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Post by djehuti on Oct 10, 2024 0:08:28 GMT -5
^ Ironically, Brazil is the nation with the largest population of people of African descent in the entire Western hemisphere. People like to complain about Afrocentrics but they do have a point that Egypt is in Africa and the ancient natives of that country were not exactly the fair-skinned types people portray them to be which holds true for their modern descendants. At the same time I don't think these Afrocentrics do themselves any favors when they use West African models to portray Egyptians when there are plenty of modern Baladi and Nubians who fit the part. Again, if they would use modern Baladi as models the Eurocentrics will be the ones looking stupid.
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Post by archaeologist on Oct 10, 2024 8:12:58 GMT -5
It is also a bit ironic that Zahi Hawass accused Cicero Moraes of being influenced by Afrocentric groups. At the same time Moraes got heat from for example King's Monologue who says that his reconstructions are whitewashed. I once read that Tom Björklund when he made his portrait of the Danish WHG girl Lola got accused by some to have whitewashed her, and by others to have black painted her. Seems reconstructions and artistic representations of ancient people can sometimes be sensitive stuff. Lola, a hunter gatherer girl from Lolland, Danmark whose DNA was retrievedfrom a "chewing gum" made of birch resin. She lived about 5700 years ago. The depiction was considered too dark skinned by some and too light skinnedby others.When it comes to the Baladi and Nubians in Egypt it seems that many have more or less forgot that they exist.
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Post by archaeologist on Oct 10, 2024 8:30:40 GMT -5
Here is a site where you can find many of Cicero Moraes facial reconstructions Forensic Facial Reconstructions
He also got some heat from Egyptians who thought his reconstruction of Nazlet Khater 2 was "black painted"
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Post by thelioness on Oct 10, 2024 17:17:35 GMT -5
Amenhotep I was the son of Ahmose I and Ahmose-Nefertari. The Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities is the Egyptian government organization which serves to protect and preserve the heritage and ancient history of Egypt. In December 2019 it was merged into the Ministry of Tourism with Khaled al-Anani retaining his function. He was replaced by Ahmed Issa as Minister of Tourism and Antiquities in a cabinet reshuffle on 13 August 2022.
History
It was formed from the Supreme Council of Antiquities in 2011[2] during the presidency of Hosni Mubarak to deal with the security and theft of Egyptian antiquities.
Past ministers Zahi Hawass 31 January 2011 – 3 March 2011 Mamdouh Eldamaty June 2014- March 2016 Khaled al-Anani 23 March 2016 August 2022
Cicero Moraes makes many reconstructions for magazines of billed as so and so's "appearance revealed for the first time". He does tons of them for magazines, all different time periods and places. The Egyptian government does not allow Morares access to the mummies so he often works from photos and then uses them to create 3D imaging on the computer. As we can see above there were some CT scans for Amenhotep I It's hard for me to look his Amenhotep I here because it is just kind of cheesy looking just on an artistic level.
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 10, 2024 20:58:20 GMT -5
^ Ironically, Brazil is the nation with the largest population of people of African descent in the entire Western hemisphere. People like to complain about Afrocentrics but they do have a point that Egypt is in Africa and the ancient natives of that country were not exactly the fair-skinned types people portray them to be which holds true for their modern descendants. At the same time I don't think these Afrocentrics do themselves any favors when they use West African models to portray Egyptians when there are plenty of modern Baladi and Nubians who fit the part. Again, if they would use modern Baladi as models the Eurocentrics will be the ones looking stupid. Nobody in Egypt today is probably what we would call "pristine" due to all the foreigners the country has absorbed over millennia, but I agree that dark-skinned Upper Egyptians (and maybe some North Sudanese) are probably our best modern proxies for the original Kemetians (i.e. predynastic Upper Egyptians) in terms of physical appearance. I can't think of any population living today who would come closer. Sometimes, you gotta work with what's the best available. BTW, I wish there artists attempted more reconstructions of predynastic Egyptian specimens. New Kingdom and later mummies get all the attention with these reconstruction efforts.
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Post by djehuti on Oct 11, 2024 4:03:13 GMT -5
^ You bring up another excellent point. Some people try to play stupid and pretend that the general populace of a modern nation represents what the ancient populace looks like. They pretend the average Cairene Egyptian today would look like what the average ancient Egyptian from Menefer (Memphis) would look like, yet nobody expects the average person in Brazil's capital of Brasília to resemble the average person who lived in that area just 1,000 years ago! Yet you have folks like certain trolls from Egyptsearch who would use Alexandrian Egyptians to represent the ancient people of Kmt! LOL
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 11, 2024 14:34:46 GMT -5
Anyway, has anyone checked out the work of a dude on Instagram named usiriah? His Egyptian portrayals are just dope!
