Blast from the past-taking on racists, Arabists, Antisemites
Jul 9, 2024 17:08:03 GMT -5
anansi likes this
Post by zarahan on Jul 9, 2024 17:08:03 GMT -5
Found this Old thread- from Nairaland 2015-2016- it was an election year.. assorted racists, Arabists and AntiSemites were out in strength..
But data from ES slapped them down, as in other venues, where other ES and Reloaded members took them on.
The racist below claimed Africans had no history, denied Egyptian Africanity, etc among other things.
Below some snippets from Nairaland drawing on that data, and debunking hat nonsense.
But as another election year approaches- they will reboot and be out again with more nonsense..
------------------------------ --------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 8:24pm On Dec 05, 2015
Pable Africanus says:
to your lumping the different peoples of Africa together...you have been writing arrant nonsense
The guy lacks knowledge in several areas, but check yoself. You too are guilty of writing arrant nonsense. So what if different peoples of Africa are lumped together? European historians lump people from Europe together all the time and call them "European." You have no problem with that. Its only when Africans follow the same procedure that then you get hysterical. Come off your pompous hypocrisy.
And on top of that, Africans share numerous commonalities- cultural, linguistic, DNA etc. The PN2 transition of Haplogroup E for example connects the majority of African males across the continent. You make these sweeping pronouncements as if you are some kind of authority but only demonstrate your ignorance.
QUOTE:
"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other"
-- (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
Pable Africanus says:
I have tried to point out to you the FACTS on ground...which cannot be wished away by supremacist claims.
But many of your so-called "facts" on the ground are not only erroneous but demonstrate your poor grasp of even elementary data about African and Africa. As shown in detail above and below.
The dark skinned peoples of Africa inhabit separate, unique and distinct cultural and political spaces!
Laughable nonsense. Why would dark skinned Africans inhabit "unique" and "separate" spaces? Do white people do likewise, or is it only black people in your ignorant fantasy world.? No dummy. They are not "separate." Dark skinned Africans appear everywhere from the Berbers of Algeria, to the pharaohs of Egypt to the Bantu of Zimbabwe. You cannot even grasp such an elementary fact in your ignorance. And by the way, Africans have the highest skin color diversity in the world- among other features- dummy.
![]()
You missed that....again and again and again.
Actually he "missed" yet another slab of BS you have been huffing and puffing about..
Pable Africanus says:
The culture and religion of Egypt did not rub off or pass on to sub saharan africans...not as much as we can see.
Ignoramus, your "vision" then is of a blind man. As shown by credible scholars again and again, the native religion of Egypt is based on African cultures and peoples near to Egypt- from the cattle cults to the king as divine rainmaker. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of African anthropology knows this. You apparently are clueless. Let's school you again:
"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
Pable Africanus says:
Same goes for the Nubians and Ethiopians.
The Xhosas, Zulus and other ethnic groups close to the Ethiopians did not even attempt to copy their
alphabeths.
Dude, the Nubians had their own alphabet in ancient times long before Christ. Ethiopia, which by the way IS in "sub-Saharan" Africa also had writing ling before Christ. In West Africa, writing scripts appear - the Nisibidi scripts, long before the Arabs appeared. You don't know what you are talking about- even though the issue has already been discussed on these forums.
www.nairaland.com/973985/nsibiri-pre-colonial-writing-south-eastern
" QUOTE:
"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many gold-weights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures."
--Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History
The Kanuris, Wolofs, Hausas, Mandikas...till today have no obelisks, carved basalt or granite sculptures of their kings or nobles.
This is supposed to be some kind of big "talking point"? The Swedes, Danes, British, Irish, Scots, or Germans never came up with any obelisks and such either in ancient times. How may giant stele appear in ultra white Sweden in ancient times? LMAO.. And in fact, "sub-Saharan" Africa, in the form of Axum, produced the largest or one of the largest stone monoliths in human history. What similar has been produced by ultra white Norway?
QUOTE:
(QUOTE:
"The early Askumites built in stone. They erected massive carved monoliths over the graves of their leaders (one was 33 meters long and weighed over 700 tonnes, arguably the largest single piece of worked stone ever hewn."
--John Reader, 1997. Africa: The Biography of the continent pg 208
image restore
Pable Africanus says:
Their are no hieroglyphs extant on walls or scrolls attributable to any sub saharan ethnic group alive today.
Laughable BS. Ancient Nubian via the empire of Meroe, extended into "sub-Saharan" Africa as part of the Kushite southern administration, a fact obscured by the southern spread of the desert for centuries. And Axum, in the Horn is also "sub-Saharan". And by the way- Nubians have been in Egypt for thousands of years, including not only the founding period, but being pharaohs as well, long BEFORE the 25th Dynasty.
![]()
Cos they knew sub saharan Africans neither wrote nor read.
Actually dude, researchers have known for some time about writing in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including Kush/Meroe, the Horn and the Nsibidi script systems that existed before the Arabs showed up. It is you who keep continually manifesting YOUR ignorance.
![]()
Neither did any ethnic group in sub saharan Africa have any oral history even remotely near anything Egyptian or Nubian.
Hapless bufoon, the empire of Kush was in part a sub-Saharan one, with both written and oral records. the empires of the Horn are also "sub-Saharan." An ignoramus like you does not even knw such simple African geography.
If you have any modicum of intelligence you should have figured out that the logical thing to do as Black Africans in such a scenario would be to start documenting what we only have....ORAL HISTORIES.
lol, YOUR laughable ignorance has already been exposed and debunked above..
Pable Africanus says:
Africans in general have no documented histories....and that's a fact!
Are you always this dumb, or making a special effort today, oh thou fount of bogus "fact?"
All your ranting and quoting has not included any African chief, elder or king you interviewed to gain any knowledge.
He doesn't need to go out and interview any "chief." Credible research by mainstream scholars already make the case, as shown above.
Your knowledge is entirely made up of stuff and research done by WHITE MEN.
That is not a bad thing on its own...but as I have been pointing out to you...its a sign that your history is lost to you.
lol, what so now you supposed to be some kind of "black nationalist"? Get outta here with that bogus act- you aren't fooling anybody. No true black nationalist would advance the bullshiit you are doing. You have tripped yourself up and given away the game. But let's play along for now. So what if he uses white scholars? Cheikh Anta Diop quoted white scholars all the time, so did George James, so did Marcus Garvey. If you have a problem with things written by white people, why are you here, writing in English, a white man's language, and spouting the ignorance of white racists like Africans have no documented history... lol
If you cannot reference any native source or living source of any so called African greatness bullsh.it you keep doodling all over the place...I'd say go join the NOI and keep living in lala land!
Again you demonstrate sheer ignorance. There are already plenty of "native" sources about Africa n history. he Egyptians left plenty behind, As did the Kushites. As did the empires of the Horn, as did localized West African cultures through their specialists like blacksmiths that kept some nsibidi scripts, to the well documented oral histories f the West African griots. You simply do not know what you are talking about, and spout off like you are such a big expert, when your own lack of knowledge keeps getting exposed time and time again, as detailed above. Next time, learn some elementary African history and geography before presuming to spout off about it.
