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Post by djehuti on Oct 22, 2024 11:34:08 GMT -5
^ Not necessarily. Limbo's point was that some of those tall figures depicted in prehistoric rock art were also stocky or bulky in build which could be a sign of cold adaption in contrast to the lean, slender builds typical of tropical adaptation. The Saracens were themselves slender built as well as tall.
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Post by anansi on Oct 22, 2024 21:09:43 GMT -5
^ My point was to differentiate Saracens from Moors. The former is nowadays often identified as 'Arabs' when Arab identity came much later. Both Saracens and Moors were described as 'black' the Saracens were blacks from the east while Moors were (later in Medieval times) blacks from the west. I've already explained the etymology of the word 'Moor' and how they were described here. That extra appellatives were attached that word later on due to becoming familiar with the diversity of peoples in the Maghreb does not change the meaning and nature of the root word 'Moor'. By the way, the same Roman mosaic in Italy showing the Egyptians as black shows the Arabs as white which supports the theory of 'Arabs' proper having a northern origin and not from deep Arabia itself from whence the Saracens come from. Roman depiction of Egyptians visa vi ArabsSaracen's Head (South Holland, England)Saracen's Head Pub sign [[quote/ ] Speaking of the term Saracen while not racialized as the term Moor of the west could still be applied interchangeably .www.dema-coins.com/2023/05/denarius-saracenus-coin-Hungary.htmlIn 1343, King Louis the Great had new coins minted, but later returned to the use of regular circulating currency. On the denarii, the Saracen head refers to the chamber lessee, a person named Jakab Saracen. The territory of Havasalföld was previously part of Cumania, and Pope Gregory sent a legate to Kunország to convert the Cumans. In this region, Ishmaelite merchants known as Saracens had lived since the time of the Hungarian conquest, just like in Hungary. Over time, they assimilated and practiced their ancient trade until the reign of King Louis the Great (1387-1437). In a document from 1352, Jakab and János Saracenus appear as counts and chamberlains of Pécs-Szerém and Buda. The coat of arms of the Saracen family from Mesztegnye features a Saracen head, which also appears on several coins of King Louis the Great. Perhaps the Saracen-headed coat of arms from Havasalföld mentioned by Koller could also refer to the coat of arms of a Saracen-origin royal representative, just like the Saracen head on the coins of King Louis the Great, as mentioned by László Réthy in his work published in 1880: "From the famous Mesztegnye Saracen family, under King Louis I, directors of several chamber counties, lessees of the entire salt mines and tithes in Hungary and Transylvania emerged. Our industrious Ishmaelites even appeared in the era of the Anjou kings, shining more brightly than under the Árpáds. From the famous Mesztegnye Saracen family, under King Louis I, directors of several chamber counties, lessees of the entire salt mines and tithes in Hungary and Transylvania emerged. And what is particularly noteworthy: on the gold of Louis I and several other coins, the Saracen coat of arms, a "Saracen head" emblem, is applied. In the coat of arms of Bessarabia, the third territory of Olföld, we find something similar; there, "three Saracen heads" appear. We consider the two coats of arms as so-called speaking coats of arms, which address the owner by name; one says: Saracen; the other: Saracens. Accordingly, Bessarabia, in its coat of arms, designates the territory inhabited by Saracens." hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Szerecseny_c%C3%ADmer[Note: The provided text appears to be a historical description mentioning King Louis the Great, the Saracen family, and the use of Saracen heads on coins and coats of arms.] Maugis fighting the Saracen Noiron in Aigremont, in Renaud de Montauban. David Aubert, Bruges, 1462–1470. Painting from the 14th century depicting the monk Deodatus raising a golden chalice to the sky. Deodatus's Arab jailer is playing chess with one of his courtiers, while the African Caliph, the monk's new master, tries to convince him of the futility of his prayer. citascacchi.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/deodato-e-gli-scacchi/
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Post by thelioness on Oct 22, 2024 23:28:02 GMT -5
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2947089/
Eur J Hum Genet. 2009 Jan 21;17(6):848–852. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2008.258
Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe
Cristian Capelli 1,
Abstract
To investigate the male genetic legacy of the Arab rule in southern Europe during medieval times, we focused on specific Northwest African haplogroups and identified evolutionary close STR-defined haplotypes in Iberia, Sicily and the Italian peninsula. Our results point to a higher recent Northwest African contribution in Iberia and Sicily in agreement with historical data. southern Italian regions known to have experienced long-term Arab presence also show an enrichment of Northwest African types. The forensic and genomic implications of these findings are discussed.
