Post by louisvilleslugger on Apr 3, 2010 23:15:47 GMT -5
I'm currently engaged in a debate about Ancient Egypt in which my opponent a "biologist" is insisting that he is the only only qualified to interpret conclusive statements suchas:
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
or
"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
Now the above passages should be enough to indicate that the mentioned populations were basically the same people, but for some reason he singles out the ancient Saharans as being a mixed population due to back migration (12,000 years ago). He backs his claim with this study:
(Mitochondrial diversity in the Taforalt population (circa 12,000 BP, Morocco): a genetic approach to the study of the peopling of North Africa.)
ABSTRACT:
The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.
The genetic inheritance of Taforalt population (12,000 years) is composed of:
Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) and North African component (U6).
Genetic structure of Taforalt:
Eurasiatic Component : H, U, JT, V: 90.5%
North African component: U6: 9.5 %
■42, 8% (9/21) H or U
■14, 2% (3/21) JT
■2 individuals (9,5%) U6
In modern Human population, JT is presents only in:
1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco
1,8% of Sicilians,
1,6% of Italians.
...
The analysis of the diversity of mitochondrial DNA taken from the Taforalt population reveals the existance of 13 haplotypes. This haplotype diversity is similar to that of Europeans, and Mediterranean of the Mahgreb, with the exception of Algerian people ( the Berber Mozabites and non-Berbers) compared to whom they who have less haplotype diversity. The haplotype diversity of the Taforalt population is less than that of near Eastern populations.
...
…the hypothesis of a sub Saharan origin of the Ibero-Maurussians in the Sahara is not supprted by our results, which show a popultion more typical of the Mediterranean in North Africa for the past 12,000 years. Our results support the work based on cranio-facial and dental studies showing difference between Ibero-Maurussians and their contemporaries in the Sudan. the presence of a sub Saharan component in North Africa is due to migrations after 12,000 BP.
He also uses this study to convey that early Lower Egyptians, were mixed and of a "Eurasian stock" due to the Eurasian presence (due to the back migration) in the area prior to the peopling of the Nile Valley from the South.
Does anyone have any biological information regarding the Ancient Saharans to counter this mess, if so I'd gladly appreciate it? I've scoured the Egyptsearch search forums for reasearch but came up with nothing!
bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=141445&start=275
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
or
"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)
Now the above passages should be enough to indicate that the mentioned populations were basically the same people, but for some reason he singles out the ancient Saharans as being a mixed population due to back migration (12,000 years ago). He backs his claim with this study:
(Mitochondrial diversity in the Taforalt population (circa 12,000 BP, Morocco): a genetic approach to the study of the peopling of North Africa.)
ABSTRACT:
The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.
The genetic inheritance of Taforalt population (12,000 years) is composed of:
Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) and North African component (U6).
Genetic structure of Taforalt:
Eurasiatic Component : H, U, JT, V: 90.5%
North African component: U6: 9.5 %
■42, 8% (9/21) H or U
■14, 2% (3/21) JT
■2 individuals (9,5%) U6
In modern Human population, JT is presents only in:
1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco
1,8% of Sicilians,
1,6% of Italians.
...
The analysis of the diversity of mitochondrial DNA taken from the Taforalt population reveals the existance of 13 haplotypes. This haplotype diversity is similar to that of Europeans, and Mediterranean of the Mahgreb, with the exception of Algerian people ( the Berber Mozabites and non-Berbers) compared to whom they who have less haplotype diversity. The haplotype diversity of the Taforalt population is less than that of near Eastern populations.
...
…the hypothesis of a sub Saharan origin of the Ibero-Maurussians in the Sahara is not supprted by our results, which show a popultion more typical of the Mediterranean in North Africa for the past 12,000 years. Our results support the work based on cranio-facial and dental studies showing difference between Ibero-Maurussians and their contemporaries in the Sudan. the presence of a sub Saharan component in North Africa is due to migrations after 12,000 BP.
He also uses this study to convey that early Lower Egyptians, were mixed and of a "Eurasian stock" due to the Eurasian presence (due to the back migration) in the area prior to the peopling of the Nile Valley from the South.
Does anyone have any biological information regarding the Ancient Saharans to counter this mess, if so I'd gladly appreciate it? I've scoured the Egyptsearch search forums for reasearch but came up with nothing!
bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=141445&start=275