End of today's lesson.
1 Like
---------------------------------------- -------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by PabloAfricanus(m): 3:06pm On Dec 12, 2015
@zarahanair
Are you that cowardly?
Switch back to your earlier moniker if you wanna reply me with a straight face.
And you keep on confirming my assertions again and again...Kush this, Axum here, Egypt that...the WHOLE WORLD KNOWS the history of Kush/Axum/Egypt...and it is not synonymous with sub saharan africa. Except maybe in your parallel fantasy african content.
You see...you practically worship the achievements of those ancient peoples!
I can see how much you wish there was a temple to Ra, Horus or Hathor somewhere in ya village where you could refer me to view some scrolls in nsibidi abi na ancient RosskyVillage script
Have you googled what the heliacal rising of Sirius is yet? Or when are you gonna show the equivalents of the temples found in Nubia TODAY...in ya fantasy sub saharan west africa?
You.are.dull dude.and.grossly.ignorant.of.african.history.
Conflating desire with reality seems to be ya stock in trade.
I'd not bother to point out to you the silliness of all that mosaic mish mash you put up there...cos I doubt if you are aware of how offpoint your arguments are.
Since you keep on avoiding my attempts to learn from your cowardly majesty...here let me reproduce ma questions.
1) The ancient Egyptians and Nubians all had a stellar religion. They worshipped the planets, stars and constellations. We've always been curious as to what existing African peoples have in relation to ancient Egypt. So what do Black Africans call Sothis and how did they calculate the heliacal rising of Sopdet(Greek Sothis, Roman Sirius)?
2) The Greeks had dealings with ancient Egyptians and ancient Greek historians have documented histories of Egyptian kings,religion, priests and cultural practices. If as you asserted Black Africans gave the Europeans civilization, then the source of a river should have even more waters flowing...right? So can we see Black African written history or hieoroglyphs or some oral history about the ancient Europeans?
You know since almost all known civilized peoples kept written records...Africa should not be an exception. After all the Egyptians and Nubians kept records?
3) Give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
4) Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi by Black Africans extant anywhere in Black African that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates. Also do not quote any European.
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Nobody: 3:31pm On Dec 31, 2015
First, break free globalized/western- friendly economic system, create our independent and African centered economic system. This will not be easy because countries that do not adhere to the WTO/Western oriented policies are punished by embargoes, seclusion, and are politically crippled.
Second, empowerment of Africans.
Africans need to be trained towards self realisation, not to be perpetual employees, dependent, and our school curricula needs to change. People need to learn things that will help them start their own businesses, multiply profits from farms which most Africans have, or better their livestock production. With this is an element of environmentalism.
Third, Change our political western imported system.
The root of all government corruption, stealing, pillaging...is competition. Tribal rivalry. State resources are perceived as a means of benefiting of the rulers kin/tribe and as a weapon against the rest. It's in Africa where you find winners of election making careless statements like "it's our time (to eat)"
Democracy needs to be seriously recast to factor in and make election results do not sideline a whole people/tribe. Democracy in Africa is a tribal contest. It is the reason why, after a democratic election, Burundi is now up in flames.
The rule that majority wins is inapplicable in Africa. Majority will always mean the most populous tribes.
Culturally, Africa needs to break free of over dependence on the west for news broadcasts, films, literature etc. It is through these means that subliminal messages of supremacy of the West and inferiority of Africa(ns) is passed.
Indoctrination of ideals, beliefs, propaganda and justification of western policies toward Africa also happens through these means. That is why Africans are slowly turning western in culture, speech, music, dressing, colour, hair, etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 6:35am On Apr 11, 2016
PabloAfricanus:
Also do not quote any European.
Puhleeze.. ha hahahah,, first of all, if you don't like "quoting Europeans" why are you writing in English, a European language, and yoself quoting or referencing European works? What sources are YOU using in your "questions"? List them please, and do not use any European sources. Let's apply your own standard- to yourself. lmao.. And I have no "other" user name.
As to your "questions" lets expose your nonsense, but first your absurdities and lack of elementary knowledge are to be exposed:
he WHOLE WORLD KNOWS the history of Kush/Axum/Egypt...and it is not synonymous with sub saharan africa. Except maybe in your parallel fantasy african content.
You are hopeless. Learn some elementary geography. Axum IS in Sub-Saharan Africa, as is part of the kingdom of Kush. And the foundational population of ancient Egypt came from south of the Sahara as credible anthropologists and archaeologists show, and even non-specialist classicists like Mary Lefkowitz acknowledges. Sorry, you have just been debunked. But let's school you further..
Or when are you gonna show the equivalents of the temples found in Nubia TODAY...in ya fantasy sub saharan west africa?
Your "talking point" here fails because it is hypocritical. You conveniently don't apply the same approach to indigenous ancient northern Europe. No equivalent of the huge Greek temples appear in indigenous ancient northern Europe either. There is no equivalent of the Parthenon for example in ancient Sweden home of ultra pure white "Nordics". Massive carved statutes to Zeus do not appear in ancient Germany either, another "Nordic" poster boy. So if you are gonna play the hypocritical game and try to imply that West Africa needs such things for "validation" then the same must be applied to indigenous ancient northern Europe, which does not have any of such "validating" constructions either. "Sub-Saharan" Africa by the way produced the largest single carved stone monolith in human history (John Reader-1998- Africa: The Biography of a continent)
Now let's get to your so-called "questions"..
1) The ancient Egyptians and Nubians all had a stellar religion. They worshipped the planets, stars and constellations. We've always been curious as to what existing African peoples have in relation to ancient Egypt. So what do Black Africans call Sothis and how did they calculate the heliacal rising of Sopdet(Greek Sothis, Roman Sirius)?
Clueless one- the ancient Egyptians ARE Black Africans, as are the Nubians, as are Ethiopians, as shown time and time again by credible mainstream scholars. There goes your "talking point Number 1".. lmao..
2) The Greeks had dealings with ancient Egyptians and ancient Greek historians have documented histories of Egyptian kings,religion, priests and cultural practices. If as you asserted Black Africans gave the Europeans civilization, then the source of a river should have even more waters flowing...right? So can we see Black African written history or hieoroglyphs or some oral history about the ancient Europeans? You know since almost all known civilized peoples kept written records...Africa should not be an exception. After all the Egyptians and Nubians kept records?
I did not "assert" that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" - so come off that fake strawman you are setting up to "refute." You aren't fooling anyone with that nonsense. But let's play along- for your own strawman trips you up. Yes the black Africans, including Ethiopians, who by the way are "sub-Saharan" did keep records, and they are recorded in numerous tombs and temples in the Nile Valley, along with surviving papyri, books and admin records, and said records do mention European locations with which they traded like Greece for example. Whoops- there goes your "talking point Number 2".. lol..