After the collapse of the Roman Empire in Europe, the Arab dominance across the Mediterranean was one of the most impressive historical events that occurred in this region. Arabs appeared on the southern shores of the Mediterranean in the early seventh century and quickly conquered North Africa. They spread their language and religion to the native Northwest (NW) African Berber populations, which represented the bulk of the Muslim army that later conquered southern Europe.
1, 2 Referred to either as Moors (in Iberia) or Saracens (in South Italy and Sicily), their arrival in Europe dates to 711 AD, rapidly subduing most of Iberia and Sicily (831 AD).
Given the historical indication of a prevalently Berber origin for the Arab groups invading southern Europe,2, 3 we focused on NW African specific haplogroups as markers of MNA contribution to this region. Haplogroups E1b1b1b (M81 derived), E1b1b1a-β (M78 derived chromosomes showing the rare DYS439 allele 10) and a subset of J1 (M267 derived) were identified in the literature as being NW Africa specific, together accounting for between 58 and 90% of males in populations from this area, but never above 13% in Europe.8
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www.defenderofjerusalem.com/saracen-armies.htmlSaracen ArmiesThe crusader kingdoms consistently faced an enemy that significantly outnumbered them and it is often this sense of "massive hordes" that dominates descriptions of Saracen armies. Yet while the size of Saracen armies was certainly a factor in their success, it was by no means their only significant feature. On the contrary, Saracen armies were extremely complex and understanding them better helps explain Frankish tactics. Perhaps the most important yet often forgotten characteristic of Saracen armies was their ethnic diversity. The term "Saracen" simply means "Easterner" and referred collectively to the Muslim opponents of the crusaders. Yet while the use of this term is convenient, it plasters over and so disguises the ethnic differences within the "Saracen" armies. The "Saracen" armies included not only Arabs and Turks, the two largest ethnic groups engaged in warfare against the crusaders. They also included Kurds (Saladin himself was a Kurd), Nubians, and Berbers. Furthermore, the Arab elements need to be sub-divided into Syrians, Bedouins and Egyptians, and the term "Turk" actually covers a variety of Turkmenish tribes.
Σαρακηνός • (Sarakēnós) m (genitive Σαρακηνοῦ); second declension (Koine) a desert-dwelling Arabic or para-Arabic nomad of North Arabia; a bedouin (Byzantine) a Muslim; a Saracen
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Post by djehuti on Oct 23, 2024 11:55:52 GMT -5
^ Just like the term Moor, so too was the term Saracen which originally was a specific ethnonym later expanded into an umbrella term for Muslims in general. But make no mistake there was a difference between the original Saracens proper and the original 'Arabs' before the latter was also expanded to include all Arabic speakers. The original Saracens were described as tall and black in contrast to how the ethnic Arabs looked like below. This among other reasons is why Saracens were NOT the same as Arabs. The former were associated with the Ummayad Caliphate while the latter with the Abassid Caliphate. The two dynasties hated each other and apparently had different cultural practices.
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 23, 2024 12:40:06 GMT -5
^ Not necessarily. Limbo's point was that some of those tall figures depicted in prehistoric rock art were also stocky or bulky in build which could be a sign of cold adaption in contrast to the lean, slender builds typical of tropical adaptation. The Saracens were themselves slender built as well as tall. The context I was referring to was a discussion he had on ForumBiodiversity with some melanophobic Somali trolls. He told them that, while modern Somalis are fairly short, their original North African ancestors who had migrated south to East Africa at some point were quite tall. Modern Somalis being short was a product of Eurasian and sub-Saharan ancestry they had accrued over the centuries. At least that is what I recall.
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Post by archaeologist on Oct 23, 2024 14:30:38 GMT -5
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Post by archaeologist on Oct 23, 2024 14:43:24 GMT -5
It seems a bit hard to find contemporary depictions of Saracens and/or Moors from the initial years of the conquest of parts of Southern Europe. Thus the picture of Maguis fighting the Saracen Noiron which anansi posted is from the 15th century, but it depicts events that are supposed to have happened during the time of Charlemagne (748-814). Same with the depiction of the monk Deodato (or Deodatus) which is made in the 14th century. But Deodatus died ca. 679 AD. So many times there is a big time depht between the actual event and the depictions of it. Here is another example of a visual image of an event that took place hundreds of years earlier. Charles defeating the Saracens at the battle of Poitiers (from Grandes Chroniques de France, France, 1332-1350. British Library, London). But the real battle of Poitiers took place in 732 between the Franks and the Umayyads. Would be interesting with pictures from the time when the events took place.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 23, 2024 15:36:36 GMT -5
The original Saracens were described as tall and black in contrast to how the ethnic Arabs looked like below. This among other reasons is why Saracens were NOT the same as Arabs. The former were associated with the Ummayad Caliphate while the latter with the Abassid Caliphate. The two dynasties hated each other and apparently had different cultural practices. So Arabs are indistinguishable in skin color from the average Western European like in the the above mosaic? Saracen was a term used both in Greek and Latin writings between the 5th and 15th centuries to refer to the people who lived in and near what was designated by the Romans as Arabia Petraea and Arabia Deserta.
