that all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt. It is possible that populations in the south of Egypt were more closely related to those of Nubia and had a higher sub-Saharan genetic component, in which case the argument for an influx of sub-Saharan ancestries after the Roman Period might only be partially valid and have to be nuanced. Clearly, more genetic studies on ancient human remains from southern Egypt and Sudan are needed before apodictic statements can be madeIn particular, we seek to determine if the inhabitants of this settlement were affected at the genetic level by foreign conquest and domination, especially during the Ptolemaic (332–30BCE) and Roman (30BCE–395CE) Periods." THESE EUROPEANS CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES WITH THEIR LIES AND DISTORTIONS
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 2, 2019 15:40:28 GMT -5
tsk! tsk! tsk!
SSA ancestry in Armenia 3800bc but not in Africa during the Roman period @395ce??? Really?!
LIARS!!!!
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Post by Tukuler al~Takruri on Apr 2, 2019 18:42:38 GMT -5
Haber, Wells, Tyler-Smith et al (2016) Chad genetic diversity Am J Human Genetics 99, 1316-1324
reports from Tibbou genetic data. Their genomes are important for to establish continental substructure.
Their locale is northeast of the old mega Lake Chad. Holocene trans Sahara traffic from south of the lake went around its west shores and thru the 'Tibesti' to get to Egy n Nub oases. (based in part on D'Atanasio 2018).
Tibbou probably got bits of Holocene central and east 'Monsoon Sahara' ancestry, Rock Ethiopian (Herodotus) ancestry, Garamante ancestry, and Libyan (Herodotus) ancestry.
I would think you need Tibbou genomes in your data collection.
EDIT ok see u got the acc #s But what is 'no good'?
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 2, 2019 19:03:47 GMT -5
Thanks! Yes, As much African datasets as possible. I am reasonably proficient in Admixture and other software now. LiftOver is giving me some problems. Looks like it wasn't well written. Getting some RAM problems I am trying to work through. Don't want to switch to a more robust computer unless I have to. But these datasets are HDD/RAM demanding. quote: ''Accession Numbers Whole-genome sequencing and SNP genotyping data are available through the European Genome-phenome Archive (EGA) under accession numbers EGA: EGAD00001002742 (sequences from Chad and Lebanon), EGAD00001001440 (sequences from Greece), and EGAS00001001231 (SNP data from Chad, Lebanon, and Yemen).'' Go to: Web Resources European Genome-phenome Archive (EGA), www.ebi.ac.uk/ega/homeISOGG Y-DNA Haplotype Tree v.11.201, www.isogg.org/tree/edit: no good! special access needed Haber, Wells, Tyler-Smith et al (2016) Chad genetic diversity Am J Human Genetics 99, 1316-1324 reports from Tibbou genetic data. Their genomes are important for to establish continental substructure. Their locale is northwest of the old mega Lake Chad. Holocene trans Sahara traffic from south of the lake went around its west shores and thru the 'Tibesti' to get to Egy n Nub oases. Tibbou probably got bits of Holocene central and east Monsoon Sahara ancestry, Rock Ethiopian (Herodotus) ancestry, and Garamante ancestry. I would think you need Tibbou genomes in your data collection.