3) Give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
The Black Africans of the Nile Valley recorded said planets in their own language on the walls of tombs, temples and admin records as already noted above.. Look up the Egyptian and Nubian languages yourself. The burden of proof is on you. And the peoples of Ethiopia have long identified said planets in their own ancient Geez language. Look it up yourself, no one is going to spoonfeed you.
https://tseday./2008/09/14/ethiopian-astronomy/
www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/heavens.html#obj99.1
4) Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi by Black Africans extant anywhere in Black African that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates. Also do not quote any European.
I have already given credible scholarship that testifies to the use of Nsibidi for histories, court records etc, before Europeans came. It is quite enough. The burden of proof is on you to disprove what the scholars report. And If you are so concerned by EUropean sources- then be consistent and apply the same rule to yourself- you should not be using them either. As to Nsibidi:
"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many goldweights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures."
--Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History
and
Historian Ogbu Kalu described the functions of the Nsibidi literature more broadly to comprise “identity label, public notice, private warning, declaration of taboos [and] amorous messages, reckoning of goods and money, and method of keeping of records and decorations.”
Kalu, O. 1980. “Writing in Pre-Colonial Africa: A Case Study of Nsibidi.” In African Cultural Development. O. Kalu, ed., 76-83.
Trying to set up fake strawman arguments by claiming some other user account started them, and that you are "replying" to "refute" them fails miserably. They still remain strawmen. Deal with the data at hand, which debunks your claims and approach.
1 Like
---------------------------------------- -----------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 6:08am On Oct 29, 2016
PabloAfricanus says:
I will rehash in plain language my points for your benefit.
You can "rehash" all the points you claim- they still remain dubious as already demonstrated in detail above.
First off, it was not the Europeans who are "claiming" ancient Egypt using "sources" foreign to them.
THEY conquered and ruled Egypt...severally under the Greeks, Romans, French and English.
And they have better records and histories about Egypt than anyone in sub saharan Africa.
You could start by disproving that point.
LMAO. Attempting to wriggle away from the exposure of your nonsense- it will not work. At issue above, among many other things, is your claim lamenting use of "European" sources by credible African/Afro-American students and writers. So again, if you are so concerned about "European" sources, why are you yourself writing in English and also using European sources?
And Afri/Afro_amer students are not using sources "foreign" to Egypt when they discuss the African foundation of Kemet. In fact, their STARTING POINT is the documentation left behind by the peoples of Kemet themselves. We know for example that the Dynasties sprung from the south, not because of "foreign" sources, but because the Egyptians themselves said so. On top of the written sources are archaeology data. These data whether they be inscriptions, pottery, tools, or buildings are themselves the product of the people of Kemet. They produced their own documentation. And they clearly show that African foundation- as expert mainstream scholars following the data acknowledge. You keep trying to downplay or deny this data, and keep on failing miserably.
Sorry, you are debunked again.
[image below]
To illustrate the fact that this topic is way over you, the Europeans have the AVAILABLE WRITTEN works of European historians
like Herodotus, Aristotle, Socrates, Julius Caesar to reference when they discuss Egypt or any other peoples they had historical dealings with.
Wrong again. Kemet is thousands of years older than Herodotus, Aristotle, etc. ANY STUDY OF KEMET BEGINS WITH THE WRITINGS AND DATA LEFT BEHIND BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Only a dummy would begin with Herodotus or Aristotle. LMAO, get a clue dude...
So they have never had any need to quote you, your grandfather or your village chiefs...who by the way they know NEVER left any WRITTEN records available ANYWHERE for referencing.
Laughable BS. As already shown the people of Kemet left behind their own written record. The people of Nubia and Cush also left behind their own written record, and the Cushite empire is partly a sub-Saharan entity. The people of Auxum in NE Africa which also is in Sub-Saharan Africa left behind plenty of writing. So why would these people need to quote Herodotus?
Your colonial masters produced comprehensive and publicly available "intelligence reports" on all the tribes/ethnic groups they pacified.
Their records, photographs and comments are largely what you and your ilk fall back on when they need academic references on precolonial history.
Sign, completely off base. Any credible student of Kemet begins with the documentation left behind by the peoples of the Nile Valley including Nubia. They don't begin with colonial administrators.
So, the joke is on you. The onus is on you to prove to me why you cannot tell your story without referencing "external" or "foreign" sources.
Hapless one, I have already proven you wrong multiple times above. We know from Egyptian records forr example that the dynasties started in the south and rose to dominate all of Egypt, and were not the product of "wandering Caucasoids." Not only is the joke on YOU, but you yoself are a joke that cannot grasp such elementary matters.
A mere challenge to tell me what any of the over 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria or any of the ethnic groups in sub Saharan africa call the Sphinx
How laughable, and irrelevant. Why would Nigerians have to call the Sphinx anything? Your diversionary tactic fails. Let's get back to your failures- you cannot even grasp elementary geography of Africa, and cannot even grasp the fact that peoples of the Nile Valley documented their own history- which is the starting point for any inquiry. Irrelevant trivia about what Nigerians call the SPhinx is just that- irrelevance. If Nigerians call the creature "sphinx" using the Greek language label- OK they called it "Sphinx". A challenge for you is the say what the Egyptians called the same creature in their own language.
You are the one who has been playing the validation game. Not me. I have reiterated that going the route you lots are following is just
playing "catch up" with the whites. A son of a rich man only needs to display his father's wealth. No need for long arguments or theses or validation.
The Swedes you mentioned do not go about claiming Rome or her imperial history.
Neither are they going about coming up with claims and counter claims about the Greek Pantheon.
The temples of Odin and Freya at Upsalla are there for anyone who wants to know about ancient Swedish history.
You are hopelessly confused. There is no "catch up" to be played. The hard data on the African foundation of Egypt is a fact, hard facts verified by credible mainstream scholarship- which itself begins with, and depends on, the hard data left behind by the peoples of the Nile Valley. Africans don't have to "catch up" on anything- the facts are what they are. And there may be temples to Odin and Freya in Sweden, but why is it that you do not demand they produce a temple to Zeus to validate that they are EUropean? Not only are you confused, you are hypocritical as well. You seem to demand that pyramids appear in Nigeria to "prove" Egyptians are Africans, but demand nothing equivalent for Europe where your beloved white people are concerned. Why the hypocritical double standard?
You lots are the ones trying so hard to prove ancestory/links between ancient Egypt, Nubia...and the numerous ethnic groups in sub Saharan African.
There is nothing to "try" proving. The facts already demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians share several links with sib-Saharan Africans- whether it be skeletal data, dental, cultural or genetic. Sorry- you yet again fail.
The fact that you consider Kush, Axum, Nubia...a people long gone from the pages of living history, whose only claim to having lived are the numerous artifacts they left...are an extension of the living sub Saharan peoples of Africa...show the level of your inferiority complex. Let me help you out.
Laughable rubbish. Let me help YOU out dummy. Axum IS in Sub-Saharan Africa. Lol.. And the Kushite empire extended down into what is today "sub-Saharan" Africa. Your ignorance constantly keeps being demonstrated. You certainly could use some "help."..