Many would argue by that being people from the above area they were Arabs but if Saracens were not Arabs then what are other ethnic names for them? The Mehri , also known as the al-Mahrah tribe (Arabic: قبيلة المهرة), are an Arabian ethnic group primarily inhabiting South Arabia especially in the Al-Mahra Governorate in Yemen and the island of Socotra What about these people? They are classified as Arabs however "According to Y-DNA analysis by Černý et al. (2009), most inhabitants of Socotra, some of whom are Mehri descendants, belong to the basal haplogroup J." Brown skinned people with the haplogroup most common in Arabs, J, www.workaway.info/en/host/784887151531This Bedouin man in Jordan is too dark to be an Arab?
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limbo
Craftsperson
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Post by limbo on Oct 25, 2024 14:15:44 GMT -5
Looking at Dana's article on the Saracens, I note that their being of tall stature in addition to have dark skin is a recurring theme in medieval European descriptions. It makes me think back to how limbo described some prehistoric North African or North African-related populations, especially those with relatively low sub-Saharan admixture, as being relatively tall. Might there be a connection there? I thought the word 'Saracen' was often used by Euros in the Middle Ages to lump various Islamic ppl together, in the same way that Muslim writers used the word 'Frank' to mean more than the Franks proper (ie at some point they used it to talk about Christians in general, eg in crusade contexts).
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 25, 2024 14:22:40 GMT -5
Looking at Dana's article on the Saracens, I note that their being of tall stature in addition to have dark skin is a recurring theme in medieval European descriptions. It makes me think back to how limbo described some prehistoric North African or North African-related populations, especially those with relatively low sub-Saharan admixture, as being relatively tall. Might there be a connection there? I thought the word 'Saracen' was often used by Euros in the Middle Ages to lump various Islamic ppl together, in the same way that Muslim writers used the word 'Frank' to mean more than the Franks proper (ie at some point they used it to talk about Christians in general, eg in crusade contexts).
I know the term "Moor" originally referred to the Mauri people of the Maghreb but later became a synonym for both Muslims of various ethnic origins as well as darker-skinned people in general. Maybe the same happened to "Saracen"?
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limbo
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Post by limbo on Oct 25, 2024 14:29:29 GMT -5
^ Not necessarily. Limbo's point was that some of those tall figures depicted in prehistoric rock art were also stocky or bulky in build which could be a sign of cold adaption in contrast to the lean, slender builds typical of tropical adaptation. The Saracens were themselves slender built as well as tall. Yes. Tall-slender and tall-bulky, with the latter seemingly being more exclusively found in North Africa. The former included some Mesolithic Nubian types (eg Jebel Sahaba), though I'm guessing Brandon is talking about the tall-slander Rift Valley population, in his question about Saracens.
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 25, 2024 14:31:46 GMT -5
Yes. Tall-slender and tall-bulky, with the latter seemingly being more exclusively found in North Africa. The former included some Mesolithic Nubian types (eg Jebel Sahaba), though I'm guessing Brandon is talking about the tall-slander Rift Valley population, in his question about Saracens. Yes, that Rift Valley is what I had in mind. Like I said, I was thinking back to that conversation you had with some Horner trolls on ForumBiodiversity in which you contrasted their "midget" stature with that of taller North Africans from the region who had less Eurasian and sub-Saharan ancestry.
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limbo
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Post by limbo on Oct 25, 2024 15:10:30 GMT -5
Yes. Tall-slender and tall-bulky, with the latter seemingly being more exclusively found in North Africa. The former included some Mesolithic Nubian types (eg Jebel Sahaba), though I'm guessing Brandon is talking about the tall-slander Rift Valley population, in his question about Saracens. Yes, that Rift Valley is what I had in mind. Like I said, I was thinking back to that conversation you had with some Horner trolls on ForumBiodiversity in which you contrasted their "midget" stature with that of taller North Africans from the region who had less Eurasian and sub-Saharan ancestry. (For those who weren't there, the use of the word 'midget' in that conversation was to defend Africans who were at times under attack by certain East Africans, who were falsely claiming classical references to tall Africans as referring to them, while dismissing other East Africans with a better claim, as 'mere Bantu').