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Post by kel on Oct 11, 2024 23:32:19 GMT -5
usuriah ? still too arabized.
Kings monologue and Nidia are the best of class.
AE were Indigenous Black Africans.
best approximations for them are Afar,Beja, Nubian, Sudanese, and West Africans.
The reconstructions must reflect that or cannot be taken seriously.
many modern Baladí look mixed with Turk/Arab.
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Post by kel on Oct 11, 2024 23:35:32 GMT -5
Still not "African" enough. but a step in the right direction.....I guess There is still this trend to try and make them racially ambiguous/indeterminate using "North African" as cover.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 12, 2024 1:58:29 GMT -5
The Nefertiti is almost perfect, just the ears don't match. Nidia has two versions www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TJSbYmvBw&t=35sI made the ears even larger to match the sculpture ears . This reminds me of some of the depictions of the Buddha with large ears Note the chin on the sculpture is a little more masculine, that bulge at the bottom is wider. Another thing is the brow ridge on the sculpture is very thick, thicker than in the reconstruction the cheeks are a little less defined than in the reconstructions, slightly fatter but it overall has a good degree of likeness to the sculpture. I'm not sure how they determined the identity here how certain it is
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Post by thelioness on Oct 12, 2024 4:12:53 GMT -5
(upper left colorized version of upper middle sculpture) Nefertiti, various Cicero Morares doesn't use the art just photos of the skull Nidia and King's Monologue pick one or more pieces of art but as we can see the art varies. King's Monologue also refers to mummy photos if there are any. Other reconstructions artists may have access to the skull and have a CT scanned skull made in a 3D printer and develop a real 3D model But what they build on in it, the fleshier parts of the face, skin tone and hair can be speculative in any reconstruction case. I think if you are going to use art colorize the actual art and stay true to it, don't make the ears smaller, etc or try to make it more attractive or catering to a demographic One of the two female mummies found in KV21 has been suggested as the body of Nefertiti. DNA analysis did not yield enough data to make a definitive identification but confirmed she was a member of the Eighteenth Dynasty royal line.[49] CT-scanning revealed she was about 45 at the time of her death; her left arm had been bent over her chest in the 'queenly' pose. The possible identification is based on her association with the mummy tentatively identified as Ankhesenamun. It is suggested that just as a mother and daughter (Tiye and the Younger Lady) were found lying together in KV35, the same was true of these mummies.[50]
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maverick5
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Post by maverick5 on Oct 12, 2024 7:03:46 GMT -5
usuriah ? still too arabized. Kings monologue and Nidia are the best of class. AE were Indigenous Black Africans. best approximations for them are Afar,Beja, Nubian, Sudanese, and West Africans.The reconstructions must reflect that or cannot be taken seriously. many modern Baladí look mixed with Turk/Arab. Not West Africans (outside of maybe Fulani) as @djehut correctly pointed out as all the available craniometric data point to the Ancient Egyptians best resembling Nubians and Horners.....
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Post by kel on Oct 12, 2024 17:34:46 GMT -5
First. Bullshit.
Secondly, the issue is not just one of solely craniometrics but is multidisciplinary.
Nile Valley Basin physiognomy is the best way to describe them with depending on the dynasty localization in Nubia/Sudan
ultimately of so called 'Niger Congo's origin.
So. Yes. West African. this is why Ramsés III paternal haplogroup E1b1a is shared with 90% of modern West Africans
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Post by kel on Oct 12, 2024 17:41:43 GMT -5
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.1330830105"Multivariate analyses of crania demonstrate wide variation but also suggest an indigenous craniometric pattern common to both late dynastic northern Egypt and the coastal Maghreb region. Both tropical African and European metric phenotypes, as well intermediate patterns, are found in mid-Holocene Maghreb sites. Early southern predynastic Egyptian crania show tropical African affinities,...."
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maverick5
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Post by maverick5 on Oct 13, 2024 8:40:30 GMT -5
First. Bullshit. Secondly, the issue is not just one of solely craniometrics but is multidisciplinary. Nile Valley Basin physiognomy is the best way to describe them with depending on the dynasty localization in Nubia/Sudan ultimately of so called 'Niger Congo's origin. So. Yes. West African. this is why Ramsés III paternal haplogroup E1b1a is shared with 90% of modern West Africans Haplogroups alone don't mean much when it comes to overall ancestry and phenotype. Plus Ramses III is only one A. Egyptian pharaoh who got e1b1a it's not like 20 of them got e1b1a. As I mentioned previously we have decades of craniometric data to help us determine what the Ancient Egyptians looked like and Nubians and Ho rners are our best candidates.
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