[image below]
A better way to "expose" my so-called "lack of elementary knowledge" would go along these lines:
"Come to Douala,Bini, Kano, Kumasi, Ouagadogou,Kinshasa and see the same pyramids available in Nubia. The same hieroglyphs you see in the tombs of Kerma and Nubia are faithfully replicated all across the peoples of the african continent. You would show and prove that the same way pyramids and megalithic structures found in Egypt were found to be the same as the ones found in Nubia...
LMAO another round of rubbish, and another exposure of your hypocrisy.. Why do pyramids have to appear in Kumasi to "prove" anything? Let's flip your hypocrisy back on you. How come huge classical temples to the Greek gods do not appear in northern Europe to prove, as you laughably say, "the unbroken lineage" of Europeaness or whiteness? Can you take on my challenge hypocrite?
Are you not proud of the Wolofs, Fulanis, Mandinkas, Bantus, Yorubas and Zulus?
Are the The Black Africans of the Nile Valley the only people with any history, culture or achievements worth celebrating?
LMAO-you are not fooling anyone with your childish diversionary tactics. Any credible student of African history acknowledges and celebrates that the Wolofs, Fulani, Zulu etc are PART of the overall African mosaic, just as Kemet is PART of that mosaic. Whoever said they "only" study the Nile Valley? You are not fooling anyone with your silly strawman.
And there YOU go again with your hypocrisy. If people want to study the Black Africans of the Nile Valley they are perfectly entitled to- they have credible scholarship at hand as already shown. And they ALSO study other areas of Africa as well, as groaning library shelves show, which they are also entitled to do. Who made you "arbiter" of what students of African history are "supposed" to study?
Why is your "approval" worth anything?
1) You still have not told me what the Wolofs or Yorubas call Venus or Jupiter. On demand you can actually google what the Indians, Chinese, Aztec, Mayas, Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, Romans, Greeks,Chinese...and Ethiopians...call any of the known planets in the solar system.
LOL your diversionary blatherings still fail. You are the one who keeps on denying or downplaying the African foundations of Egypt, and you are the one who demands that unless pyramids show up somewhere in West Africa, then they are not part of an African reality or mosaic. Yet hypocritically you do not apply the same reasoning to white Europe. Your diversioanry "challenges" fail. The burden of proof is on you to refute the detailed scholarship on the African foundation demonstrates. And while you are at it- you have not told me what the Egyptians called Venus or Jupiter etc in their own language.
2) You asserted that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" by your all the proofs and claims of your Afrocentric postulations, which I'd rather not rehash.
Actually I didn't. That is your diversionary strawman in an attempt to wriggle away and provide cover for the thorough debunking of your nonsensical claims, and exposure of your hypocrisy, as detailed herein.
3) Why are you just stuck on only the Ethiopians, Nubians and Egyptians? Are they the only groups of BLACK PEOPLES living in Africa?
Does your own ethnic group not count for anything?
Actually all the above are "my own ethnic group" Sorry... And who ever said they are the "only" groups of black people in Africa? This is yet another strawman to cover up your exposure.
If you claim to be a master's degree or a bachelor's degree holder, when challenged to produce your thesis or project work...would it make sense to start quoting the works of "other students" or "colleagues of yours" as evidence that you actually completed a final year thesis?
Why not produce a printed copy of your thesis to silence all doubters once and for all?
LOL you are a bit thick. We do not have to use "other student" anything. The peoples of the Nile Valley provided us plenty of documentation and data that we start with, and that we depend on to make inquiries and draw conclusions. The "printed copies" so to speak, are already in place, produced in situ by the Africans of the Nile Valley.
I am familiar with Ibibio, Efik, Igbo and Kalabari lands. I understand the culture and history. I am even a fluent speaker of several Nigerian languages. You on the other hand, appear to have acquired your knowledge off the internet.
LOL, I have already laid out detailed scholarship debunking almost every claim you attempt to make. Why should anyone rely on your assertion that you "are familiar" with this and that? Says who? You? One already debunked thoroughly? But let's play along with your supposed expertise.
Your knowledge of the so called Nsibidi is off the mark.
So you say, but can produce nothing that can refute the hard scholarship already shown. You keep saying such and such is "known to you." What YOU CLAIM to know is irrelevant. What COUNTS is credible scholarship and facts that you can bring to the table. So far all you have produced is your own dubious self-assertions bout how you are "familiar" with this, and how such and such is "known" to you". Seriously dude?
But the point apparently eludes you. You do not know anyone who writes in Nsibidi. If you had to read a text written in Nsibidi today to save your life, you'd be a dead man.
But the point already made eludes YOU. The question is not if Nsibidi is active today as it was in the past. The entire point is that the Nisbidi writing system existed in Africa before the coming of Arabs and Europeans. You downplayed or denied this earlier in this thread, and when debunked, you try a diversionary shift as to whether Nsibidi is active or not today. No one is being fooled by your diversions.
Because Nsibidi never functioned as a general system of writing or record keeping for the Ejagham, Ekoi, Efik, Ibibio and Igbo peoples who used it. There is no single record, book or scroll...with a name...available today that was written in Nsibidi before, during or after precolonial times.
There you go again with your hypocritical double-standards. Samples of writing appear the world over without them having to be bound in a book or scroll to "validate" them. Books or scrolls do not always survive intact. Furthermore "books" or "scrolls" are often made by compiling of scraps of writings here and there from oral narratives into a whole. This scholars have done. Who says they have to create any "book" with a "name" to "prove" something? The earliest full written copy of the epic European oral poem "Beowulf" for example exists without a name or title. It is only years later that someone decided to slap a "name" on it and this is what it is known by today. OK for Europeans- you give them a pass. But when it comes to Africa you hypocritically demand that some "book with a name" must be produced to "validate" African peoples' efforts.
Scholars have compiled Nsibidi into a number of collections with "names" as shown below. Yet it is only in Africa that you demand "something with a name" to "prove" that African writing systems existed. Such hypocrisy speaks volumes. I have already given the scholarship, and examples of Nsibidi have been compiled by the scholars in question. They burden of proof is on you who (a) deny that any writing system existed before the Arabs or Europeans, and (b) now deny that Nsibidi writings exist. Credible scholars refute your claim. Your self-assertion bout how you "are familiar" with this and that or how you are "fluent in several Nigerian languages" are mere diversionary strawmen. They don't mean diddly. The onus is on you to prove credible scholars wrong. Just taking your word for it bout how such and such is "known to me" is not good enough. Why should anyone take your word for it when your lack of knowledge and hypocrisy has been already comprehensively demonstrated above?
[image below]
Maybe you could be the first author to write in Nsibidi. Care to take on the challenge?
Why should anyone take up irrelevant and diversionary "challenges" when you have failed repeatedly to back up your claims and have been comprehensively debunked? And there are complete writings in Nsibidi collected by scholars, including stories and court cases, as already referenced.
Rather you ended up quoting other peoples research and slinging as usual a mish mash of Google search results.
There is no Google "mish mash," only hard scholarship and data that expose your lack of knowledge and your hypocrisy.