As far as that thread you mention, I remember also drawing attention to Tutsi sub-populations (let's avoid linking the tall stature seemingly inherited from the Rift Valley, to a Tutsi ruling aristocracy, since I don't know if that's what it was), for preserving the Rift Valley tall stature better than other East Africans.
Relevance? I normally don't think of the Rift Valley population as surviving into the common era, and as being contemporary with (ancestors of) Saracens (nor do I normally think of 'black' in texts as necessarily describing dark skin, accurately). But the Tutsi example could show a relatively late survival of this population, which could then open the door for genetic influence on (certain) Arabians.
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Post by Brandon S. Pilcher on Oct 25, 2024 18:02:17 GMT -5
Relevance? I normally don't think of the Rift Valley population as surviving into the common era, and as being contemporary with (ancestors of) Saracens (nor do I normally think of 'black' in texts as necessarily describing dark skin, accurately). But the Tutsi example could show a relatively late survival of this population, which could then open the door for genetic influence on (certain) Arabians. My thought was that, if Dana is right about "Saracens" originally referring to a tall and dark-skinned population persisting in western Arabia into the common era, they could descend from a migration of North African people related to the Rift Valley population. That is to say, they would share common ancestry with those Rift Valley Africans rather than being their descendants.
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Post by thelioness on Oct 25, 2024 19:48:17 GMT -5
If you get caught up in endless back and forth about these European terms "Moor" and "Saracen" that they applied willy nilly in different places and periods instead refer to the tribal names in the Maghreb and the Arab Muslim dynastic names and there will be less problems. For instance the Umayyad Dynastyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_dynastyThe Umayyad dynasty (Arabic: بَنُو أُمَيَّةَ, romanized: Banū Umayya, lit. 'Sons of Umayya') or Umayyads (Arabic: الأمويون, romanized: al-Umawiyyūn) was an Arab clan within the Quraysh tribe who were the ruling family of the Caliphate between 661 and 750 and later of al-Andalus between 756 and 1031. In the pre-Islamic period, they were a prominent clan of the Meccan tribe of Quraysh, descended from Umayya ibn Abd Shams. Despite staunch opposition to the Islamic prophet Muhammad, the Umayyads embraced Islam before the former's death in 632. Pre-Islamic origins The Umayyads, or Banu Umayya, were a clan of the larger Quraysh tribe, which dominated Mecca in the pre-Islamic era.[5] The Quraysh derived prestige among the Arab tribes through their protection and maintenance of the Kaʿba, which at the time was regarded by the largely polytheistic Arabs across the Arabian Peninsula as their most sacred sanctuary. By the end of the 6th century, the Umayyads dominated the Quraysh's increasingly prosperous trade networks with Syria and developed economic and military alliances with the nomadic Arab tribes that controlled the northern and central Arabian desert expanses, affording the clan a degree of political power in the region. ____________________________________________________ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QurayshQurayshOrigins
The Quraysh's progenitor was Fihr ibn Malik, whose full genealogy, according to traditional Arab sources, was the following: Fihr ibn Malik ibn al-Nadr ibn Kinana ibn Khuzayma ibn Mudrika ibn Ilyas ibn Mudar ibn Nizar ibn Ma'add ibn Adnan. Thus, Fihr belonged to the Kinana tribe and his descent is traced to Adnan the Ishmaelite, the semi-legendary father of the "northern Arabs". According to the traditional sources, Fihr led the warriors of Kinana and Khuzayma in defense of the Kaaba, at the time a major pagan sanctuary in Mecca, against tribes from Yemen; however, the sanctuary and the privileges associated with it continued to be in the hands of the Yemeni Khuza'a tribe. The Quraysh gained their name when Qusayy ibn Kilab, a sixth-generation descendant of Fihr ibn Malik, gathered together his kinsmen and took control of the Kaaba. Prior to this, Fihr's offspring lived in scattered, nomadic groups among their Kinana relatives ___________________________________________________ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Maghreb Muslim conquest of the MaghrebThe Muslim conquest of the Maghreb (Arabic: فَتْحُ اَلْمَغْرِب, romanized: Fath al-Maghrib, lit. 