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 2, 2019 21:00:22 GMT -5
The dataset is NOT freely available...like some of the others
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jhosx
Craftsperson
Posts: 19
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Post by jhosx on Apr 3, 2019 17:57:22 GMT -5
I don't think there has been a single study that has spread more disinformation than the Krause study that purports that the Ancient Egyptians were somehow more related to the peoples of the Near East than any other african cultures, despite the fact that the pretty clearly migrated from the south and share more in common lingustically and culturally with Africa than with any Near Eastern cultures. Why is this clearly slanted study making so many waves when it doesn't even make sense? It's been debunked for the crap that it is, but people (I'm talking on instagram, on Reddit, and in real life) keep bringing it up like it's fact. I made an account just to vent my frustration. It's surreal. Who exactly is still promoting it? Also they didn't read the full study if they think that that 2017 study helped their case. That's the problem. Most people aren't reading the full study. They're just seeing outlets like CNN, The Verge, and MSNBC reporting on it with a headline that makes no mention of the suspicious specifics. When you try to bring stuff up in person or online, people are unbelieveably eager to fling articles with 2017 study that said that the Egyptians had "Eurasian" genetics of the Ancient Egyptians. I really think it's starting cement itself in the minds of the public, which is terrible for how malicious it was. A couple days ago I was talking to someone who said that they thought the this 2017 study was the first one to ever be done on Egyptian mummies. People who don't look into this kind of stuff are taking it as gospel, and it's easy to do when they plastered this study on every magazine in the world. You literally have white dudes screaming about how you're "rejecting science" when the science itself wasn't sound. They say something along the lines of "Science has proved," or, "It's recently been proven that", in some dumb attempt to shut everything down here. Even when you point out the flaws of the study, they feign ignorance. There's this one: www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
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jhosx
Craftsperson
Posts: 19
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Post by jhosx on Apr 3, 2019 18:07:53 GMT -5
The Abusir report, before publication, was referred to as the Kraus. Schueneman(sp) is the credited author/team leader. Both have previous works on Africa. Among many, there's also that 2017 Schlebusch ADMIXTURE graph that, though useful, is biased/poorly reference sample setted. Here's my K7 redux listing exemplar pops for each K. Remember, lower K's omit possible ancestries but hi-K's and truly varied reference sets will detect. Yte popular sensationalism, undeterred by the authors or the professional genomicist community, of the 'Kraus' is the backup for yte visual media to scientifically present West Eurasian racial propaganda as reality ala PBS (2018) First Civilizations Egyptian beginnings. egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2795/pbs-2018-nabta-playa-nekhen Note the last post uncover THE big failure of Afrocentricity.
www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010066#000020I miss Ase's memes. Don't forget African doesn't mean black. That's their default for North coastal Africa and Sahara by which they mean modern Rif and Kabyle types. One fools oneself thinking otherwise. Not at all do they mean last Pleistocene Inner Africans following their familiar grasslands expand to the north because of the African Humid Period's West African Monsoon shift driven by Earth's ~20,000 year wobble. SHOUT: hey Mensamind Tibbou samples available @ Haber (2016). Robust yourself! Exposed his interpretations' invalidity last year re 134:3 West Eurasian oversampling bias. I'm looking through that PBS thread and I am more confused than anything. How do they accept Nabta Playa while at the same time saying the Egyptians weren't black? The existance of Nabta Playa implies migration from the south, aka as far down as Ethiopia. I fail to see the logic here. Narmer was one of the blackest looking dudes out there. Why is he played by some scrawning Arab? It's madness.
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jhosx
Craftsperson
Posts: 19
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Post by jhosx on Apr 3, 2019 22:24:30 GMT -5
Does anyone know anyone other than Keita who criticize this study? There has been subtle racism in place for a long time where people won't accept the work of black people on Egypt. I think if someone less melanin enriched came at the paper, people would finally see how much of a joke it is. It's a sad, but unfortunate reality.
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Post by anansi on Apr 4, 2019 1:14:23 GMT -5
Does anyone know anyone other than Keita who criticize this study? There has been subtle racism in place for a long time where people won't accept the work of black people on Egypt. I think if someone less melanin enriched came at the paper, people would finally see how much of a joke it is. It's a sad, but unfortunate reality. I think there is, however I'm not into validation based off what ppl looked like, them having a white person to invalidate the study??..sorry not playing their game, as it is woefully unfair to Black scientists not to mention disrespectful, a study is either valid or not. Oh BTW Hawass is also critical of the study , but don't get it twisted.. His critique boils down to a non scientific rant and he is still with that Egyptian DNA is not European African or Arab..but Egyptian. Lol
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Post by djoser-xyyman on Apr 4, 2019 5:36:06 GMT -5
Hawass critique...source or link? Does anyone know anyone other than Keita who criticize this study? There has been subtle racism in place for a long time where people won't accept the work of black people on Egypt. I think if someone less melanin enriched came at the paper, people would finally see how much of a joke it is. It's a sad, but unfortunate reality. I think there is, however I'm not into validation based off what ppl looked like, them having a white person to invalidate the study??..sorry not playing their game, as it is woefully unfair to Black scientists not to mention disrespectful, a study is either valid or not. Oh BTW Hawass is also critical of the study , but don't get it twisted.. His critique boils down to a non scientific rant and he is still with that Egyptian DNA is not European African or Arab..but Egyptian. Lol
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