But data from ES slapped them down, as in other venues, where other ES and Reloaded members took them on.
The racist below claimed Africans had no history, denied Egyptian Africanity, etc among other things.
Below some snippets from Nairaland drawing on that data, and debunking hat nonsense.
But as another election year approaches- they will reboot and be out again with more nonsense..
------------------------------ --------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 8:24pm On Dec 05, 2015
Pable Africanus says:
to your lumping the different peoples of Africa together...you have been writing arrant nonsense
The guy lacks knowledge in several areas, but check yoself. You too are guilty of writing arrant nonsense. So what if different peoples of Africa are lumped together? European historians lump people from Europe together all the time and call them "European." You have no problem with that. Its only when Africans follow the same procedure that then you get hysterical. Come off your pompous hypocrisy.
And on top of that, Africans share numerous commonalities- cultural, linguistic, DNA etc. The PN2 transition of Haplogroup E for example connects the majority of African males across the continent. You make these sweeping pronouncements as if you are some kind of authority but only demonstrate your ignorance.
QUOTE:
"But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other"
-- (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
Pable Africanus says:
I have tried to point out to you the FACTS on ground...which cannot be wished away by supremacist claims.
But many of your so-called "facts" on the ground are not only erroneous but demonstrate your poor grasp of even elementary data about African and Africa. As shown in detail above and below.
The dark skinned peoples of Africa inhabit separate, unique and distinct cultural and political spaces!
Laughable nonsense. Why would dark skinned Africans inhabit "unique" and "separate" spaces? Do white people do likewise, or is it only black people in your ignorant fantasy world.? No dummy. They are not "separate." Dark skinned Africans appear everywhere from the Berbers of Algeria, to the pharaohs of Egypt to the Bantu of Zimbabwe. You cannot even grasp such an elementary fact in your ignorance. And by the way, Africans have the highest skin color diversity in the world- among other features- dummy.
You missed that....again and again and again.
Actually he "missed" yet another slab of BS you have been huffing and puffing about..
Pable Africanus says:
The culture and religion of Egypt did not rub off or pass on to sub saharan africans...not as much as we can see.
Ignoramus, your "vision" then is of a blind man. As shown by credible scholars again and again, the native religion of Egypt is based on African cultures and peoples near to Egypt- from the cattle cults to the king as divine rainmaker. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of African anthropology knows this. You apparently are clueless. Let's school you again:
"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
Pable Africanus says:
Same goes for the Nubians and Ethiopians.
The Xhosas, Zulus and other ethnic groups close to the Ethiopians did not even attempt to copy their
alphabeths.
Dude, the Nubians had their own alphabet in ancient times long before Christ. Ethiopia, which by the way IS in "sub-Saharan" Africa also had writing ling before Christ. In West Africa, writing scripts appear - the Nisibidi scripts, long before the Arabs appeared. You don't know what you are talking about- even though the issue has already been discussed on these forums.
www.nairaland.com/973985/nsibiri-pre-colonial-writing-south-eastern
" QUOTE:
"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many gold-weights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures."
--Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History
The Kanuris, Wolofs, Hausas, Mandikas...till today have no obelisks, carved basalt or granite sculptures of their kings or nobles.
This is supposed to be some kind of big "talking point"? The Swedes, Danes, British, Irish, Scots, or Germans never came up with any obelisks and such either in ancient times. How may giant stele appear in ultra white Sweden in ancient times? LMAO.. And in fact, "sub-Saharan" Africa, in the form of Axum, produced the largest or one of the largest stone monoliths in human history. What similar has been produced by ultra white Norway?
QUOTE:
(QUOTE:
"The early Askumites built in stone. They erected massive carved monoliths over the graves of their leaders (one was 33 meters long and weighed over 700 tonnes, arguably the largest single piece of worked stone ever hewn."
--John Reader, 1997. Africa: The Biography of the continent pg 208
image restore
Pable Africanus says:
Their are no hieroglyphs extant on walls or scrolls attributable to any sub saharan ethnic group alive today.
Laughable BS. Ancient Nubian via the empire of Meroe, extended into "sub-Saharan" Africa as part of the Kushite southern administration, a fact obscured by the southern spread of the desert for centuries. And Axum, in the Horn is also "sub-Saharan". And by the way- Nubians have been in Egypt for thousands of years, including not only the founding period, but being pharaohs as well, long BEFORE the 25th Dynasty.
Cos they knew sub saharan Africans neither wrote nor read.
Actually dude, researchers have known for some time about writing in "sub-Saharan" Africa, including Kush/Meroe, the Horn and the Nsibidi script systems that existed before the Arabs showed up. It is you who keep continually manifesting YOUR ignorance.
Neither did any ethnic group in sub saharan Africa have any oral history even remotely near anything Egyptian or Nubian.
Hapless bufoon, the empire of Kush was in part a sub-Saharan one, with both written and oral records. the empires of the Horn are also "sub-Saharan." An ignoramus like you does not even knw such simple African geography.
If you have any modicum of intelligence you should have figured out that the logical thing to do as Black Africans in such a scenario would be to start documenting what we only have....ORAL HISTORIES.
lol, YOUR laughable ignorance has already been exposed and debunked above..
Pable Africanus says:
Africans in general have no documented histories....and that's a fact!
Are you always this dumb, or making a special effort today, oh thou fount of bogus "fact?"
All your ranting and quoting has not included any African chief, elder or king you interviewed to gain any knowledge.
He doesn't need to go out and interview any "chief." Credible research by mainstream scholars already make the case, as shown above.
Your knowledge is entirely made up of stuff and research done by WHITE MEN.
That is not a bad thing on its own...but as I have been pointing out to you...its a sign that your history is lost to you.
lol, what so now you supposed to be some kind of "black nationalist"? Get outta here with that bogus act- you aren't fooling anybody. No true black nationalist would advance the bullshiit you are doing. You have tripped yourself up and given away the game. But let's play along for now. So what if he uses white scholars? Cheikh Anta Diop quoted white scholars all the time, so did George James, so did Marcus Garvey. If you have a problem with things written by white people, why are you here, writing in English, a white man's language, and spouting the ignorance of white racists like Africans have no documented history... lol
If you cannot reference any native source or living source of any so called African greatness bullsh.it you keep doodling all over the place...I'd say go join the NOI and keep living in lala land!
Again you demonstrate sheer ignorance. There are already plenty of "native" sources about Africa n history. he Egyptians left plenty behind, As did the Kushites. As did the empires of the Horn, as did localized West African cultures through their specialists like blacksmiths that kept some nsibidi scripts, to the well documented oral histories f the West African griots. You simply do not know what you are talking about, and spout off like you are such a big expert, when your own lack of knowledge keeps getting exposed time and time again, as detailed above. Next time, learn some elementary African history and geography before presuming to spout off about it.
End of today's lesson.
1 Like
---------------------------------------- -------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by PabloAfricanus(m): 3:06pm On Dec 12, 2015
@zarahanair
Are you that cowardly?
Switch back to your earlier moniker if you wanna reply me with a straight face.