'Conquest of the West') or Arab conquest of North Africa by the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates commenced in 647 and concluded in 709, when the Byzantine Empire lost its last remaining strongholds to Caliph Al-Walid I. The North African campaigns were part of the century of rapid early Muslim conquests. Luis Garcia de Valdeavellano writes: In their invasions against the Byzantines and the Berbers, the Arab chieftains had greatly extended their African dominions, and as early as the year 682 Uqba had reached the shores of the Atlantic, but he was unable to occupy Tangier, for he was forced to turn back toward the Atlas Mountains by a man who became known to history and legend as Count Julian.Moreover, as Gibbon writes, Uqba, "this Mahometan Alexander, who sighed for new worlds, was unable to preserve his recent conquests. By the universal rebellion against muslim occupation of the Greeks and Africans he was recalled from the shores of the Atlantic." On his return, a Berber-Byzantine coalition under the berber king of Altava known as Kusaila ambushed and crushed his forces near Biskra, killing Uqba and wiping out his troops. In 698, the Arabs conquered Carthage under Hassan ibn al-Nu'man and completed the conquest of the eastern Barbary coast. Anticipating attempts at Byzantine reconquest however, they decided to destroy it. The walls were torn down, the agricultural land ravaged, the aqueducts and harbors made unusable. They established their base instead at Tunis which was heavily expanded, though Kairouan remained the governor's capital until late-9th century. This was immediately followed by a Berber rebellion against the new Arab overlords and a decisive victory at the Battle of Meskiana. Gibbon writes: Under the standard of their queen Kahina, the independent tribes acquired some degree of union and discipline; and as the Moors respected in their females the character of a prophetess, they attacked the invaders with an enthusiasm similar to their own. The veteran bands of Hassan were inadequate to the defense of Africa: the conquests of an age were lost in a single day; and the Arabian chief, overwhelmed by the torrent, retired to the confines of Egypt.In 703, five years passed before Hassan received fresh troops from the caliph. Meanwhile, the people of North Africa's cities chafed under the Berber reign. Thus Hassan was welcomed upon his return, and managed to kill Kahina at the Battle of Tabarka. Gibbon writes that “the friends of civil society conspired against the savages of the land; and the royal prophetess was slain in the first battle.” The successful general Musa bin Nusair was appointed the governor of Ifriqiya. (comprising today's Tunisia, eastern Algeria, and Tripolitania) His armies brutally put down the Berbers, consisting of various faiths, who fought against the advancing Muslims. Their conquest reached the Atlantic coast in 708. He was noted for the vast number of mawla he had amassed which consisted of Berber converts to Islam and people from other regions as well. In 698-702 AD all the major capitals in the Berber states were taken definitively by the Arabs: Christian Carthago was completely destroyed, half the inhabitants were killed (only a few hundreds could escape by boats toward Byzantine Sicily) and the rest enslaved, erasing forever the main center of Greco-Roman influence in the Maghreb. Musa bin Nusair, a successful Yemeni general in the campaign, was made governor of "Ifriqiya" and given the responsibility of putting down a renewed Berber rebellion and forcefully converting the population to Islam. Musa and his two sons prevailed over the rebels, slaughtered nearly all the Christian Berber civilians of his Ifriqiya and enslaved 300,000 captives (in those years the total population of the Maghreb was around one million, and this gives an idea of the massacre and why Christianity disappeared). The caliph's portion was 60,000 of the captives. He sold into slavery these Christian Berbers (mainly in Damascus, after a deadly deportation through the desert from southern Tunisia to Egypt): the proceeds from their sale went into the Arab public treasury.
Musa ordered some initial raids on the southern coast of the Iberian Peninsula in 710. In the spring of that same year, Tariq ibn Ziyad—a Berber, a freed slave, and a Muslim general—took Tangier. Musa thereupon made him governor there, backed by an army of 6,700. The next year, 711, Musa directed Tariq to invade Hispania. Disembarking from Ceuta aboard ships provided by Julian, Tariq plunged into the Iberian Peninsula, defeated Roderic, and went on to besiege the Visigothic capital of Toledo. He and his allies also took Córdoba, Ecija, Granada, Málaga, Seville, and other cities. Due to this, the Umayyad conquest of Hispania completed the Arab conquest of North Africa. Fearing that the Byzantine Empire might reconquer it, they decided to destroy Roman Carthage in a scorched earth policy and establish their headquarters somewhere else. Its walls were torn down, its water supply cut off, the agricultural land was ravaged and its harbors made unusable.
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