And you keep on confirming my assertions again and again...Kush this, Axum here, Egypt that...the WHOLE WORLD KNOWS the history of Kush/Axum/Egypt...and it is not synonymous with sub saharan africa. Except maybe in your parallel fantasy african content.
You see...you practically worship the achievements of those ancient peoples!
I can see how much you wish there was a temple to Ra, Horus or Hathor somewhere in ya village where you could refer me to view some scrolls in nsibidi abi na ancient RosskyVillage script
Have you googled what the heliacal rising of Sirius is yet? Or when are you gonna show the equivalents of the temples found in Nubia TODAY...in ya fantasy sub saharan west africa?
You.are.dull dude.and.grossly.ignorant.of.african.history.
Conflating desire with reality seems to be ya stock in trade.
I'd not bother to point out to you the silliness of all that mosaic mish mash you put up there...cos I doubt if you are aware of how offpoint your arguments are.
Since you keep on avoiding my attempts to learn from your cowardly majesty...here let me reproduce ma questions.
1) The ancient Egyptians and Nubians all had a stellar religion. They worshipped the planets, stars and constellations. We've always been curious as to what existing African peoples have in relation to ancient Egypt. So what do Black Africans call Sothis and how did they calculate the heliacal rising of Sopdet(Greek Sothis, Roman Sirius)?
2) The Greeks had dealings with ancient Egyptians and ancient Greek historians have documented histories of Egyptian kings,religion, priests and cultural practices. If as you asserted Black Africans gave the Europeans civilization, then the source of a river should have even more waters flowing...right? So can we see Black African written history or hieoroglyphs or some oral history about the ancient Europeans?
You know since almost all known civilized peoples kept written records...Africa should not be an exception. After all the Egyptians and Nubians kept records?
3) Give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
4) Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi by Black Africans extant anywhere in Black African that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates. Also do not quote any European.
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Nobody: 3:31pm On Dec 31, 2015
First, break free globalized/western- friendly economic system, create our independent and African centered economic system. This will not be easy because countries that do not adhere to the WTO/Western oriented policies are punished by embargoes, seclusion, and are politically crippled.
Second, empowerment of Africans.
Africans need to be trained towards self realisation, not to be perpetual employees, dependent, and our school curricula needs to change. People need to learn things that will help them start their own businesses, multiply profits from farms which most Africans have, or better their livestock production. With this is an element of environmentalism.
Third, Change our political western imported system.
The root of all government corruption, stealing, pillaging...is competition. Tribal rivalry. State resources are perceived as a means of benefiting of the rulers kin/tribe and as a weapon against the rest. It's in Africa where you find winners of election making careless statements like "it's our time (to eat)"
Democracy needs to be seriously recast to factor in and make election results do not sideline a whole people/tribe. Democracy in Africa is a tribal contest. It is the reason why, after a democratic election, Burundi is now up in flames.
The rule that majority wins is inapplicable in Africa. Majority will always mean the most populous tribes.
Culturally, Africa needs to break free of over dependence on the west for news broadcasts, films, literature etc. It is through these means that subliminal messages of supremacy of the West and inferiority of Africa(ns) is passed.
Indoctrination of ideals, beliefs, propaganda and justification of western policies toward Africa also happens through these means. That is why Africans are slowly turning western in culture, speech, music, dressing, colour, hair, etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 6:35am On Apr 11, 2016
PabloAfricanus:
Also do not quote any European.
Puhleeze.. ha hahahah,, first of all, if you don't like "quoting Europeans" why are you writing in English, a European language, and yoself quoting or referencing European works? What sources are YOU using in your "questions"? List them please, and do not use any European sources. Let's apply your own standard- to yourself. lmao.. And I have no "other" user name.
As to your "questions" lets expose your nonsense, but first your absurdities and lack of elementary knowledge are to be exposed:
he WHOLE WORLD KNOWS the history of Kush/Axum/Egypt...and it is not synonymous with sub saharan africa. Except maybe in your parallel fantasy african content.
You are hopeless. Learn some elementary geography. Axum IS in Sub-Saharan Africa, as is part of the kingdom of Kush. And the foundational population of ancient Egypt came from south of the Sahara as credible anthropologists and archaeologists show, and even non-specialist classicists like Mary Lefkowitz acknowledges. Sorry, you have just been debunked. But let's school you further..
Or when are you gonna show the equivalents of the temples found in Nubia TODAY...in ya fantasy sub saharan west africa?
Your "talking point" here fails because it is hypocritical. You conveniently don't apply the same approach to indigenous ancient northern Europe. No equivalent of the huge Greek temples appear in indigenous ancient northern Europe either. There is no equivalent of the Parthenon for example in ancient Sweden home of ultra pure white "Nordics". Massive carved statutes to Zeus do not appear in ancient Germany either, another "Nordic" poster boy. So if you are gonna play the hypocritical game and try to imply that West Africa needs such things for "validation" then the same must be applied to indigenous ancient northern Europe, which does not have any of such "validating" constructions either. "Sub-Saharan" Africa by the way produced the largest single carved stone monolith in human history (John Reader-1998- Africa: The Biography of a continent)
Now let's get to your so-called "questions"..
1) The ancient Egyptians and Nubians all had a stellar religion. They worshipped the planets, stars and constellations. We've always been curious as to what existing African peoples have in relation to ancient Egypt. So what do Black Africans call Sothis and how did they calculate the heliacal rising of Sopdet(Greek Sothis, Roman Sirius)?
Clueless one- the ancient Egyptians ARE Black Africans, as are the Nubians, as are Ethiopians, as shown time and time again by credible mainstream scholars. There goes your "talking point Number 1".. lmao..
2) The Greeks had dealings with ancient Egyptians and ancient Greek historians have documented histories of Egyptian kings,religion, priests and cultural practices. If as you asserted Black Africans gave the Europeans civilization, then the source of a river should have even more waters flowing...right? So can we see Black African written history or hieoroglyphs or some oral history about the ancient Europeans? You know since almost all known civilized peoples kept written records...Africa should not be an exception. After all the Egyptians and Nubians kept records?
I did not "assert" that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" - so come off that fake strawman you are setting up to "refute." You aren't fooling anyone with that nonsense. But let's play along- for your own strawman trips you up. Yes the black Africans, including Ethiopians, who by the way are "sub-Saharan" did keep records, and they are recorded in numerous tombs and temples in the Nile Valley, along with surviving papyri, books and admin records, and said records do mention European locations with which they traded like Greece for example. Whoops- there goes your "talking point Number 2".. lol..
3) Give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
The Black Africans of the Nile Valley recorded said planets in their own language on the walls of tombs, temples and admin records as already noted above.. Look up the Egyptian and Nubian languages yourself. The burden of proof is on you. And the peoples of Ethiopia have long identified said planets in their own ancient Geez language. Look it up yourself, no one is going to spoonfeed you.
https://tseday./2008/09/14/ethiopian-astronomy/
www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/heavens.html#obj99.1
4) Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi by Black Africans extant anywhere in Black African that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates. Also do not quote any European.
I have already given credible scholarship that testifies to the use of Nsibidi for histories, court records etc, before Europeans came. It is quite enough. The burden of proof is on you to disprove what the scholars report. And If you are so concerned by EUropean sources- then be consistent and apply the same rule to yourself- you should not be using them either. As to Nsibidi:
"However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D'Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many goldweights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system. As with the Malian systems of graphic signs, knowledge of nsibidi was often acquired within the initiation societies, but unlike the Malian ones, nsibidi signs were often tattooed on the body or dramatically enacted through gestures."
--Kevin Shllingford (2004) "Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa" - Encyclopedia of African History
and
Historian Ogbu Kalu described the functions of the Nsibidi literature more broadly to comprise “identity label, public notice, private warning, declaration of taboos [and] amorous messages, reckoning of goods and money, and method of keeping of records and decorations.”
Kalu, O. 1980. “Writing in Pre-Colonial Africa: A Case Study of Nsibidi.” In African Cultural Development. O. Kalu, ed., 76-83.
Trying to set up fake strawman arguments by claiming some other user account started them, and that you are "replying" to "refute" them fails miserably. They still remain strawmen. Deal with the data at hand, which debunks your claims and approach.
1 Like
---------------------------------------- -----------------------------
Re: How Can Africa Break Lose From Western Control by Zarahanair: 6:08am On Oct 29, 2016
PabloAfricanus says:
I will rehash in plain language my points for your benefit.
You can "rehash" all the points you claim- they still remain dubious as already demonstrated in detail above.
First off, it was not the Europeans who are "claiming" ancient Egypt using "sources" foreign to them.
THEY conquered and ruled Egypt...severally under the Greeks, Romans, French and English.
And they have better records and histories about Egypt than anyone in sub saharan Africa.
You could start by disproving that point.
LMAO. Attempting to wriggle away from the exposure of your nonsense- it will not work. At issue above, among many other things, is your claim lamenting use of "European" sources by credible African/Afro-American students and writers. So again, if you are so concerned about "European" sources, why are you yourself writing in English and also using European sources?
And Afri/Afro_amer students are not using sources "foreign" to Egypt when they discuss the African foundation of Kemet. In fact, their STARTING POINT is the documentation left behind by the peoples of Kemet themselves. We know for example that the Dynasties sprung from the south, not because of "foreign" sources, but because the Egyptians themselves said so. On top of the written sources are archaeology data. These data whether they be inscriptions, pottery, tools, or buildings are themselves the product of the people of Kemet. They produced their own documentation. And they clearly show that African foundation- as expert mainstream scholars following the data acknowledge. You keep trying to downplay or deny this data, and keep on failing miserably.
Sorry, you are debunked again.
[image below]
To illustrate the fact that this topic is way over you, the Europeans have the AVAILABLE WRITTEN works of European historians
like Herodotus, Aristotle, Socrates, Julius Caesar to reference when they discuss Egypt or any other peoples they had historical dealings with.
Wrong again. Kemet is thousands of years older than Herodotus, Aristotle, etc. ANY STUDY OF KEMET BEGINS WITH THE WRITINGS AND DATA LEFT BEHIND BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Only a dummy would begin with Herodotus or Aristotle. LMAO, get a clue dude...
So they have never had any need to quote you, your grandfather or your village chiefs...who by the way they know NEVER left any WRITTEN records available ANYWHERE for referencing.
Laughable BS. As already shown the people of Kemet left behind their own written record. The people of Nubia and Cush also left behind their own written record, and the Cushite empire is partly a sub-Saharan entity. The people of Auxum in NE Africa which also is in Sub-Saharan Africa left behind plenty of writing. So why would these people need to quote Herodotus?
Your colonial masters produced comprehensive and publicly available "intelligence reports" on all the tribes/ethnic groups they pacified.
Their records, photographs and comments are largely what you and your ilk fall back on when they need academic references on precolonial history.
Sign, completely off base. Any credible student of Kemet begins with the documentation left behind by the peoples of the Nile Valley including Nubia. They don't begin with colonial administrators.
So, the joke is on you. The onus is on you to prove to me why you cannot tell your story without referencing "external" or "foreign" sources.
Hapless one, I have already proven you wrong multiple times above. We know from Egyptian records forr example that the dynasties started in the south and rose to dominate all of Egypt, and were not the product of "wandering Caucasoids." Not only is the joke on YOU, but you yoself are a joke that cannot grasp such elementary matters.
A mere challenge to tell me what any of the over 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria or any of the ethnic groups in sub Saharan africa call the Sphinx
How laughable, and irrelevant. Why would Nigerians have to call the Sphinx anything? Your diversionary tactic fails. Let's get back to your failures- you cannot even grasp elementary geography of Africa, and cannot even grasp the fact that peoples of the Nile Valley documented their own history- which is the starting point for any inquiry. Irrelevant trivia about what Nigerians call the SPhinx is just that- irrelevance. If Nigerians call the creature "sphinx" using the Greek language label- OK they called it "Sphinx". A challenge for you is the say what the Egyptians called the same creature in their own language.
You are the one who has been playing the validation game. Not me. I have reiterated that going the route you lots are following is just
playing "catch up" with the whites. A son of a rich man only needs to display his father's wealth. No need for long arguments or theses or validation.
The Swedes you mentioned do not go about claiming Rome or her imperial history.
Neither are they going about coming up with claims and counter claims about the Greek Pantheon.
The temples of Odin and Freya at Upsalla are there for anyone who wants to know about ancient Swedish history.
You are hopelessly confused. There is no "catch up" to be played. The hard data on the African foundation of Egypt is a fact, hard facts verified by credible mainstream scholarship- which itself begins with, and depends on, the hard data left behind by the peoples of the Nile Valley. Africans don't have to "catch up" on anything- the facts are what they are. And there may be temples to Odin and Freya in Sweden, but why is it that you do not demand they produce a temple to Zeus to validate that they are EUropean? Not only are you confused, you are hypocritical as well. You seem to demand that pyramids appear in Nigeria to "prove" Egyptians are Africans, but demand nothing equivalent for Europe where your beloved white people are concerned. Why the hypocritical double standard?
You lots are the ones trying so hard to prove ancestory/links between ancient Egypt, Nubia...and the numerous ethnic groups in sub Saharan African.
There is nothing to "try" proving. The facts already demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians share several links with sib-Saharan Africans- whether it be skeletal data, dental, cultural or genetic. Sorry- you yet again fail.
The fact that you consider Kush, Axum, Nubia...a people long gone from the pages of living history, whose only claim to having lived are the numerous artifacts they left...are an extension of the living sub Saharan peoples of Africa...show the level of your inferiority complex. Let me help you out.
Laughable rubbish. Let me help YOU out dummy. Axum IS in Sub-Saharan Africa. Lol.. And the Kushite empire extended down into what is today "sub-Saharan" Africa. Your ignorance constantly keeps being demonstrated. You certainly could use some "help."..
[image below]
A better way to "expose" my so-called "lack of elementary knowledge" would go along these lines:
"Come to Douala,Bini, Kano, Kumasi, Ouagadogou,Kinshasa and see the same pyramids available in Nubia. The same hieroglyphs you see in the tombs of Kerma and Nubia are faithfully replicated all across the peoples of the african continent. You would show and prove that the same way pyramids and megalithic structures found in Egypt were found to be the same as the ones found in Nubia...
LMAO another round of rubbish, and another exposure of your hypocrisy.. Why do pyramids have to appear in Kumasi to "prove" anything? Let's flip your hypocrisy back on you. How come huge classical temples to the Greek gods do not appear in northern Europe to prove, as you laughably say, "the unbroken lineage" of Europeaness or whiteness? Can you take on my challenge hypocrite?
Are you not proud of the Wolofs, Fulanis, Mandinkas, Bantus, Yorubas and Zulus?
Are the The Black Africans of the Nile Valley the only people with any history, culture or achievements worth celebrating?
LMAO-you are not fooling anyone with your childish diversionary tactics. Any credible student of African history acknowledges and celebrates that the Wolofs, Fulani, Zulu etc are PART of the overall African mosaic, just as Kemet is PART of that mosaic. Whoever said they "only" study the Nile Valley? You are not fooling anyone with your silly strawman.
And there YOU go again with your hypocrisy. If people want to study the Black Africans of the Nile Valley they are perfectly entitled to- they have credible scholarship at hand as already shown. And they ALSO study other areas of Africa as well, as groaning library shelves show, which they are also entitled to do. Who made you "arbiter" of what students of African history are "supposed" to study?
Why is your "approval" worth anything?
1) You still have not told me what the Wolofs or Yorubas call Venus or Jupiter. On demand you can actually google what the Indians, Chinese, Aztec, Mayas, Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, Romans, Greeks,Chinese...and Ethiopians...call any of the known planets in the solar system.
LOL your diversionary blatherings still fail. You are the one who keeps on denying or downplaying the African foundations of Egypt, and you are the one who demands that unless pyramids show up somewhere in West Africa, then they are not part of an African reality or mosaic. Yet hypocritically you do not apply the same reasoning to white Europe. Your diversioanry "challenges" fail. The burden of proof is on you to refute the detailed scholarship on the African foundation demonstrates. And while you are at it- you have not told me what the Egyptians called Venus or Jupiter etc in their own language.
2) You asserted that "black africans gave Europeans civilization" by your all the proofs and claims of your Afrocentric postulations, which I'd rather not rehash.
Actually I didn't. That is your diversionary strawman in an attempt to wriggle away and provide cover for the thorough debunking of your nonsensical claims, and exposure of your hypocrisy, as detailed herein.
3) Why are you just stuck on only the Ethiopians, Nubians and Egyptians? Are they the only groups of BLACK PEOPLES living in Africa?
Does your own ethnic group not count for anything?
Actually all the above are "my own ethnic group" Sorry... And who ever said they are the "only" groups of black people in Africa? This is yet another strawman to cover up your exposure.
If you claim to be a master's degree or a bachelor's degree holder, when challenged to produce your thesis or project work...would it make sense to start quoting the works of "other students" or "colleagues of yours" as evidence that you actually completed a final year thesis?
Why not produce a printed copy of your thesis to silence all doubters once and for all?
LOL you are a bit thick. We do not have to use "other student" anything. The peoples of the Nile Valley provided us plenty of documentation and data that we start with, and that we depend on to make inquiries and draw conclusions. The "printed copies" so to speak, are already in place, produced in situ by the Africans of the Nile Valley.
I am familiar with Ibibio, Efik, Igbo and Kalabari lands. I understand the culture and history. I am even a fluent speaker of several Nigerian languages. You on the other hand, appear to have acquired your knowledge off the internet.
LOL, I have already laid out detailed scholarship debunking almost every claim you attempt to make. Why should anyone rely on your assertion that you "are familiar" with this and that? Says who? You? One already debunked thoroughly? But let's play along with your supposed expertise.
Your knowledge of the so called Nsibidi is off the mark.
So you say, but can produce nothing that can refute the hard scholarship already shown. You keep saying such and such is "known to you." What YOU CLAIM to know is irrelevant. What COUNTS is credible scholarship and facts that you can bring to the table. So far all you have produced is your own dubious self-assertions bout how you are "familiar" with this, and how such and such is "known" to you". Seriously dude?
But the point apparently eludes you. You do not know anyone who writes in Nsibidi. If you had to read a text written in Nsibidi today to save your life, you'd be a dead man.
But the point already made eludes YOU. The question is not if Nsibidi is active today as it was in the past. The entire point is that the Nisbidi writing system existed in Africa before the coming of Arabs and Europeans. You downplayed or denied this earlier in this thread, and when debunked, you try a diversionary shift as to whether Nsibidi is active or not today. No one is being fooled by your diversions.
Because Nsibidi never functioned as a general system of writing or record keeping for the Ejagham, Ekoi, Efik, Ibibio and Igbo peoples who used it. There is no single record, book or scroll...with a name...available today that was written in Nsibidi before, during or after precolonial times.
There you go again with your hypocritical double-standards. Samples of writing appear the world over without them having to be bound in a book or scroll to "validate" them. Books or scrolls do not always survive intact. Furthermore "books" or "scrolls" are often made by compiling of scraps of writings here and there from oral narratives into a whole. This scholars have done. Who says they have to create any "book" with a "name" to "prove" something? The earliest full written copy of the epic European oral poem "Beowulf" for example exists without a name or title. It is only years later that someone decided to slap a "name" on it and this is what it is known by today. OK for Europeans- you give them a pass. But when it comes to Africa you hypocritically demand that some "book with a name" must be produced to "validate" African peoples' efforts.
Scholars have compiled Nsibidi into a number of collections with "names" as shown below. Yet it is only in Africa that you demand "something with a name" to "prove" that African writing systems existed. Such hypocrisy speaks volumes. I have already given the scholarship, and examples of Nsibidi have been compiled by the scholars in question. They burden of proof is on you who (a) deny that any writing system existed before the Arabs or Europeans, and (b) now deny that Nsibidi writings exist. Credible scholars refute your claim. Your self-assertion bout how you "are familiar" with this and that or how you are "fluent in several Nigerian languages" are mere diversionary strawmen. They don't mean diddly. The onus is on you to prove credible scholars wrong. Just taking your word for it bout how such and such is "known to me" is not good enough. Why should anyone take your word for it when your lack of knowledge and hypocrisy has been already comprehensively demonstrated above?
[image below]
Maybe you could be the first author to write in Nsibidi. Care to take on the challenge?
Why should anyone take up irrelevant and diversionary "challenges" when you have failed repeatedly to back up your claims and have been comprehensively debunked? And there are complete writings in Nsibidi collected by scholars, including stories and court cases, as already referenced.
Rather you ended up quoting other peoples research and slinging as usual a mish mash of Google search results.
There is no Google "mish mash," only hard scholarship and data that expose your lack of knowledge and your hypocrisy.
